what drives pricing in epoxy flooring?

I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for asking this question but I'm curious:

What drives the pricing in epoxy flooring? You have solvent-based solutions that are cheaper than their water-based counterparts. Solvent should be better than water. Then you have 100% solids (Wolverine for example - please correct me if I'm wrong) that has a high price point.
For example, for a 2 car garage, with Rustoleoum Pro it can probably be done under $300 but with Wolverine, it's going to be $1K. Is Wolverine that much of a better product to justify the $700 difference (taking these numbers out of the air so pardon me if they are inaccurate but you get my point). Sorry, I don't mean to use Wolverine as a comparison but in general, what makes one product better over another to justify the price difference?
As you can see, I would like to do my floor relatively on the cheap but I do want it to last a few years as well though.

Mike

Your question is an age old question.

but GENERALLY price is driven by how much demand is there for it vs the alternatives.

Just like when you buy tires you can pay $39 a tire or $390 a tire. BOTH fit your car. BOTH are round, and black.

SOME of the price is driven by additional steps / quality of material. SOME is driven by "Name".

ALSO price can also be driven by how much 'marketing' and 'presence' a 'brand' has.

Rustoleum is a name MOST have heard of. "Wolverine" not so much. Rustoleum just needs to sit on a shelf a HD and wait for someone to walk by. Wolverine sitting right next to it on a shelf would sit forever, based SOLEY on price and 'brand recognition'.

That being said, Rustoleum can 'cut' it's quality using their same price and still get the same amount of sales.

If Wolverine makes the same cuts in quality their product would be quickly devalued and loose ALL credibility. Sales would drop off and they may be forced to lower prices in order to sell at the perceived 'value' of their 'brand'.

BUT as to the HD products Think of it this way:

The kit includes:

7oz - 1lb of chips - Value ~ $3.00-7.00
1 sm bag of Basically dried acid - Muratic acid will do the exact same thing $3.00-6.00
then ONE gallon of 'epoxy' (value see below)
ONE Dvd - Value $0


So if the Kit costs $69 less the chips and acid figure roughly $60 for this gallon.

If the kit covers 250 SF then your cost is $.24 per Sq Ft for coating.

This is your cost for ONE COAT.

MOST Professionals and High end DIY products are at least TWO up to FOUR coats.

Chip coverage can range from 250 sf with 7 oz to 250 sf needing 25 lbs.

Chips can play a HUGE role in the final cost of your floor.

Hope this helps

Overhead, R&D (research and development), and materials cost just to name a few. Some have higher overhead and some have more research and development. Others just have a higher profit margin due to demand

Thanks.

I just want to make clear that I am in no way knocking Wolverine. Based on what I've seen here, they seem to be making an excellent product. I personally, just can't justify spending that much money on a floor. I would love to, but my wife would have my head on a platter.

mike_c70 said:

Thanks.

I just want to make clear that I am in no way knocking Wolverine. Based on what I've seen here, they seem to be making an excellent product. I personally, just can't justify spending that much money on a floor. I would love to, but my wife would have my head on a platter.

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That happens A LOT. I have had SEVERAL times the husband has paid me Part in Cash and the rest by check.

That way he could show his wife " he only paid $X"

'the epoxy floor guy' said:

...That being said, Rustoleum can 'cut' it's quality using their same price and still get the same amount of sales.

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I beg to differ. Their sales might remain the same for a while, but eventually they lose market share. Witness the plight of the Big 3 auto makers. Many people "perceive" (wrongly IMO) that their quality hasn't improved.

mike_c70 said:

Thanks.

I just want to make clear that I am in no way knocking Wolverine. Based on what I've seen here, they seem to be making an excellent product. I personally, just can't justify spending that much money on a floor. I would love to, but my wife would have my head on a platter.

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If you look at mils of thickness per dollar, Wolverine is actually LESS expensive than the others you mention.

roger55 said:

If you look at mils of thickness per dollar, Wolverine is actually LESS expensive than the others you mention.

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But how many mils is enough? Is is 25+ mils or 5 mils? There has to be point in thickness were you get diminishing returns.

mike_c70 said:

But how many mils is enough? Is is 25+ mils or 5 mils? There has to be point in thickness were you get diminishing returns.

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I'm sure you could get many different opinions on your question.

I have used UCoat-It, Rustoleum, Quikrete, EpoxyCoat and am about to use Wolverine.
From my experience, I would say 12 to 15 mils dry film thickness minimum.
Less than that and you will have imperfections from the concrete showing.

If you are on a budget, the best way to go might be with the EpoxyCoat (100% solids).
But, their system doesn't use a topcoat so the flakes just sit on top of the color coat. I wouldn't consider using flakes without a clear on top.
When I used the EpoxyCoat, I did not use the flakes.

roger55 said:

I'm sure you could get many different opinions on your question.

I have used UCoat-It, Rustoleum, Quikrete, EpoxyCoat and am about to use Wolverine.
From my experience, I would say 12 to 15 mils dry film thickness minimum.
Less than that and you will have imperfections from the concrete showing.

If you are on a budget, the best way to go might be with the EpoxyCoat (100% solids).
But, their system doesn't use a topcoat so the flakes just sit on top of the color coat. I wouldn't consider using flakes without a clear on top.
When I used the EpoxyCoat, I did not use the flakes.

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Is Rustoleum Pro not 100% solids? Both Rusto Pro and Epoxy Coat are labeled as solvent based.

mike_c70 said:

Is Rustoleum Pro not 100% solids? Both Rusto Pro and Epoxy Coat are labeled as solvent based.

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The Rustoleum I used was the water based version.
The Pro version is solvent based.
I looked at Rustoleum's web site but could not find what percent solids the Pro version is.
EpoxyCoat is 100% solids therefore it is not solvent based. They are clear that it is 100% solids on their website with 0 VOCs. I don't understand why they also say "Oil based".

I'm certainly not a chemist...but I cannot understand how a product like this is 100% solids. Meaning...wouldn't 100% solids be "solid" before application? If it's applied as a liquid, surely something must need to "flash" off or evaporate away...making it not 100% solids.

Or, is this some sort of industry speak? I'm not bashing any product here...I truly don't understand this 100% solid thing.

(As a car detail nut...I know that the carnuba waxes are not even close to 100% carnuba...more like 5%...as it is so hard and yellow that it must be blended with other things like oils, parafin, etc so that it spreads, dries, etc)

Matt M said:

I'm certainly not a chemist...but I cannot understand how a product like this is 100% solids. Meaning...wouldn't 100% solids be "solid" before application? If it's applied as a liquid, surely something must need to "flash" off or evaporate away...making it not 100% solids.

Or, is this some sort of industry speak? I'm not bashing any product here...I truly don't understand this 100% solid thing.

(As a car detail nut...I know that the carnuba waxes are not even close to 100% carnuba...more like 5%...as it is so hard and yellow that it must be blended with other things like oils, parafin, etc so that it spreads, dries, etc)

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In a 100% solids epoxy, you have 2 parts (A and B) and both parts are liquid.
When A is mixed with B, a chemical reaction is started that hardens the mix.
When curing is complete, the product is a solid with the same volume that the previous liquid parts were. Nothing is evaporated.
Normally, 100% solids epoxy has a relatively short working time (15 to 45 minutes).
Solvent based epoxy on the other hand (and water is a solvent too) have a much longer working time (2 hours or more). The solvent does evaporate from the mixed parts during the curing process leaving less volume than the original liquids after curing.

Ive seen floor paint, epocy-coat, muscle gloss, and wolverine.

I am justifying the cost for wolverine when springtime comes back. I do have a smaller garage though.

Hi Guys,

The basic question is... What drives the cost?

For us, our price is mainly based on raw material cost. We use the highest quality (mostly from American companies) products we can get our hands on! Just in case you haven't noticed, we don't do ANY marketing AT ALL! Yet, we have had another record year... October was our biggest month in the history of our company... AND... now... it looks like December will break the record further still. While other companies that make paint are 40% off or more on sales... we're strong. Quality matters... but... before I take too much credit I want to say bluntly that we believe we are sucessful because God is choosing to bless our business.

But, you have to compare apples to apples. You can look at the 'per gallon' cost but that does not give you the 'real cost'. For instance, you can get Tylenol in 100mg or 200 mg tables. The 100mg tablets are cheaper per tablet but might cost more to actually get rid of your headache. What you get is 100 mg of stuff that does you good and then a buch of filler to keep the tablet the same size as the 200 mg. With the 'per gallon' cost you could look at it the same way. You might pay less per gallon with the solvent based or waterbased, but... you're going to have a headache later! lol...

So, how do you decide? How does the average Joe define a good value? A good basic way would be to know the cost per mil per square foot. Let's face it, what good is paying 10% less to get a floor that is half as thick when it dries? Then of course, you DO have to consider the chemistry. And, we formulate at least 50 different chemistries from standard epoxies, phenolics, novolacs, vinylesters, siloxane, fluoropolymers, acrylics, polyurethanes, polyesters, acrylic epoxies, silicone epoxy, polysiloxane, polyaspartics, polyureas, AHC epoxy... the list goes on and on and on...

Here are some general properties:
Epoxies are popular because the have awesome adhesion, toughness, chemical resistance, and duability. On the negative side, they will chalk and yellow in sunlight. Urethanes (aliphatic) can not be applied as thick but are exterior durable in sunlight. They typically do not have chemical resistance in the range of epoxy type chemistry. Some urethanes are more abrasion resistant than epoxies but this is very formulation dependant. At the very bottom of the list you will find acrylics. Acrylics are soft, have weak adhesion, and poor chemical resistance. On the plus side they are resistant to sunlight... and... cheap! So, to increase the properties of an acrylic the most popular modifications are to add silicone, epoxy, or urethane. Obviously, the modified version would be stronger but not as good as any of the 'pure' modifications. But... cheap...

So, 10 mils of epoxy is going to be better than 10 mils of acrylic... just more expensive...

I guess you also need to consider who you are buying from. Who are they? Do they actually manufacture the product? It's perfectly fine to buy from a sales outlet. We don't sell directly to the public, you have to buy from Fred at alphagarage.com. So, what I'm saying is... who is the manufacturer (the name on the label) of the stuff you are going to buy? Price is increased when a product goes through more people who need to make money. So, if you want a good value you probably want to know that the company on the label actually has labs and a manufacturing facility. MANY people have been burned from the guy putting his own label on another company's product. Trust me... we've made paint for the biggest paint company in the world down to some of the smallest... We've had an ICI Devoe rep selling our products give bad recommendations... (for the record... they are very reputable and took care of it). However, the big companies have the money to do that if the rep is honest and isn't afraid to loose his job. You have to be alot more worried about the small companies that do this. There are a TON of 'brands' out there who 'private label' products from other companies. The problem is that they don't have a full understanding of the products, chemistry, and the resources to back up their mistakes. In other words, you can still make a mess with bad advice even when using quality products.

Ok... this is too long... I'm gonna move on... I hope this helps you.

Thank you very much for that comprehensive reply. I wonder how long it took you to write all that.

I do have a comment regarding your last paragraph though. The problem in determining whether companies are relabeling other people's products will be hard to trace as they would consider that "trade secret" I guess. I guess at some point you have to trust those companies in what they are saying.

I guess at the end of the day, you have to be confident in the information that is provided and make a decision.

I'll contact Fred for a quote.

Thanks again.

WolverineCoatings said:

For us, our price is mainly based on raw material cost. ... Quality matters... but... before I take too much credit I want to say bluntly that we believe we are sucessful because God is choosing to bless our business.

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God works in mysterious ways ... but I think the growth of Wolverine's business makes a strong endorsement for the product, service and personnel, aside from any possible divine influence. Eric, Fred, and crew have found a market that rewards them for the products that they offer.

However, Rustoleum has also found a market for their products. If I were asked the original question, I would have a two word answer - "the market." Generally, you get what you pay for - Rustoleum sells a product that's easy to apply, widely available, and meets the consumers needs. Wolverine meets a different consumer's needs by selling a high-quality product that requires (comparatively) a lot of effort to install. They offset this difficulty by using a retail channel that's ready to provide significant product support to what will likely be a one-time customer.

I would guess that you can buy products from other manufacturers of comparable quality to the Wolverine stuff. However, from my casual investigation, it seems that these products are targeted at professional painters - they've identified their market, and it's not you and me. These professional customers may require support at first, but they will be repeat customers and the level of support required will be sporadic at most.

So, it seems to me that you are paying for quality with Wolverine, and support. You are also paying a premium because the market they serve is small - the economy of scale working against you. There may be other companies out there that have roughly the same business model as Wolverine, with products of equal or lesser quality - but you will have to vet them and their products, just like you may have vetted Wolverine.

That's my two cents worth - I don't have the standing of some of the posters here, but I thought someone should stick up for the (not divine, but often magical) actions of the invisible hand

The Rustoleum product is easy to apply, but only because one coat is easier to apply than more than one.

The first coat is probably the most critical coat, and generally it will take longer to apply than subsequent coats. Preparing the substrate for that first coat is the same for Wolverine's BondTite 1101 as it is for Rustoleum's and for most other epoxies. The better the prep, the better the adhesion.

Some epoxies are going to adhere better than others when the prep is less than ideal. The ability to do that is due to formulations and ingredients, ingredients that generally cost more. If they cost the same or less, everyone would use them, but they don't. If they did there wouldn't be threads here about tire pick up and other coating system failures.

WolverineCoatings said:

Here are some general properties:
At the very bottom of the list you will find acrylics. Acrylics are soft, have weak adhesion, and poor chemical resistance. On the plus side they are resistant to sunlight... and... cheap! So, to increase the properties of an acrylic the most popular modifications are to add silicone, epoxy, or urethane. Obviously, the modified version would be stronger but not as good as any of the 'pure' modifications. But... cheap...

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I believe this is YOUR opinion. I won't go head to head with you. I will NEVER bash your product. But posting your OPINION as FACT I think is UNFAIR at best.

New post coming soon.

'the epoxy floor guy' said:

Acrylic coatings .........
They are TOUGHER, More abrasion Resistant.

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Isn't this YOUR opinion?

'the epoxy floor guy' said:

Acrylics are MUCH more user friendly, Are more suited to 'circumvent' MORE "beginner" mistakes.

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Again, YOUR opinion

'the epoxy floor guy' said:

They Dry Much Quicker, Allow for Re coating MUCH QUICKER.

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Compared to what? Again, sounds like an opinion to me

'the epoxy floor guy' said:

Acrylics are MUCH easier to 'match' in.

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Compared to what? Sounds like an opinion again.

'the epoxy floor guy' said:

It bothers me those who will 'spin' their product to accomplish their agenda. I have read a lot of GREAT posts about how they were given 'most' of the details. But for some reason in their posts they feel compelled to reveal 'consistent' failures / Issues with their installation.

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Who would you be talking about? Name names. (cough..Wolverine?...cough, cough )

'the epoxy floor guy' said:

The reason these 'wizards' are trying to sell you on the fact that they are 'better'. Truth is they make MUCH LARGER sums of money selling you their 'outdated' technology.

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Who are these wizards? The only ones really selling here besides you is Wolverine and Alpha. Are they the ones you speak of?

I believe this is YOUR opinion. I won't go head to head with you. I will NEVER bash your product. But posting your OPINION as FACT I think is UNFAIR at best.

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Posting one's opinion as fact when it isn't... well... it isn't 'unfair at best'... I would call it a LIE. PERIOD. If someone charges that something I’m stating as fact is really my opinion, and incorrect at that, well I need to take that seriously and address it. And that needs to be done regardless of whether or not the accuser wishes to defend their accusation head to head. Besides, when someone posts that they don't want to go 'head to head' and then follows that with a derogatory comment about another member it's like walking up to someone, saying that you don't want to fight, and then punching them in the nose.

I try my best to present fact as fact, and opinions as opinions. But even then, my opinions are based on a lot of experience. I've been inventing coatings and paint technologies for decades. I may have been involved in the development of the paint on your car, or the last airplane you flew in, the powder coating on your outdoor furniture (if it's high-end), the chemical storage tank you pumped your gasoline out of this morning, or even possibly the coating on the aluminum fins in your HVAC unit. These are just a few of the possibilities. My formulations are being sold as the high-end products by some of the biggest companies in the world. My developments are widespread not because I'm a marketing expert, but because I have the knowledge and technical experience to develop winning formulations. I get calls from the chemists at other paint manufacturing companies who need help solving problems. So, when it comes to matters of the chemistry and physics of paint... my opinion carries some weight in the industry.

I wrote:

Epoxies are popular because they have awesome adhesion, toughness, chemical resistance, and durability. On the negative side, they will chalk and yellow in sunlight. Urethanes (aliphatic) can not be applied as thick but are exterior durable in sunlight. They typically do not have chemical resistance in the range of epoxy type chemistry. Some urethanes are more abrasion resistant than epoxies but this is very formulation dependent. At the very bottom of the list you will find acrylics. Acrylics are soft, have weak adhesion, and poor chemical resistance. On the plus side they are resistant to sunlight... and... cheap!

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This isn't just 'my opinion', this is very basic, and widely accepted, paint knowledge. As I noted; an acrylic has two distinct advantages over an over an epoxy; UV resistance, and acrylics are far less costly. In general, epoxies have much higher adhesion, toughness, chemical resistance, and abrasion resistance. The majority of garage floors don't see allot of sun, so UV resistance is one of the least important properties to consider for most garage projects. If someone does want UV resistance (because the door is left open often) then I would suggest considering a much tougher urethane (like our EnduraShield 2254) or a polyaspartic, which we do not sell to the general public because they require experience to install.

For exterior use, such as a driveway, I would avoid an epoxy (because of UV yellowing) and recommend an acrylic, like our nano-polymer AcryliSeal 3501. Although not as durable as a 100% solids high quality epoxy, AcryliSeal 3501 is expected to last much longer than standard acrylics and is probably the most technologically advanced acrylic available anywhere. AcryliSeal 3501 is relatively inexpensive, very easy to apply, and can be easily re-applied if needed. AcryliSeal 3501 is on the high side of the cost for acrylics but less expensive than epoxies. It (AcryliSeal 3501) will outperform MANY solventborne systems because of it's nano-structure.

Anyone who knows Wolverine Coatings knows that we don't put a lot of energy or resources into marketing. Although we have some of the most technologically advanced coatings in the world, we have a mediocre website and not even one glossy brochure to give out. We are a company that is focused on technology... NOT marketing spin.

Marketing spin, isn't that something we all hate? I can remember commercials that made the "GI Joe with the Kung Fu Grip" look SO cool. Then, when you got it, well... it really wasn't as cool as it looked in the commercials. MANY companies oversell their products and make claims that just aren't true. That's we've become so cynical and suspicious of product claims.

This isn't the first time we've heard a marketing expert say something like this...

I have NO problem telling EVERYONE the truth about my products. It bothers me those who will 'spin' their product to accomplish their agenda. I have read a lot of GREAT posts about how they were given 'most' of the details. But for some reason in their posts they feel compelled to reveal 'consistent' failures / Issues with their installation.

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...and then back off on their promise.

I know you came here expecting to see numbers. If you EMAIL me I will email you the results.

You see, There is NO WAY TO WIN for me posting the specs here.

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Here are just a few claims (found here: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26584 recently posted in this forum that I think would be very difficult (if not impossible) to back up.

Acrylic technology is the FASTEST growing segment of the epoxy business.

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This is opinion stated as a fact. That’s not the trend we’re seeing in the coatings market. Keep in mind that almost all our business is with commercial and industrial accounts and contractors. But, I am a technical consultant to a large company who sells resin systems for manufacturing acrylic epoxy. I think that this statement would have been a stretch even before the housing bust.

Acrylic coatings are generally 100% UV STABLE.

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This is stated as a fact... and... it's not even close to accurate. Acrylics are UV resistant... not UV proof! If this were true, the acrylic paint on houses would never discolor or break down. So if someone could supply info on a 100% UV stable acrylic it’d be news to us, and we’d like to know more about it. But absent reliable 3rd party info that says that this will never yellow, lose gloss, or break down in sunlight… yet more marketing spin.

They are TOUGHER, More abrasion Resistant.

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Hate to be repetitive, but yet another opinion stated as fact. This is written to mislead you to believe that acrylics are tougher and more abrasion resistant than 100% solids epoxies. However, you will notice that it doesn't actually say what chemistry acrylics are tougher and more abrasion resistant than. More spin than the Hula Hoop ******* Letterman. (Personally, I like Grinder Girl Better)

Acrylics are MUCH more user friendly, Are more suited to 'circumvent' MORE "beginner" mistakes.

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Again, this is that same marketing tactic. You are led to believe this is a comparison to 100% solids epoxies without actually saying that. I think if you were to ask most people here who have already done their garage, they are going to tell you that prep is 90% of the job and the most likely place that you are going to make a mistake. Products that require 'less prep' are just like houses that require less of a foundation. The longer a coating is expected to last the better the foundation (surface prep) needs to be.

To build a big building you need a good foundation:


And, when you are not building something that will last... well... cinder blocks are allot less work and will do just fine!

Some Acrylics can be 'less' chemical resistant. MOST are Better.

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Again, a 'marketing expert' will claim anything to make a sale. This claim is the easiest one to research for yourself. We make linings for chemical storage tanks. Our products are actually sprayed on the insides of HUGE chemical storage tanks.
We have thousands of 'epoxy type' formulations for chemical storage tank linings and ZERO acrylics. In fact, I've never ever ever seen an acrylic chemical storage tank lining. A quick reality check... Given that acrylics are considerably less expensive than epoxies, if most acrylics did have better chemical resistance than epoxies, doesn't it follow that they would be used for chemical storage tank linings? But they're not, not at all.

Want proof? Let's hit Google... Here are the results for "acrylic tank lining" (1 result... and... it's an acrylic tank top... a shirt... lol)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22acrylic+tank+lining%22

Here are the results for "epoxy tank lining" (too many to count)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22epoxy+tank+lining%22

So, if most acrylics are more chemical resistant (and MUCH cheaper) than epoxies... then... EVERYONE would be using them for chemical storage tank linings!

They Dry Much Quicker, Allow for Re coating MUCH QUICKER. They can be used from CLEAR to colors tinted to the brightest and most vivid colors.

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We have epoxies that dry in 5 minutes. Dry time matters if you were going to put the same (dry) thickness of an Acrylic on a floor as you would 100% solids epoxy because most acrylics would need 5-20 coats to equal 1 coat of a good 100% solids epoxy. As far as the other 'spin' here.... epoxies come in clear and the brightest and most vivid colors too... Ho Hum...

With abrasion tests from independent laboratories showing a 10x abrasion resistance than EVEN 100% solids.

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Again - either post test results from an independent lab, or stop referring to them. It is a fact, or it is, at best, spin - and at worst, a lie.

Additionally, even if this claim were true (which is doubtful) we would also need to look at impact resistance. Coating a floor is a significant undertaking, both in time and costs. We can easily make an acrylic that will test well in some abrasion resistance tests... but... it might be very brittle. Glass tests really well for abrasion resistance... but you don't want to drop anything on it.

When it comes to tests, they can be twisted to mean anything if you don't understand how the test is done, what the result means, and what other properties are affected. In other words, impact resistance is a much more meaningful test on a garage floor. Most damage is going to come from dropping things as opposed to dragging heavy items across the surface. There are MANY different tests for abrasion resistance and even variations of those tests. Unless you're familiar with the tests, the perfect balance of coating properties, and the effects of one property over another... watch out!

We can send a man to the moon, we can clone a sheep, monkey, and (my dream) Jessica Alba. But you think we can't make a coating that doesn't smell, has to be put on like Tammy Faye Bakers Makeup AND is Difficult to install???

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Is the point of the "Tammy Faye" reference to convince us that a thinner coating is better than a thicker coating? Often thicker is better, it depends what Tammy Faye looks like under the coating. Furthermore makeup is just for looks - not protection. If you have perfect concrete (which no one does) then you have less of a need for thickness. The thicker the coating, the more concrete defects (like pits and divots) it is going to hide.

So, when you read 'marketing spin' like this you can bet the product is one that can't be put on thick in a single coat. Even if you put on 20 coats of a product that can only be applied in thin coats, all the layers will follow the surface of the divots and defects and only gradually minimize defects by the 20th coat. A good self-leveling coating, that can be put on thick, will fill those defects and leave you with a smooth floor, which will look much better.

About those sheep on the moon... If one claims to have found the holy grail of coatings, a coating tantamount to "sending a man to the moon..." before blindly following the Pied Piper it would be prudent to consider the source. Let's face it, there has never been a space vehicle built by amateurs. You can trust the quality of paint from ICI Devoe because they have experienced chemists and collaborate with other professional firms to develop their product line. I know from experience that they will thoroughly check out a company's formulations before working with them. There's a slim (in fact... probably non-existent) chance of getting a quality product developed by a company that doesn't have experience and knowledge. However, they might put out quality spin.

With all due respect, marketing expertise is not the same as chemical expertise. And so while there might be some great marketing going on here, I find the product misinformation disturbing. I don't really have a problem with manufacturers keeping their data close, (we usually only share ours with engineers subject to a confidentiality agreement) but there have been more than a couple of wild claims and opinions masquerading as fact, claims that go against industry proven knowledge.

It's not like we couldn't sell acrylics/acrylic epoxy here if we wanted to. We do make acrylics that we sell to other companies who then private label them. But real world experience, scientific knowledge, and market economics support our decisions to offer the select products from our catalog that we make available through AlphaGarage (for the DoItYourselfer).

I don't exactly have anything to prove on these forums, I come here because I like to... While Fred from AlphaGarage is actively pursuing residential business here and elsewhere, we aren't exactly counting DIY sales to pay the bills. This market is an extremely small part of our business; in fact we shipped out more product in the 2 days before Christmas than we've ever shipped for garage floors. I'm here for fun. We've made a few friends on this board, and it makes me feel good when I get to see the pride and enjoyment folks get from installing our products. I don't have any motive to mislead people here and anyone who has worked with us will vouch for our integrity. I can make that statement with confidence because honesty doesn't happen accidentally. We don't say we're going to post results and then change our minds. We don't ridicule other manufacturers for 'spin' about their products and then spin ours. And, I don't intentionally post things as facts that aren’t.

We have Chemists and a Chemical Engineer on our staff and we’re always looking for ways to make our products better, less expensive, and easier to apply. As we develop, perfect, and manufacture suitable products for the DIYer, we’ll certainly offer them to you at a fair price. And that’s no spin.

All I said was that "at the very bottom is acrylics"

and I said that's YOUR opinion. Nothing more Nothing less.

I am NOT nor have I EVER said that my product is "the very best for all applications" This forum is devoted to people who love their garage. It is for those who want to get INFORMATION on flooring products. It is MY OPINION that the acrylic products that we sell are

#1 the easiest to apply.

#2 the easiest to get right without 'problems'

#3 the most durable for the money. (and in some cases more durable than those that cost more money)

#4 are an alternative to the "be all 100% solids"

ALL I am saying is people have a choice. I'm sorry if you are upset that I am here. I have Never BASHED your product as being INFERIOR IN ANY WAY. EVER! Yet you continue to bash my product because you "know" epoxies and you "know" Acrylics. You know the best minds in the world once "KNEW" the world was flat also. As I have repeated many times PM me your address I will ship you 1 quart of my product. You can test it yourself. I'm NOT SCARED.

One word:
Experience

Lots of other things come into play, but with experience comes proper tools and materials that last.

Often thicker is better,

Click to expand...

So epoxy guy, I'm still waiting on these independent tests. Where the hell are they?? We are also waiting for all these professional applicators that have used your snake oil to come forward with their opinions.

You may fool some poor saps looking for hand outs but that will only take you so far. Put up or shut up.

He won't post it.
However, he did email me the test information.
Here it is:

"Saturated cotton ball placed under watch glass for 4 hrs, patted dry and rated.

0 = complete failure 10 = untouched

Chemical - 7 Days on Concrete

5 % KOH - 10
TSP/H20 - 10
10 % Acetic Acid - 10
5 % Sodium Phosphate - 10
Floor Cleaner - 9
5 % HCL - 9
Bleach and Water - 10
Lysol Daily Shower - 8
Windex - 10
The Works Cleaner - 9
G3 Janitorial Glass Cleaner- 10
G3 Janitorial Sink Cleaner- 9
Windex Multi Surface - 10
Denatured Alcohol - 10
409 - 9
Unleaded Gasoline - 9
Power Steering Fluid - 10
Motor Oil - 10
Brake Fluid - 9
Transmission Fluid - 10
5 % Salt Solution - 10
Antifreeze/Water 50:50 -10


NON- Blushing formula:

2 coats installed with 4hr dry time each coat 16 hour immersion in Water, 5 minutes later NO blushing.

Tabor abrasion test:

Hard CS17WH with 1000 gram load @ 500 Cycles lost: .06g

Achieves FULL HARD within 24-48 hrs.

1 day 21 Oscillations
3 days 24 Oscillations
10 days 25 Oscillations
12-14 days 26 Oscillations

50-75g/L - VOC

Passed a Crosscut adhesion Test

8 Month exterior exposure Northern IL Sept - MAY
1 coat on busy loading dock subject to ponding.

Wear rating.

Industrial Floor paint "a" - 5/10
Super Single - 7/10
Industrial Floor paint "b: 4/10
"experimental" - 6/10

Very good efflorescence resistance (salt deposits)

Good adhesion to concrete, man made stone and natural stone
Excellent adhesion to glossy alkyd and chalky substrates
Excellent color retention, accepts color universally in almost all colorant lines.
Outstanding early water resistance can be used to as a low temperature applied paint.

These are the results we received from a lab we paid to 'test' this product."

He also mailed me a sample of the product applied onto a heavy card.
I can tell you it didn't pass my fingernail test. I am able to gouge into it and scrape pieces off.

WolverineCoatings said:

Anyone who knows Wolverine Coatings knows that we don't put a lot of energy or resources into marketing. Although we have some of the most technologically advanced coatings in the world, we have a mediocre website and not even one glossy brochure to give out. We are a company that is focused on technology... NOT marketing spin.

Marketing spin, isn't that something we all hate? I can remember commercials that made the "GI Joe with the Kung Fu Grip" look SO cool. Then, when you got it, well... it really wasn't as cool as it looked in the commercials. MANY companies oversell their products and make claims that just aren't true. That's we've become so cynical and suspicious of product claims.

This isn't the first time we've heard a marketing expert say something like this...

...and then back off on their promise.


Here are just a few claims (found here: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26584 recently posted in this forum that I think would be very difficult (if not impossible) to back up.


This is opinion stated as a fact. That’s not the trend we’re seeing in the coatings market. Keep in mind that almost all our business is with commercial and industrial accounts and contractors. But, I am a technical consultant to a large company who sells resin systems for manufacturing acrylic epoxy. I think that this statement would have been a stretch even before the housing bust.


This is stated as a fact... and... it's not even close to accurate. Acrylics are UV resistant... not UV proof! If this were true, the acrylic paint on houses would never discolor or break down. So if someone could supply info on a 100% UV stable acrylic it’d be news to us, and we’d like to know more about it. But absent reliable 3rd party info that says that this will never yellow, lose gloss, or break down in sunlight… yet more marketing spin.


Hate to be repetitive, but yet another opinion stated as fact. This is written to mislead you to believe that acrylics are tougher and more abrasion resistant than 100% solids epoxies. However, you will notice that it doesn't actually say what chemistry acrylics are tougher and more abrasion resistant than. More spin than the Hula Hoop ******* Letterman. (Personally, I like Grinder Girl Better)

Again, this is that same marketing tactic. You are led to believe this is a comparison to 100% solids epoxies without actually saying that. I think if you were to ask most people here who have already done their garage, they are going to tell you that prep is 90% of the job and the most likely place that you are going to make a mistake. Products that require 'less prep' are just like houses that require less of a foundation. The longer a coating is expected to last the better the foundation (surface prep) needs to be.

To build a big building you need a good foundation:

And, when you are not building something that will last... well... cinder blocks are allot less work and will do just fine!

Again, a 'marketing expert' will claim anything to make a sale. This claim is the easiest one to research for yourself. We make linings for chemical storage tanks. Our products are actually sprayed on the insides of HUGE chemical storage tanks.

​

We have thousands of 'epoxy type' formulations for chemical storage tank linings and ZERO acrylics. In fact, I've never ever ever seen an acrylic chemical storage tank lining. A quick reality check... Given that acrylics are considerably less expensive than epoxies, if most acrylics did have better chemical resistance than epoxies, doesn't it follow that they would be used for chemical storage tank linings? But they're not, not at all.

Want proof? Let's hit Google... Here are the results for "acrylic tank lining" (1 result... and... it's an acrylic tank top... a shirt... lol)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22acrylic+tank+lining%22

Here are the results for "epoxy tank lining" (too many to count)
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22epoxy+tank+lining%22

So, if most acrylics are more chemical resistant (and MUCH cheaper) than epoxies... then... EVERYONE would be using them for chemical storage tank linings!



We have epoxies that dry in 5 minutes. Dry time matters if you were going to put the same (dry) thickness of an Acrylic on a floor as you would 100% solids epoxy because most acrylics would need 5-20 coats to equal 1 coat of a good 100% solids epoxy. As far as the other 'spin' here.... epoxies come in clear and the brightest and most vivid colors too... Ho Hum...


Again - either post test results from an independent lab, or stop referring to them. It is a fact, or it is, at best, spin - and at worst, a lie.

Additionally, even if this claim were true (which is doubtful) we would also need to look at impact resistance. Coating a floor is a significant undertaking, both in time and costs. We can easily make an acrylic that will test well in some abrasion resistance tests... but... it might be very brittle. Glass tests really well for abrasion resistance... but you don't want to drop anything on it.

When it comes to tests, they can be twisted to mean anything if you don't understand how the test is done, what the result means, and what other properties are affected. In other words, impact resistance is a much more meaningful test on a garage floor. Most damage is going to come from dropping things as opposed to dragging heavy items across the surface. There are MANY different tests for abrasion resistance and even variations of those tests. Unless you're familiar with the tests, the perfect balance of coating properties, and the effects of one property over another... watch out!



Is the point of the "Tammy Faye" reference to convince us that a thinner coating is better than a thicker coating? Often thicker is better, it depends what Tammy Faye looks like under the coating. Furthermore makeup is just for looks - not protection. If you have perfect concrete (which no one does) then you have less of a need for thickness. The thicker the coating, the more concrete defects (like pits and divots) it is going to hide.

So, when you read 'marketing spin' like this you can bet the product is one that can't be put on thick in a single coat. Even if you put on 20 coats of a product that can only be applied in thin coats, all the layers will follow the surface of the divots and defects and only gradually minimize defects by the 20th coat. A good self-leveling coating, that can be put on thick, will fill those defects and leave you with a smooth floor, which will look much better.

Click to expand...

This is hilarious I have never once herd of you or your company.

This is my first post in something like 6 or 7 months... i left the board because mostly everyone on here was a wolverine fanboy and drinks that koolaid. quick recap...

i balked at wolverines prices to the end user and their supposed super unbeatable secret technology... eventually got threatened with a lawsuit drama ensued... i never got sued... most of our threads got deleted and i left the nonsense here for my own sanity. I actually developed quite a following of people who agreed with my point and there were several who wouldnt hear a single logical argument and didnt like that anyone would challenge that wolverine wasnt the best **** since sliced bread.

so here we are today and the same stuff is still going on.

Some logical points for you to ponder...

the facts still remain wolverine wont post their data sheets so ANYONE can do a comparison.

They wouldnt even SELL me any of their product for fear i might compare it. I offered to pay for it but apparently i am too small of a contractor? wtf they sell to DIY people does that make sense?

They are more expensive than mostly all of the pro polyaspartic systems out there... this is the standard for a professionally installed floor and arguably the best technology for that purpose without getting into exotics. Industry accepts polyureas as better than epoxies...

They are more expensive than ALL of the 100 percent solids epoxy systems i have ever used...

More expensive but they wont prove why... at least to me. Industry standard data sheets are common practice so engineers installers and so on can compare these products yet the most bad *** mofo's in the business wont supply them. Logically i am infering that there isnt much difference between their 100 percent solids liquitile and bondtite vs other similar products at a fraction of the cost. supplying data sheets would prove this.

There is no reason a diy'er should ever pay that much, i happen to agree with the epoxy floor guy in that respect. As a professional installer i couldnt operate at those prices in my market. Sure i should pay less than a diy'er because i use volume and buy regularly but material cost nearing 2 bucks a sq ft is over 50 percent more than what it costs me to put down a superior floor in my opinion. and i am guessing this is most pro installers opinions too because not too many of them use their products for garage floors. In fact i havent seen a pro installer pushing an all epoxy floor for 4 years.

take it for what its worth but we are not all wrong about wolverine which incidentally after years in the industry i had never heard of either untill i came here... neither had several of my suppliers who are on a international level.

Why do you consider $75 per gallon so expensive for 100% solids?

I've been thinking more about your post.

I did some research before choosing Wolverine.

I could only find one other company that sold to the public that was cheaper than $75 per gallon for 100% solids epoxy and I couldn't find any people that had ever used it or even had heard of it.

All products that I know of that are geared to the DIYer are more expensive than Wolverine (cured product volume).

From all the research I have done, polyaspartics are not recommended for DIYers.

I have used several different brands of DIY over the years including 1 other 100% solids one that was not Wolverine.
By far, Wolverine was the highest quality product I have ever used.

I really don't understand your beef.

I think, as a pro, if you had gotten off on the right foot with the Wolverine people, you might be using their products and get volume discounts that gets their price competitive with others you use.

JMHO

I think his beef may be more of;

1. Who the hell is Wolverine and why is he acting like a huge player in the industrial coating market?

2. Why is he acting like he's is doing everyone a favor by selling epoxy at a not so discounted price?"

I personally have never heard of them.

Google search them yourselves and you'll see yourselves that his company is only prominent in forums like this one. His site also leaves alot to be desired. Btw, make sure that you have Bob Harris's permission to rum his vids. He may not be happy about that.

I personally dont care who, how or what. To me he's a chemist who worked for a larger company and is now pumpin his product through forums.

Why a major industrial player would put so much emphasis on DIY is a bit suspicious but whatever. If he needs to make himself look like a larger entity to sell then so be it.

I can't attest to his product cause I never used it and most likely never will. Not because I have a gripe but because it makes more sense for me to buy local.

Seems like some DIY'ers are happy so whatever. Hope he sells a billion. Who cares, do your thing.

honestly, is 75 dollars a gallon a good price... meh not really. I am betting it is pretty similar to stuff i pay 35-40 dollars a gallon for. Is the 8 (or 7 i cant remember) dollars a pound for their chips a good price? hell no! How about the asinine price for their special acid? Not in my opinion ( i dont even like the use of acid for prep and for someone to claim it as better than mechanical is nuts). On the other hand they oversell every one. The reason its cost approaches 2 dollars a sq ft installed is because they have you (the end user) put the stuff down at something like 30 mils just to put flakes and a clear coat on top. I dont really feel like looking around on here to show examples and do the math so im just pulling some numbers out of you know where but i am pretty sure they are in the ball park... the wear layer is the top coat anyway. There are several things wrong between inefficient install practices to not so good prices that end up in wolverine customers paying way too much. A superior polyaspartic system doesnt even cost that much in material.

Take your car for example... I figure this is an example everone on here might relate to. would you pay extra to have 3 times as much paint put on your car with the same clear coat put on top. If the clear coat gets scratched it still looks bad. So dont give me the durability ****. When the floor gets beat up your just going to sand and recoat the top... that extra 20 mils of expoxy and dollar a sqft pretty much goes to waste. As tough as these products are (wolverines and others) you wouldnt wear through 3 mils in the lifetime of your garage in 99.99 percent of residential garages.

Also it is helpfull to have someone with some experience with instalations selling to you im not going to point any fingers here but thats not always the case on this board.

this is all moot anyway... Diyers are inconseqential to me and my business i am just trying to help out i have absolutely nothing to gain from helping you guys. I just use these products every day in real world situations. Does fred or eric? I dont know the answer to that but they are both in sales in some form and i know when i was in sales that i could always rely on my customers for the most accurate assessment of the products because they had more experience than i could ever get. I didnt use the prodcts like they did. I just get the feeling like i am at an OBAMA rally when i am on here reading about wolverine. If you want a salesmans opinion on their own product fine but we all know what answer you are going to get... its the best sh!t since sliced bread and you should buy a bunch. Then there is the opinion of the guy who makes a living off of these products and installs them (with warranties) everyday.

Eric no offense but i just can't agree with how this is done... its not all prices either as i stated above. I am not even saying you have bad products. I just dont see the value when you add it all up.

Its friday night everyone have a good one.

roger55 said:

I've been thinking more about your post.
I think, as a pro, if you had gotten off on the right foot with the Wolverine people, you might be using their products and get volume discounts that gets their price competitive with others you use.
JMHO

Click to expand...

I tried to do a comparison with my current products that are less expensive than their products... first problem was they wont give me the damn data sheets. Well thats not how i or anyone does business in this industry. Its like buying a car without them letting you look under the hood. "Well, the salesman said my civic had 500 horsepower he wouldnt lie!" Epoxies are a dime a dozen and before i spend 45 percent more on someone elses product i want to know why... Also i offered to buy some and was also declined again saying i am too small of a contractor and they were not interested in my business. i doubt that would have happened, however, if it was not for my opinion on garage journal. For the record eric and i spoke on the phone back when for quite some time and it wasnt an unpleasant conversation.

Mlynch said:

honestly, is 75 dollars a gallon a good price... meh not really. I am betting it is pretty similar to stuff i pay 35-40 dollars a gallon for. Is the 8 (or 7 i cant remember) dollars a pound for their chips a good price? hell no! How about the asinine price for their special acid? Not in my opinion ( i dont even like the use of acid for prep and for someone to claim it as better than mechanical is nuts). On the other hand they oversell every one. The reason its cost approaches 2 dollars a sq ft installed is because they have you (the end user) put the stuff down at something like 30 mils just to put flakes and a clear coat on top. I dont really feel like looking around on here to show examples and do the math so im just pulling some numbers out of you know where but i am pretty sure they are in the ball park... the wear layer is the top coat anyway. There are several things wrong between inefficient install practices to not so good prices that end up in wolverine customers paying way too much. A superior polyaspartic system doesnt even cost that much in material.

Click to expand...

I agree about the acid. I would rather grind than etch.

Your ballpark numbers are way off.
Wolverine sells their flakes for $3.90 a pound, not $7 or $8. That's cheaper than all the other companies that sell to the DIYer that I have ever seen.
The Wolverine system recommends a 22 mil thickness, not 30 mils.
I've used several products and I wouldn't ever want to do less much less than that even using flakes. Cost for their system is $1.03 per sqft. plus flakes.

Maybe you don't have much use for Wolverine with your business but I believe it is a really good quality system and very reasonably priced for the DYIer. The support is excellent as well.

So, what would you advise a DYIer to do?
Where can a DIYer get high quality 100% solids epoxy significantly cheaper than $75?
Any support at all?

Whoa! I didn't realize my questions would ruffle so many feathers. Let me say firstly that I ended up with Wolverine. I also didn't mean to use Wolverine as a punching bag (which seems to be the case as of late). I spent quite a bit of time doing research before making my decision. I felt comfortable enough in my decision to use Wolverine. The floor looks great and hopefully lasts a long time.
You're right. I've never heard of Wolverine coatings except this forum. But that happens everywhere. I had a side business where all my sales were in forums and word of mouth. People have never heard of me outside of the forums.
But all in all, at the end I'm happy with the transaction.

roger55 said:

I agree about the acid. I would rather grind than etch.

Your ballpark numbers are way off.
Wolverine sells their flakes for $3.90 a pound, not $7 or $8. That's cheaper than all the other companies that sell to the DIYer that I have ever seen.
The Wolverine system recommends a 22 mil thickness, not 30 mils.
I've used several products and I wouldn't ever want to do less much less than that even using flakes. Cost for their system is $1.03 per sqft. plus flakes.

Maybe you don't have much use for Wolverine with your business but I believe it is a really good quality system and very reasonably priced for the DYIer. The support is excellent as well.

So, what would you advise a DYIer to do?
Where can a DIYer get high quality 100% solids epoxy significantly cheaper than $75?
Any support at all?

Click to expand...

A lot of past threads have been deleted and their chip prices indeed used to be out of this world price wise... i can direct you to this thread, however.

specifically posts 8 and 9

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19098

check for yourself... unfortunately that does not break it down so you can see the individual costs per pound for chips (there used to be several threads that did) but that is just one example of someone who in my opinion was taken advantage of. If my memory serves me that guys material costs was 2.67 a sq ft for a DIY EPOXY FLOOR!!!

Its a shame that the forum mods deleted some of the other threads...

Found a post with the chip cost breakdown from wolverine that is current... i think they have changed their prices from 7 months ago because i remember a few threads where people were paying 6 ish dollars a pound and buying 50 lbs of chips but the posts are no longer available from what i can tell... but you can see yes they can indeed be up to 9.80 dollars a pound.

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=389271&postcount=22

Mlynch said:

Found a post with the chip cost breakdown from wolverine that is current... i think they have changed their prices from 7 months ago because i remember a few threads where people were paying 6 ish dollars a pound and buying 50 lbs of chips but the posts are no longer available from what i can tell... but you can see yes they can indeed be up to 9.80 dollars a pound.

http://garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=389271&postcount=22

Click to expand...

I can't speak about what it may have "used to be".
I can speak about what I paid and what their the latest price sheet that was mailed to me says.
Their recommended 22 mil system is $1.03 per sqft plus optional flakes at $3.90 per pound. (higher, if you want them blended or buy in small quantities.)
Again I ask you, what do you recommend a DIYer to do that you think is better?