Quality Hard-Handle JIS Screwdrivers?

Phantom552 · May 21, 2015

Anyone know of any good hard-handled JIS screwdrivers? Looking for something with a similar design to the older orange S-O hard-handles (http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/makmcguire/media/Snap-OnScrew_zpsf9766be6.jpeg.html) and/or the Kobalt opaque blue handles (http://www.lowes.com/pd_525785-930-324TG88_1z140vvZ1z11pcg__?productId=50158837&pl=1).

Bonus points if there's a USA-made offering.

So far, I haven't been able to find anything that meets those desires from a brand I recognize.

rlitman · May 21, 2015

Vessel 930 series has the hex bolster like the ones you linked to.
Made in Japan.

Moody Tools makes JIS blades in the US, but AFAIK, only #1 and smaller.

mikebaker1129 · May 21, 2015

Williams.

G1GRANDEUR · May 21, 2015

mikebaker1129 said:
Williams.

they don't make JIS style.

Vessel or Hozan

dnschmidt · May 21, 2015

Actually, TOPTUL's so called Phillips is in fact JIS. Japan is one of their primary markets so they make their "Phillips" to JIS specs. It's almost impossible to tell a JIS from a Phillips by simply looking at it but they have told me that they use the JIS specs for all of their so called Phillips. I've got a bolstered #2 for sale on EBay.

dede2897234 · May 21, 2015

dnschmidt said:
Actually, TOPTUL's so called Phillips is in fact JIS. Japan is one of their primary markets so they make their "Phillips" to JIS specs. It's almost impossible to tell a JIS from a Phillips by simply looking at it but they have told me that they use the JIS specs for all of their so called Phillips. I've got a bolstered #2 for sale on EBay.

dnschmidt,

The JIS standard has been defunct since 2008 as currently stated on the bottom of Vessel Tools' N.A. distributor here: LINK. It has been replaced with the DIN 5260-PH standard. Vessel of Japan, Wiha of Germany, and Wera of Germany use this standard to manufacture their screwdrivers. GJ member "rlitman" wrote a nice thread response (post #22) about DIN 5260 here: LINK. Back in 2010, I contacted a representative of Sunflag Tools of Japan to find out which standard his screwdrivers were manufactured. He replied that the older standard (that was used to manufacture their models 888 and 215-P) was JIS B 4633. You can read about this thread response here: JIS Screwdrivers (post #73).

What I am questioning here is that you are claiming above that Toptul Phillips screwdrivers are supposedly the defunct JIS without any concrete evidence. Earlier I combed the Toptul website to find any claims about the manufacturer using DIN/ISO 5260 to manufacture their Phillips screwdriver. I could not find a single mention. All I could find is a general product page about the Toptul Phillips screwdriver like your eBay advertisement page: Toptul Phillips.

Don't get me wrong. I love Toptul. I own quite a small selection. It is high quality and a great value. However, what you presented above about your Toptul screwdrivers are not correct. They are not based on fact. It would be helpful if you attached a document to this thread or a website link that proves that the Toptul Phillips screwdrivers comply with the DIN/ISO 5260-PH standard. Then, we can assume these screwdrivers can drive both types of cross recess fasteners (Phillips and the former JIS fasteners).

Dave

dnschmidt · May 22, 2015

My information comes from TOPTUL. As you requested I've attached a .pdf of a quotation from them for screwdriver bits. Notice the circled description. I've removed the pricing and the name of my account manager for obvious reasons but as you can tell from the letterhead this is authentic. I specifically asked my account manager as to whether they use the American Phillips standard or the Japanese. The answer: The Japanese. So whatever the Japanese are currently using is what TOPTUL is using.

I'm not arguing against anything you've stated above. But whatever Vessel is currently selling is what TOPTUL is selling whatever standard that currently may be.

dede2897234 · May 22, 2015

dnschmidt said:
My information comes from TOPTUL. As you requested I've attached a .pdf of a quotation from them for screwdriver bits. Notice the circled description. I've removed the pricing and the name of my account manager for obvious reasons but as you can tell from the letterhead this is authentic. I specifically asked my account manager as to whether they use the American Phillips standard or the Japanese. The answer: The Japanese. So whatever the Japanese are currently using is what TOPTUL is using.

I'm not arguing against anything you've stated above. But whatever Vessel is currently selling is what TOPTUL is selling whatever standard that currently may be.

dnschmidt,

I took a look at the PDF document you attached to your thread response. For the two Toptul PH2 power bits, all its says for a description is "Japanese Type". It does not specify the manufacturing standard such as DIN 5260. The issue I have is if you use the Toptul power bit on a older model Toyota vehicle and need to remove a cross recess fastener with a dimple in the upper corner. There is a chance you can strip the Toyota cross recess fastener if the Toptul power bit was not manufactured to the DIN 5260 standard.

I attached below a Wera Tools document I found on the internet. For these specific Phillips drivers, Wera manufactures them to the DIN 5260-PH standard.

I was searching GarageJournal's past threads about Toptul and came across this interesting one about Toptul screwdrivers. This one from 2009 included pictures from member "jeffhay" (post #8). He posted his set of go-thru screwdrivers. His picture of the slotted screwdriver had stamped on the handle "DIN 5264". Could it be possible that the cross screwdrivers in the set are manufactured to "DIN 5260"? I sent an e-mail to "[email protected]". Hopefully, I will get a response back sometime next week.

Dave

dnschmidt · May 22, 2015

Dave, don't hold your breath. I sell their stuff and it takes me months to get a response to a simple question. If you're asking for actual specifications from them all I can say is good luck buddy.

Jure · May 23, 2015

dnschmidt said:
Actually, TOPTUL's so called Phillips is in fact JIS. Japan is one of their primary markets so they make their "Phillips" to JIS specs. It's almost impossible to tell a JIS from a Phillips by simply looking at it but they have told me that they use the JIS specs for all of their so called Phillips. I've got a bolstered #2 for sale on EBay.

toptul doesnt make any JIS standard tools.

dede2897234 · May 23, 2015

Jure,

Do you own any of the Toptul go-thru handle screwdrivers (with the steel caps, hex bolsters, and hex shanks)?

If yes, would you mind taking a picture of the top of any Phillips screwdriver where it's stamped with the DIN standard and the Toptul model number?

The DIN standard number will provide the answer whether the Toptul Phillips screwdriver will drive the former JIS standard fasteners without stripping them.

Thanks,

Dave

dnschmidt · May 23, 2015

Nope, I never bought any of those from TOPTUL since I hate go-thru screwdrivers due to the weight distribution being entirely screwed up. I have a couple of Wiha go-thrus and they are simply unusable for anything other than chisels as their balance is horrendous. My view on these is that if you need a chisel use a chisel.

I have to state that TOPTUL's screwdrivers are great. Yea, I know I sell them but really they are great. What's so great about them is the handles. They clearly stole the design from Wiha but they actually improved it. The TOPTUL handle design is made from the same material that Wiha uses (which is great) but the shape is better than the Wiha. Selling the stuff my honest opinion is that their forgings (wrenches and sockets) and their screwdrivers are the best products they make. Their satin chrome finish is likely the best in the world and I say that owning Stahlwillie, Gedore and Hazet.

Jure · May 23, 2015

@Dave:

toptul ph's are 5260 standard

"DIN 5260 - skruetrækker med krydskærv: (PH0X147)/(PH1X185)/(PH1X205)/(PH2X85)/(PH2X215)/(PH2X265)/(PH3X275)"

Jure · May 23, 2015

dnschmidt said:
Nope, I never bought any of those from TOPTUL since I hate go-thru screwdrivers due to the weight distribution being entirely screwed up. I have a couple of Wiha go-thrus and they are simply unusable for anything other than chisels as their balance is horrendous. My view on these is that if you need a chisel use a chisel.

I have to state that TOPTUL's screwdrivers are great. Yea, I know I sell them but really they are great. What's so great about them is the handles. They clearly stole the design from Wiha but they actually improved it. The TOPTUL handle design is made from the same material that Wiha uses (which is great) but the shape is better than the Wiha. Selling the stuff my honest opinion is that their forgings (wrenches and sockets) and their screwdrivers are the best products they make. Their satin chrome finish is likely the best in the world and I say that owning Stahlwillie, Gedore and Hazet.

agreed,they are not expensive,awesome forging and finish. IMHO much above the Gearwrench. only problem with toptul is that they are not easily available in the states,not even here in europe..thank god i have a toptul dealer/store two houses down the road.

superautobacs · May 23, 2015

dnschmidt said:
Actually, TOPTUL's so called Phillips is in fact JIS. Japan is one of their primary markets so they make their "Phillips" to JIS specs. It's almost impossible to tell a JIS from a Phillips by simply looking at it but they have told me that they use the JIS specs for all of their so called Phillips. I've got a bolstered #2 for sale on EBay.

Toptul told you that Japan is their primary markets? I don't believe that one bit. The Toptul name has no brand recognition in Japan, period.

dnschmidt said:
My information comes from TOPTUL. As you requested I've attached a .pdf of a quotation from them for screwdriver bits. Notice the circled description. I've removed the pricing and the name of my account manager for obvious reasons but as you can tell from the letterhead this is authentic. I specifically asked my account manager as to whether they use the American Phillips standard or the Japanese. The answer: The Japanese. So whatever the Japanese are currently using is what TOPTUL is using.

I'm not arguing against anything you've stated above. But whatever Vessel is currently selling is what TOPTUL is selling whatever standard that currently may be.

Confusing.

Jure · May 23, 2015

superautobacs said:
Toptul told you that Japan is their primary markets? I don't believe that one bit. The Toptul name has no brand recognition in Japan, period.

you are wrong about that one...

superautobacs · May 23, 2015

Jure said:
you are wrong about that one...

The exposure they have seems very small...a minority group.

Certainly not to the level of degree that many other brands do (and there are A LOT of brands offered in Japan).

RiverRider · May 23, 2015

Question: is JIS not the same as Posi-Drive? There seems to be lots of conflicting and confusing info on the net. "Seems," hell. It's a huge cluster****.

superautobacs · May 23, 2015

RiverRider said:
Question: is JIS not the same as Posi-Drive? There seems to be lots of conflicting and confusing info on the net. "Seems," hell. It's a huge cluster****.

JIS is not the same as Pozidriv.

dnschmidt · May 23, 2015

JIS is not the same as Pozidriv. This is interesting, Phillips Screw Company, like the Japanese, realized the limitations of their own Phillips design which was INTENTIONALLY made to cam out to prevent over tightening. Their answer to this problem was the invention of Pozidriv which works very much like the JIS design in that it doesn't cam out. However, JIS and Pozidriv are very different in design but they both accomplish the same goal which is to make a cross slotted screw that can be highly tightened.

Pozidriv, which really is superior to Phillips, never went anywhere in America although Phillips Screw Company is an American company. On the other hand the Germans LOVED IT. All of the major German furniture hardware manufacturers such as Hettich, Hafele, Blum and Grass universally adopted it for their furniture hardware. Anybody that works in a cabinet shop installing hinges and Euro Screws knows that all of these are Pozidriv. I guess nobody is a hero in their own land.

dede2897234 · May 23, 2015

Jure said:
@Dave:

toptul ph's are 5260 standard

"DIN 5260 - skruetrækker med krydskærv: (PH0X147)/(PH1X185)/(PH1X205)/(PH2X85)/(PH2X215)/(PH2X265)/(PH3X275)"

Jure,

Thanks for looking up the information!

GJ member "Jeffhay" also owns a Toptul go-thru Phillips screwdriver. He was kind enough to send me a PM with a picture of it. The handle includes the factory stamp with the DIN manufacturing standard on it.

Dave

LordPsychon · May 23, 2015

superautobacs said:
JIS is not the same as Pozidriv.

From Wikipedia:

"Japanese Industrial Standard (JIS) cross-head screwdrivers are still another standard, often inaccurately referred to as Japanese Phillips. Compatible screw heads are usually identifiable by a single depressed dot or an "X" to one side of the cross slot. This is a screw standard throughout the Asia market and Japanese imports. The driver has a 57° point with a flat tip."

Very similar to Phillips but not identical.

dnschmidt · May 23, 2015

I just looked on my bolstered Phillips and it has the same information on it. Is DIN whatever good? All I know is that it's a killer screwdriver.

Jure · May 23, 2015

superautobacs said:
The exposure they have seems very small...a minority group.

Certainly not to the level of degree that many other brands do (and there are A LOT of brands offered in Japan).

yes,for sure you cant compare it with KTC,nepros or koken since they are "national" tools,but toptul is known as a quality budget brand for sure :beer:

dede2897234 · May 23, 2015

dnschmidt said:
I just looked on my bolstered Phillips and it has the same information on it. Is DIN whatever good? All I know is that it's a killer screwdriver.

dnschmidt,

Thanks for posting a picture of your Toptul Phillips screwdriver. It is safe to assume that the Toptul black and green Phillips screwdrivers with the hex blade will drive the old JIS fasteners (with the dimple at the top) without stripping the fastener. I am curious about the relatively new Toptul Phillips screwdrivers I've seen on their website that I circled in the below picture about their DIN 5260 compliance.

Will I get an answer soon from Toptul customer service??? Pretty please!

Dave

dnschmidt · May 23, 2015

I have both of the extra long TOPTUL Phillips screwdrivers in stock but they don't have the DIN information on their handles like the bolstered one does. That stated the tips look exactly the same as the bolstered one. It wouldn't make sense to me for TOPTUL to have different machining systems for the DIN tip and another tip for something else when their customer base is in Asia where Japan dominates. I'm not a fan of the plastic handled ones so I've never ordered any as I like the green and black so much. One thing I can tell you is that they are cheaper than the green and black by about 25%. Seems to me that they introduced something just for the sake of introducing something. The green and black kill, what's the need for something else.

If you start growing a beard today you're going to look like Billy Gibbons by the time TOPTUL gets back to you. If you've not a fan of ZZ top Google him.

superautobacs · May 23, 2015

Jure said:
yes,for sure you cant compare it with KTC,nepros or koken since they are "national" tools,but toptul is known as a quality budget brand for sure

I was actually referring to import brands; not domestic Japanese brands.
I've browsed and followed many Japanese blogs over the years and I've only heard the mention of Toptul maybe twice? I've been to many tool stores in Japan, and only once did I see a Toptul items--a set of combination wrenches. Exposure? ..... hardly any. :beer:

superautobacs · May 23, 2015

People need to be understand that the major Japanese screwdriver manufacturers no longer manufacture to JIS standards. They haven't for some time already. They produce to higher, international standards. That said, they still fit JIS-conforming fasteners.

What this means, and if I'm not mistaken, is that you don't necessarily need to have a (now antiquated) JIS-conforming screwdriver from "***" Japanese brand.

My advise is to purchase several different #2/PH2 screwdrivers/bits (or whatever size you use the most) from different companies (Asian, American, European).

RiverRider · May 23, 2015

I am not attempting to sell a point of view or opinion at all here.

In my experience, a Phillips will not work well on a pozi-drive screw. I encounter these on a random basis, and in fact will be in Germany in the next few weeks and will see if I can find out why the manufacturer is using pozi-drive screws and what I believe may be frearson style screws depeniding on the day of the week, evidently.

I cannot easily locate the on-line graphic which led me to believe that JIS is the same as pozi-drive...just as well. But it does seem to me that what is represented to be frearson is the same as JIS, at least superficially. If someone here knows the difference I'd be interested in the education.

Sometimes I hate the freekin internet. Everything that's true and factual is here... and unfortunately so is everything that is not. Divining the difference can be a daunting challenge.

dede2897234 · May 24, 2015

RiverRider said:
I am not attempting to sell a point of view or opinion at all here.

In my experience, a Phillips will not work well on a pozi-drive screw. I encounter these on a random basis, and in fact will be in Germany in the next few weeks and will see if I can find out why the manufacturer is using pozi-drive screws and what I believe may be frearson style screws depeniding on the day of the week, evidently.

I cannot easily locate the on-line graphic which led me to believe that JIS is the same as pozi-drive...just as well. But it does seem to me that what is represented to be frearson is the same as JIS, at least superficially. If someone here knows the difference I'd be interested in the education.

Sometimes I hate the freekin internet. Everything that's true and factual is here... and unfortunately so is everything that is not. Divining the difference can be a daunting challenge.

RiverRider,

Frearson is not the same as the former JIS standard. According to this Instructables document, Frearson has a 75 degree V shape (search for Step 9) and JIS had a 57 degree point (search for Step 10).

However, people have been using Frearson (or Reed & Prince) screwdriver bits to remove damaged JIS-conforming fasteners. If you would like to purchase a Reed & Prince #2 screwdriver bit, Snap-on still offers them for sale here: LINK.

Dave

Snap_cap · May 24, 2015

dede2897234 said:
RiverRider,

Frearson is not the same as the former JIS standard. According to this Instructables document, Frearson has a 75 degree V shape (search for Step 9) and JIS had a 57 degree point (search for Step 10).

However, people have been using Frearson (or Reed & Prince) screwdriver bits to remove damaged JIS-conforming fasteners. If you would like to purchase a Reed & Prince #2 screwdriver bit, Snap-on still offers them for sale here: LINK.

Dave

Craftsman used to make a Reed & Prince screwdriver #4114

RiverRider · May 24, 2015

Thanks, guys.

I think what I may do pretty soon is post a couple of photos of the hardware I'm dealing with. I think there's little doubt that some of it is pozi-drive, but the other looks like frearson but it seems as though a phillips bit works just fine on them. Yeah, I can shop for some pozi-drive bits and continue using phillips bits for the other, but that does not satisfy my desire to know. I'm sure many here can relate.

Interesting thread.

dede2897234 · May 24, 2015

Snap_cap said:
Craftsman used to make a Reed & Prince screwdriver #4114

Snap_cap,

Thanks for the information! I saw a little bit ago an old Craftsman Reed & Prince on eBay: LINK.

Dave

rob1200 · May 24, 2015

superautobacs said:
People need to be understand that the major Japanese screwdriver manufacturers no longer manufacture to JIS standards. They haven't for some time already...

Now I'm confused. Amazon lists numerous Vessel JIS screwdrivers, such as this one:

Vessel 900 Megadora +2x150 (JIS) +2 Screwdriver
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000TGF8YI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Is it not really JIS? Or is it New Old Stock? Or is there another explanation?

Thanks

dede2897234 · May 24, 2015

rob1200 said:
Now I'm confused. Amazon lists numerous Vessel JIS screwdrivers, such as this one:

Vessel 900 Megadora +2x150 (JIS) +2 Screwdriver
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000TGF8YI/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Is it not really JIS? Or is it New Old Stock? Or is there another explanation?

Thanks

rob1200,

The Vessel 900 Megadora you saw on Amazon is current stock. It is labeled as JIS due to its ability to drive JIS-conforming fasteners. However, the Vessel Megadora was manufactured to the DIN 5260 standard. The JIS standard has been defunct since 2008 as currently stated on the bottom of Vessel Tools' N.A. distributor here: LINK.

Dave

superautobacs · May 24, 2015

The mention of "JIS" on product description is very much a part of marketing campaign. ....and it seems to have worked over the past several years from all the awareness....awareness with a bit of misinformation thrown in

rlitman · May 25, 2015

Well, SOME misinformation, but no worse than what I see with Robertson bits.
The DIN 5260-PH standard was based on the JIS standard.

wyo george · May 25, 2015

I'll skip the misc side discussions and just toss out that I work on motorcycles with JIS screws on an almost daily basis and I love my Hozen drivers.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

dede2897234 · May 25, 2015

dede2897234 said:
dnschmidt,

Thanks for posting a picture of your Toptul Phillips screwdriver. It is safe to assume that the Toptul black and green Phillips screwdrivers with the hex blade will drive the old JIS fasteners (with the dimple at the top) without stripping the fastener. I am curious about the relatively new Toptul Phillips screwdrivers I've seen on their website that I circled in the below picture about their DIN 5260 compliance.

Will I get an answer soon from Toptul customer service??? Pretty please!

Dave

Last night, I received an e-mail from a representative from Toptul corporate in Taiwan. Here is the e-mail:

The older Toptul hex blade, go-thru screwdrivers (see posts #21, 23) were manufactured to DIN 5260 standards (compatible with JIS-conforming fasteners).

However, the above Toptul representative said that all the new Toptul screwdrivers are manufactured to DIN 8764 standards. It means they will drive just Phillips fasteners and NOT JIS-conforming fasteners.

Dave

Jure · May 25, 2015

dede2897234 said:
Last night, I received an e-mail from a representative from Toptul corporate in Taiwan. Here is the e-mail:

The older Toptul hex blade, go-thru screwdrivers (see posts #21, 23) were manufactured to DIN 5260 standards (compatible with JIS-conforming fasteners).

However, the above Toptul representative said that all the new Toptul screwdrivers are manufactured to DIN 8764 standards. It means they will drive just Phillips fasteners and NOT JIS-conforming fasteners.

Dave

thanks for the update Dave

Quality Hard-Handle JIS Screwdrivers?

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