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"S.R." Sockets? Can't seem to find any info.

T_Curlee

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I inherited a number of "S.R." deep sockets from my father - 4 ea of 3/8" and 1/2" drive. Other than the size, they all look alike except that some (one 1/2" and two 3/8") are not marked with S.R. With the dull silver-gray finish, I assume that they are cad plated. Any idea who made these sockets and who "S.R." might be?

Thanks,

Tom
 

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3baygarage

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I asked this question a while back and some one suggested Sturtevant Richmont, the torque wrench company.

I have seen no definitive proof yet like a socket box or anything. They had to have come packed in something. :dunno:
 

Private Lugnutz

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I've seen the claim, but never the proof.

I personally believe it to be unlikely.

+2

I highly doubt it.

First of all, they never put their own name on anything. Discounting the modern era DOE, DBE and combination wrenches, a very early (pre-Craftsman era) socket set produced by Hinsdale and Mossberg (pressed steel) had their name on the lid, not the tools. Secondly, those sockets look hot-broached, and, if they are cadmium plated, that would indicate either economy line or wartime tools, and they don't resemble the sockets made for Sears Roebuck by Snap-On (C-Series), New Britain (BE, Circle-H), or SK (Circle-K) in that era.

I asked this question a while back and some one suggested Sturtevant Richmont, the torque wrench company.
Hi 3bay. When you asked, was it because you had seen the "[S.R.]" on sockets or a different tool? And, are you thinking Sturtevant Richmont made the sockets? Or, that they had them made for them to sell in kits with their torque wrenches?

I have this old plomb ratchet with an SR marking.
Interesting, but note that it's slightly different. Tom's initials have period or full stop marks after each one and is enclosed by a rectangle; yours has no periods and is enclosed by a hexagon.
 

four.cycle

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Lugnutz said:
"...they never put their own name on anything..."

yeah... they put "SEARS" on all kinds of sockets and ratchets and wrenches - imports from Taiwan and Japan. low-end stuff but actually pretty decent quality. for reasons which I fail to understand, they are apparently "collector items". :headscrat:

Sears metric socket set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sears-1-4-a...394144?hash=item360020f620:g:oEIAAOSw9uFW-WEa

Sears SAE socket set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sea...861174?hash=item3f62a41936:g:lQIAAOSwX~dWkxPF

Sears metric combination wrench set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEARS-FORGE...:g:nTgAAOSw~bFWFps3&item=152068051543&vxp=mtr

Sears metric offset double-end box wrench set:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SEARS-Metri...:g:TEUAAOSwgApXC~MR&item=331829088253&vxp=mtr

... I'm goin' with "Stevie Ray" .... good a guess as any so far! ;)
 

lbgradwell

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If I had to guess, I'd back Sturtevant Richmont given the proximity of Richmont in Monrovia to Plomb-Proto in L.A. during the WF era.
 
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PowderKeg

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I have this old plomb ratchet with an SR marking.

Is that the only marking on the ratchet, or is it also marked Plomb? Is there a part/model #?

I have a couple older Plomb/Proto sourced ratchets for Pep Boys' Artcraft store brand that only have part #markings that appear unique to Artcraft.

If I had to guess, I'd back Sturtevant Richmont given the proximity of Richmont in Monrovia to Plomb-Proto in L.A. during the WF era.

Methinks LG is on to something. Now I gotta go add S.R. to the ratchet brand list and start obsessively searching for one.....:willy_nil
 

Private Lugnutz

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:lol: yeah... you did... I guess it depends upon the definition of "modern".
Okay, fair enough... (My definition of "modern" is probably severe, and I am not going to open up that old can of worms! :evil:) But the sockets in question are clearly not contemporary to the Japanese SEARS-marked stuff, which is what I was referring to. (I see your headscratch and raise you one WTF, O?! on why they are collectible, but my hunch has to do with the same reason a large segment of the 20-something generation seems to be so fond of low-end Japanese cars with fart cans.)
 
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T_Curlee

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A little more info on my S.R. marked sockets.

My father lived in Los Angeles after WWII and attended some kind of a diesel trade school (National Trade Schools, or whatever they called themselves in the early 1950's perhaps?). His stash of Plomb/Proto tools may have partially come from that era and area. He also frequented yard/garage sales all his life, so the sockets may have been acquired any time up to the late 1990's in the LA area. I think I've read that Plomb would provide tool kits to returning GIs if they were enrolled in a trade school. Could the sockets have been acquired through the trade school?

I looked over the S.R. sockets again and don't see any marking anywhere on the socket other than the size (on all) and the S.R. on some. I compared them to a couple of deep Proto sockets I have. The S.R. and Proto sockets are close to the same length - some within +/-0.005", others average +/-0.03". The 2 Proto deep sockets (one marked Proto Los Angeles MFD USA, the other Proto MFD. USA.) both have an approximate 0.395" through hole for a lever bar while the S.R. sockets only have a small hole for the spring retainer ball in the ratchet. The broaching depth seems to be a bit deeper on the Proto sockets.

And, to just stir things up a bit, I have 2 of my fathers ratchets. One, a 3/8", marked MFD. PROTO LOS ANGELES U.S.A. on one side and Proto WF-21 on the other. The other, a 1/2", is marked MADE IN WF-38 U.S.A. on one side and the other side is unmarked. I admit to not doing my homework here, but is the WF marking Wright Field or a Proto model prefix?

Tom
 

four.cycle

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completely off-topic here, but:

Lugnutz said:
"...why they are collectible..."

I'm not going to burn up a lot of calories (or brain cells) trying to figure it out... but it does puzzle me. Not nearly so much, however, as the seemingly similar reverence for (of all things) JC Penny "Penncraft" brand:

listed today at about noon Pacific time:

JC Penney PENNCRAFT 18-pc 1/4" and 3/8" drive SAE socket set w/box
3/16" - 3/4"
used
$19.99 incl. shipping "buy now"
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Pen...:g:GjwAAOSwcL5XMMEX&item=301952484958&vxp=mtr

sold today at 15:52 Pacific time.

go figure!
 
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Harry Bergeron

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When I look at the size markings on these sockets,
they look identical to those on Plomb sockets [and
wrenches, for that matter].
That distinctive font was continued to Proto tools, as well.
 

Private Lugnutz

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I think I've read that Plomb would provide tool kits to returning GIs if they were enrolled in a trade school.
That is absolutely true, Tom.

Plomb_Advert_Veterans_1946.jpg


They also sold two different Master Tool Sets for Veterans, model numbers 9900A and B, at discount prices.

Whether or not these "[S.R.]" sockets came out of the trade school, I don't know. I suppose it's possible, although I would think that Plomb would want to advertise not obscure their association with that practice.

...is the WF marking Wright Field or a Proto model prefix?

That the design of the Plomb WF ratchets “survived the war,” as lgradwell so aptly put it, is evident by the WF ratchets, like yours, that have appeared in exceptionally rare numbers with “PROTO” marked on them instead of “PLVMB.” Whether they are 1950’s production is questionable, in my opinion. I happen to think they were made with old stock and/or old dies in the late 1940’s.

Here’s my rationale…

They are nearly identical in construction and finish to the Plomb WF-38 and WF-21. Differences (e.g., screw heads, selector) are very minor. I don’t know of anyone who has ever taken a Proto WF ratchet apart, but I’d be curious to know if the guts (cam, pawl dogs, gear, gear bosses, etc) were the same. My bet would be yes, whereas the early generation true Proto production corollaries (5249, 5449) were different. In terms of markings, some of the examples of Proto WF ratchets are stamped with “PROTO” on the face plate, others have it forged on the topside of the handle where the old “V PLVMB V” logo was, and some have been found with a “v PLVMB v” forged handle and a “PROTO” stamped face plate.

Why the Proto WF-38 and WF-21 ratchets were made and for who remains unknown, as far as I know. But note that the last (ninth of nine) of Plomb's successive “Wright Field” contracts (technically, for the US Army Air Corps, part of the US Army Air Forces, headquartered out of “Wright Field” – more accurately, Fairfield Aviation Supply Depot, in Ohio), which produced massive amounts of "WF" marked tools, ended in 1946. It’s possible that they were some kind of hip pocket purchase orders from the US Army Air Corps in the period between the end of the war and the Korean War. This was a time of rapid growth and transition for the services, which is a combination that resulted in murky records.

Technically, first use of Proto was some time in 1948. But I believe it could’ve been sooner, and as early as but probably no earlier than 1946, when Plumb raised their stink for the second time.

There is no record, as far as I am aware, of Proto having a “Wright Field” contract in the 1950’s. Note also that it would’ve made little sense, since the US Army Air Corps was abolished in 1947 (when the US Air Force was created), and Wright Field, Patterson Field, and Fairfield Aviation Supply Depot became Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in 1948.

Also, note that there are no Proto “WF” marked sockets, extensions, or other handles for 3/8-inch drive or 1/2-inch drive or any other drive like the wartime Plomb “WF” tools, as far as I know.

So, from my perspective, if they were made in the 1950’s, when Proto came into being as an official entity, the “WF” would not signify “Wright Field” in the way that it did for Plomb during the war. It would be more of a branding reference to their legacy. But the absence of sockets and extensions to go with them is not consistent with that theory. They just don’t seem like they were part of an entire model line of Proto tools.
 
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T_Curlee

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I checked through the Plomb/Proto sockets that I have and didn't see any marked Proto WF (or for that matter, didn't see any Plomb sockets marked WF either). I do have a partial set of Proto Los Angeles marked sockets along with a set of Plomb marked 3/8" to 3/4" 12xx series combo wrenches. It's possible that my father acquired a veterans set of tools, with some marked Proto and some Plomb. Could it be that the veterans sets were partially "left over" WF production tools that were used to make up these discounted sets?

Attached are 2 photos of the front and rear of the 2 ratchets that I can find. I thought there was also a 1/4" ratchet, but I haven't found it yet.

It's sad that you think of all the questions you want to ask a parent after they're gone.
 

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Private Lugnutz

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Could it be that the veterans sets were partially "left over" WF production tools that were used to make up these discounted sets?
Absolutely, but I wouldn't limit the surplus to only their "WF" production. While Plomb is best known for its USAAF contracts, they also had contracts with the US Army Ordnance Dept, Treasury (Lend Lease, and Federal Standard Stock Catalog), and Navy. Lots of Plomb DOE's and DBE's with Navy stock numbers ("NAF-***") on them out there.

Attached are 2 photos of the front and rear of the 2 ratchets that I can find.

Your WF-38 is very unusual. A FOAK, as far as I know. Unless I'm missing it, I don't see a Plomb or a Proto mark. Typically, the Proto WF-38 ratchets look just like yours, but have "PROTO" stamped at the top of the face plate, and sometimes also between the plug and selector, with a small "US" and another "WF-38". Some (I would say fewer) have "PROTO" forged into the top side of the handle. Most are blank there, like yours. Your ratchet, with only the "MADE IN WF-38 U.S.A." and neither a "v PLVMB V" or a "PROTO" forged or stamped into it, is the first I have seen, and it lends more credence to my theory. Based on its markings alone, away from the context of this topic, and away from the context of the Proto marked WF-21, there is nothing to suggest that it's anything other than an unmarked Plomb tool, made in wartime or shortly thereafter. After they stopped forging them with "v PLVMB v" but before they started using "PROTO." A transitional, if you will. It's also unusual for the slightly raised area that the WF-38 is forged into inside the handle panel. That is usually smooth.

It looks like your WF-21 was disassembled and reassembled upside down at some point in time. The drive plug is with the two little selector switch stop notches on the top side of the handle, and the selector switch is on the bottom side of the handle.

It's sad that you think of all the questions you want to ask a parent after they're gone.
Amen, and ain't that the truth.
 

lbgradwell

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That the design of the Plomb WF ratchets “survived the war,” as lgradwell so aptly put it, is evident by the WF ratchets, like yours, that have appeared in exceptionally rare numbers with “PROTO” marked on them instead of “PLVMB.” Whether they are 1950’s production is questionable, in my opinion. I happen to think they were made with old stock and/or old dies in the late 1940’s....

Technically, first use of Proto was some time in 1948. But I believe it could’ve been sooner, and as early as but probably no earlier than 1946, when Plumb raised their stink for the second time.

Tom's WF-21 pictured above is the perfect example of why I think actual production of the WF ratchets could have made it into the 1950s.

I agree that there may have been (and likely was) a large stock of these tools at the end of hostilities. And many of this stock may have been unmarked with any branding; certainly such examples are not rare. Whether the lack of branding was intentional with , say, a view to stamp them post-war with a retailer's name or something of the sort or by mere necessity, I cannot say.

But Tom's ratchet is forged with the new Proto name and also includes "Los Angeles". If one accepts the 1949-56 time frame for the "Los Angeles"-era, Tom's ratchet could only have been made in 1949 at the earliest and, obviously, employing brand new dies. And I can think of no reason why production should have ceased in 1949...
 
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Private Lugnutz

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My point is that the persistence of the "WF" begins to defy logic after 1948, L., especially in the absence an entire line of tools, but, I agree that the L.A. forged types certainly imply 50's if the Proto "L.A." period is correct. (I've always thought it strange they went back to it after abandoning it once before, but that's way off topic.)
 

Private Lugnutz

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I asked this question a while back and some one suggested Sturtevant Richmont, the torque wrench company.

If I had to guess, I'd back Sturtevant Richmont given the proximity of Richmont in Monrovia to Plomb-Proto in L.A. during the WF era.

I picked up a bunch of vintage catalogs at an estate sale last week, and one of them was this Sturtevant.

20160604_160400_zpsbtejwewz.jpg


20160604_161631_zpswaxnvlzn.jpg


Note the solo name and date (1964). I'm assuming this indicates the two companies had not merged yet. The brief history article on the Sturtevant-Richmont website (which lists corporate HQ in Chicago area) does not say when the merger occurred.

This casts doubt, in my opinion, on the theory that the “[S.R.]” marking found on sockets with 40’s and 50’s era Plomb construction characteristics may indicate Sturtevant Richmont. Assuming that the Richmont that lgradwell says was located in the L.A. area is the Richmont that merged with Sturtevant, I suppose it’s possible that the sockets were in-house at their plant for many years, and the markings were added many years later, due to some corporate property management edict to mark everything not nailed down with the initials of the new post-merger initials. But the theory seems less likely to me now than it did before, when it was assumed that Sturtevant Richmont existed as a corporate entity in the 40’s and 50’s at the same time as these sockets look like they were made by Plomb.

Thoughts?
 

notlob

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This would support your theory, a Plomb torque wrench marked "Sturtevant" only (from Alloy Artifacts). On the other hand, it also shows that Plomb and Sturtevant were doing business in the subject time frame.

plomb_12dr_5402_wrench_torque_cropped_inset3.jpg
 
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3baygarage

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Interesting finds there gentlemen. I have to agree Private, the sockets would appear to long predate the catalog. In time we will find out for sure what they are.

In the meantime, I passed up 3 sockets at a recent sale do to a difference of opinion in value, lol.
 

twertsy

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I find the SR (with square surrounding) sockets around here in VA quite often. My vote is certainly against an internal to the factory only brand. They're way too widely distributed for that in my opinion.
 

Private Lugnutz

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I agree. And if anyone else was wondering, there are no sockets (or swivel joints, 3Bay) in the 1964 Sturtevant catalog. That was the first thing I checked for. Special attachments, but no standard sockets or unis. Maybe that changed later, after the merger with Richmont, but that wouldn't explain the anachronism ("[S.R.]" markings on sockets with 1940's/early 50's era construction and finish features).
 

Private Lugnutz

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Boys, Boys, Boys...I want too hear more stories (although theory and conjecture are also ok ).

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300651

Hi Woody,

Thanks for your reply.

I can't reply to the post you linked (since it's a thread on the 'MADE IN U.S.A.' board), so I will move your statement here and reply below...

woody73 said:
That was the first name in the equation then in 1940 he joined up with Richmont A Brilliant man in his own right with many patents to his name to form the Sturtevant Richmont Co.

That's not accurate. First of all, Richmont is not a man. You are referring to Frank Livermont. If you watch and listen to the video more carefully, it clearly explains that P.A. Sturtevant and Frank Livermont each formed separate companies (the P.A. Sturtevant Company, and Richmont) in 1940, and that each company invented and produced products for the torque measuring industry throughout the war and post-war boom, separately. The video goes on to say that Sturtevant and Richmont merged in 1974.

That is helpful. That confirms why only the Sturtevant name is on the front of a 1964 catalog. And it confirms the doubt cast on a "[S.R.]" marking on sockets made in the 1940's and 1950's as standing for Sturtevant-Richmont, a corporate entity that did no exist until 1974.
 
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3baygarage

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I agree. And if anyone else was wondering, there are no sockets (or swivel joints, 3Bay) in the 1964 Sturtevant catalog. That was the first thing I checked for. Special attachments, but no standard sockets or unis. Maybe that changed later, after the merger with Richmont, but that wouldn't explain the anachronism ("[S.R.]" markings on sockets with 1940's/early 50's era construction and finish features).

That catalog is a nice pickup and thanks for checking. Glad you had these sockets in mind too when you bought it.
 

Private Lugnutz

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Found at a NJ flea market today, Gents...

20160625_154857_zpsxw2tnkff.jpg


Straight wall, hot broached, double hex.

Curiously, the 11/16 did not get the "[SR]" stamp, but it's clearly the same socket. These have some box rot, as did the Snappy and Crafty sockets that were in the same box, all similar vintage.

They're still chromium mysterium, but I figured I'd joint the club. :)
 
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