Vintage Craftsman Sockets

jywilli69 · Sep 17, 2017

Hey guys, I don't know why, but I pulled the trigger on a small Vintage Craftsman 1/2" Socket Set. The tools have the Circle H stamped on it, so I now they are made in America. Always see people posting goodies, so I thought I would start off my collection with sockets 1st. Is the Circle H good ones? I paying $49 for them, I hope I didn't shoot myself in the foot. :beer:

thehorse13 · Sep 18, 2017

That is a nice set. The old Craftsman stuff is very high quality. 50 bucks is retail pricing around here for a set like that.

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

jywilli69 said:
The tools have the Circle H stamped on it, so I now they are made in America.

By Husky (New Britain), circa late 1930's.

jywilli69 said:
I paying $49 for them, I hope I didn't shoot myself in the foot.

It's all relative. I've sold very similar partial sets of underline Craftsman Circle H and BE for twice that amount to WWII collectors. On the other hand, it is possible to piece a set together in onesy twosies at flea markets for half that. You one fell swooped it and you got the all-important push-pull drive plug/adapter. That can be very difficult to find.

twertsy · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
By Husky (New Britain), circa late 1930's.

It's all relative. I've sold very similar partial sets of underline Craftsman Circle H and BE for twice that amount to WWII collectors. On the other hand, it is possible to piece a set together in onesy twosies at flea markets for half that. You one fell swooped it and you got the all-important push-pull drive plug/adapter. That can be very difficult to find.

? Why do you say "by Husky?'

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

Good question. Just being sloppy. New Britain would be more accurate. Tools with Circle-NB, NONE BETTER, Husky, and Craftsman BE and Circle-H were all made with the same or similar dies or series of dies, jy. You bought into an empire and you done good!

twertsy · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
Good question. Just being sloppy. New Britain would be more accurate. Tools with Circle-NB, NONE BETTER, Husky, and Craftsman BE and Circle-H were all made with the same or similar dies or series of dies, jy. You bought into an empire and you done good!

Whew...........thought you were holding out on some super secret information on me!

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

Nope. I thought I had some notes linking Circle-H to Husky (as in their old Kenosha plant being used as a production facility for Husky as a New Britain managed brand and re-tooled with New Britain dies) and BE to New Britain proper (as in, in New Britain), but I think it's just a latent misconception.

txlonghorn1989 · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
By Husky (New Britain), circa late 1930's.

It's all relative. I've sold very similar partial sets of underline Craftsman Circle H and BE for twice that amount to WWII collectors. On the other hand, it is possible to piece a set together in onesy twosies at flea markets for half that. You one fell swooped it and you got the all-important push-pull drive plug/adapter. That can be very difficult to find.

What is the "all important push-pull drive plug/adapter"?

twertsy · Sep 18, 2017

txlonghorn1989 said:
What is the "all important push-pull drive plug/adapter"?

because they are usually gone/missing/kapooy!

DadsTools · Sep 18, 2017

Nice set!

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

That little rectangular plug with the detent balls. The OP's ratchet has a female drive opening and it's not reversible. These were called standard ratchets after the advent of reversible ratchet, and eventually phased out by most Mfgrs by the late 40's. The plug pushes through to one side of the ratchet or the other and is used to attach the sockets.

txlonghorn1989 · Sep 18, 2017

twertsy said:
because they are usually gone/missing/kapooy!

I'm being literal. What is the thing you describe? Got a pic of one?

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

txlonghorn1989 said:
I'm being literal. What is the thing you describe? Got a pic of one?

See my last post.

twertsy · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
Nope. I thought I had some notes linking Circle-H to Husky (as in their old Kenosha plant being used as a production facility for Husky as a New Britain managed brand and re-tooled with New Britain dies) and BE to New Britain proper (as in, in New Britain), but I think it's just a latent misconception.

In my research the Husky plant and all equipment was sold in '35. Then I found another article noting all equipment was scooped up and moved immediately to CT.

Too bad the xfer of the Husky underline trademark is missing but it HAD to have been done. Skips from Mandl registering it in 1924 to NB assigning it to Litton in '73.

txlonghorn1989 · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
That little rectangular plug with the detent balls. The OP's ratchet has a female drive opening and it's not reversible. These were called standard ratchets after the advent of reversible ratchet, and eventually phased out by most Mfgrs by the late 40's. The plug pushes through to one side of the ratchet or the other and is used to attach the sockets.

You're talking about these then? These were in those Craftsman gray & red toolboxes I bought a few months back. I didn't know what they were for. When I saw Twertsy say they were hard to find I had a sinking feeling in my stomach because I was pretty sure I'd thrown them out or tossed them in a box of stuff I sold. Went out to check and found them with the old sockets.

The larger is 1/2". It has no make on it. The smaller is 3/8" and is made by Walden. Stamped 4011. This wrench which I'd posted when I posted all the tools I found in the toolboxes has no maker marks. It is certainly heavy and very well made. The head on that wrench swings left or right just a bit like 1/2" either way. Anyway to know who the maker might be? Same goes for the 1/2" push/pull plug adapter?

PS Also, it isn't my intention to highjack jy's thread. Nice get with the Circle-H sockets. They are high quality and far better than anything you'd buy today. IMO.

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

Yes, those are drive plugs for a female ratchet.

If I'm reading you correctly, your "swinging" female ratchet is VERY interesting! Hinsdale had a very early ratchet like that. The pawl tooth is actually part of the handle inside that open-style head. It pivots around the pin to engage and release the gears. But the Hinsdale ratchet had a flatter steel handle. Maybe they made a later one pinned to a round stock forged steel handle. Please post a pic of the ratchet on its side showing the open head. EDIT: And one of the flip side. Also, what is the drive size?

Username already in use · Sep 18, 2017

Cornwell also had a similar ratchet with the round handle.

Rileysan · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
Nope. I thought I had some notes linking Circle-H to Husky (as in their old Kenosha plant being used as a production facility for Husky as a New Britain managed brand and re-tooled with New Britain dies) and BE to New Britain proper (as in, in New Britain), but I think it's just a latent misconception.

Just catching up on this thread and saw this comment. I'm fascinated by this and am wondering if you could start a thread about it. I have some early Husky sockets that at first glance, I thought were Craftsman/New Britain sockets.

Brian

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

Rileysan said:
I have some early Husky sockets that at first glance, I thought were Craftsman/New Britain sockets.

What do you mean by "early", Brian? Do you mean from before they were bought out by New Britain?

After that, it's well established that Husky was merely a division or managed brand, if you will, of New Britain. Late 1930's and 1940's era Husky socket drive tools are identical to late 1930's and 1940's era New Britain (Circle-NB), NONE BETTER, and also Craftsman BE and Craftsman Circle-H, made by New Britain. What I was referring to was a distinction between Craftsman Circle-H and BE internal to the New Britain empire. The question, "Why two codes for tools made by the same OEM?" is probably what fueled my speculation. Unless I'm mistaken, that's odd for Craftsman and its many maker's codes. Well, that, and me just very simply and crudely associating the "H" with Husky. But Todd's research is solid, and if you look at the 1938 Husky catalog, the address is New Britain, Conn., and it's the same address as New Britain, EDIT: and I can't find anything substantive in my notes for my H=Husky/BE=New Britain speculation, or the re-tooling the old Kenosha plant speculation.

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

txlonghorn1989: I found your ratchet, which I am assuming is 1/2-inch female drive. Go to page 15 of the "1931 Hinsdale catalog" on the Tools Archive. It's part of the Bobcat-50 socket set shown on the page. On page 10 in the same file the ratchet is shown as the H-1 with the older flat rectangular stock handle. I would like a chance to discuss this with Todd, but I think what he has scanned there in that file may be a variety of pages from several Hinsdale catalogs that someone kept in that "Hinsdale Binder" that appears when you first open the file. The evolution of that style of crude ratcheting wrench seems to have gone from hex drive with flat stock handle to square drive with flat stock handle to square drive with round stock handle. I could be wrong. I just don't know why they would advertise the H-1 with a flat steel handle and then five pages later show it as part of a large modern socket set with a round steel handle.

At any rate, you can view the patent (1,650,085) at the USPTO site, or here on the DATAMP site.

twertsy · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
What do you mean by "early", Brian? Do you mean from before they were bought out by New Britain?

After that, it's well established that Husky was merely a division or managed brand, if you will, of New Britain. Late 1930's and 1940's era Husky socket drive tools are identical to late 1930's and 1940's era New Britain (Circle-NB), NONE BETTER, and also Craftsman BE and Craftsman Circle-H, made by New Britain. What I was referring to was a distinction between Craftsman Circle-H and BE internal to the New Britain empire. The question, "Why two codes for tools made by the same OEM?" is probably what fueled my speculation. Unless I'm mistaken, that's odd for Craftsman and its many maker's codes. Well, that, and me just very simply and crudely associating the "H" with Husky. But Todd's research is solid, and if you look at the 1938 Husky catalog, the address is New Britain, Conn., and it's the same address as New Britain, EDIT: and I can't find anything substantive in my notes for my H=Husky/BE=New Britain speculation, or the re-tooling the old Kenosha plant speculation.

Off the top of my head, BM and Circle K - Both S-K, same era. C-## and CF-## - Supposedly Snap-on, same era. We're getting into some of my reasons for asserting those aren't Mfg. codes, they are "contract series" codes as far as I'm concerned.

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

Good point. It's all Brian's fault for making me revisit something I had already self-dismissed as an old sloppy misconception. :lol:

Rileysan · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
Good point. It's all Brian's fault for making me revisit something I had already self-dismissed as an old sloppy misconception.

I'm happy to take the blame!

I guess I didn't realize NB acquired Husky that long ago. Of course, I could help myself by looking it up but where's the fun in that?

twertsy · Sep 18, 2017

Rileysan said:
I'm happy to take the blame!

I guess I didn't realize NB acquired Husky that long ago. Of course, I could help myself by looking it up but where's the fun in that?

I hear there's a site for that......... :bounce:

txlonghorn1989 · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
Yes, those are drive plugs for a female ratchet.

If I'm reading you correctly, your "swinging" female ratchet is VERY interesting! Hinsdale had a very early ratchet like that. The pawl tooth is actually part of the handle inside that open-style head. It pivots around the pin to engage and release the gears. But the Hinsdale ratchet had a flatter steel handle. Maybe they made a later one pinned to a round stock forged steel handle. Please post a pic of the ratchet on its side showing the open head. EDIT: And one of the flip side. Also, what is the drive size?

It is 1/2" drive. Diameter of the handle is 11/16".

Pics as requested...

txlonghorn1989 · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
txlonghorn1989: I found your ratchet, which I am assuming is 1/2-inch female drive. Go to page 15 of the "1931 Hinsdale catalog" on the Tools Archive. It's part of the Bobcat-50 socket set shown on the page. On page 10 in the same file the ratchet is shown as the H-1 with the older flat rectangular stock handle. I would like a chance to discuss this with Todd, but I think what he has scanned there in that file may be a variety of pages from several Hinsdale catalogs that someone kept in that "Hinsdale Binder" that appears when you first open the file. The evolution of that style of crude ratcheting wrench seems to have gone from hex drive with flat stock handle to square drive with flat stock handle to square drive with round stock handle. I could be wrong. I just don't know why they would advertise the H-1 with a flat steel handle and then five pages later show it as part of a large modern socket set with a round steel handle.

At any rate, you can view the patent (1,650,085) at the USPTO site, or here on the DATAMP site.

I wonder if the push/pull plug adapter goes with that tool? You can see there are catches on two sides proud of the surface which stop the adapter in the ratchet. I'll take a look at '31 Hinsdale catalog you referenced.

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

Thanks for the photos and specs. Hard to say for sure with it being unmarked, but it sure looks like the Hinsdale 1/2-inch female drive ratchet of that design and patent assignment. Contract production perhaps, or a knockoff.

txlonghorn1989 said:
I wonder if the push/pull plug adapter goes with that tool?

It's a good bet. They're not all interchangeable, because of little things like the detents and stops and such, but a lot of them will work with many female ratchets, even if they weren't original to each other, and I always pick them up just in case, and just because they're so often missing.

twertsy · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
Thanks for the photos and specs. Hard to say for sure with it being unmarked, but it sure looks like the Hinsdale 1/2-inch female drive ratchet of that design and patent assignment. Contract production perhaps, or a knockoff.

It's a good bet. They're not all interchangeable, because of little things like the detents and stops and such, but a lot of them will work with many female ratchets, even if they weren't original to each other, and I always pick them up just in case, and just because they're so often missing.

That rat isn't a rocker I don't believe....

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

txlonghorn1989 · Sep 18, 2017

twertsy said:
That rat isn't a rocker I don't believe....

Sent from my VS990 using Tapatalk

What's a "rocker" Todd?

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

twertsy said:
That rat isn't a rocker I don't believe....

Are you referring to longhorn's ratchet? Or the ratchet (edit: H-6) on page 15 in the Hinsdale catalog? If longhorn's, what other explanation do you have for it "swinging" (his term), "pivoting" (my term) or "rocking" (your term) a 1/2-inch or so back and forth on the pin?

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

longhorn: Did you see the patent drawing on DATAMP? It is illustrating the action of the head of the ratchet pivoting on the pin. Is that what your ratchet is doing?

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

Here are some visuals...

View media item 74781
View media item 74782

txlonghorn1989 · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
longhorn: Did you see the patent drawing on DATAMP? It is illustrating the action of the head of the ratchet pivoting on the pin. Is that what your ratchet is doing?

I misspoke. It doesn't really go left and right but it one direction and then back to straight up. I just checked DATAMP and this looks like exactly what it has to be doing internally. That's cool!

txlonghorn1989 · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
Here are some visuals...

View media item 74781
View media item 74782

In the catalog pics we don't see any markings on the ratchet. Was it customary that Hinsdale put their name on their tools?

Private Lugnutz · Sep 18, 2017

Note that other tools in the same catalog do show markings and I have some of those tools and they are marked as shown.

jywilli69 · Sep 18, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
By Husky (New Britain), circa late 1930's.

It's all relative. I've sold very similar partial sets of underline Craftsman Circle H and BE for twice that amount to WWII collectors. On the other hand, it is possible to piece a set together in onesy twosies at flea markets for half that. You one fell swooped it and you got the all-important push-pull drive plug/adapter. That can be very difficult to find.

I appreciate knowing that Lugnutz, I am glad I didn't overly pay for them. There is a lot of mass knowledge on these tools. I would have never known that if it wasn't for the thread on Craftsman tools.

Jayson

Private Lugnutz · Sep 19, 2017

No problem, Jayson, our pleasure, and sorry for hijacking your thread!

I have an orphan CRAFTSMAN Circle-H 1/2-inch drive sliding tee you can have for the cost of shipping. The WWII GMTK sets I collect were not issued this handle and I don't need it. It has been bent on one end of the handle, so the drive head can only slide from the other end to just past the middle or so. It is totally useable as an L handle or a T handle, and you should be able to straighten it with heat and a vise. The brand marking is excellent.

PM me if you're interested.

jywilli69 · Sep 20, 2017

Private Lugnutz said:
No problem, Jayson, our pleasure, and sorry for hijacking your thread!

I have an orphan CRAFTSMAN Circle-H 1/2-inch drive sliding tee you can have for the cost of shipping. The WWII GMTK sets I collect were not issued this handle and I don't need it. It has been bent on one end of the handle, so the drive head can only slide from the other end to just past the middle or so. It is totally useable as an L handle or a T handle, and you should be able to straighten it with heat and a vise. The brand marking is excellent.

PM me if you're interested.

Completely alright, atleast I get to learn something. :beer:

Private Lugnutz · Sep 20, 2017

Hi jywilli69,

I answered your PM.

Here are some photos of that 1/2-inch drive sliding tee with the Long C geometric Craftsman logo and the Circle-H code. The bend is not as bad as I remembered, and is almost undetectable in certain positions (see Photo 1). It's visible when it's sitting on the back of the drive head. I put a rule as a straight edge next to it so you can see it (Photo 2). I wouldn't even bother trying to straighten it, although I would probably dress up the mushroomed ends with a file. The drive head actually slides all the way out to the stops on that end despite the bend (see Photo 3), so this is useful as a T or an L handle on either end. And if you just want to admire your set in an original Craftsman box, it ain't too shabby either! As I said, the marking is very good (see Photo 4). Yours for the cost of shipping whenever you're ready.

Private Lugnutz · Sep 25, 2017

TLH1989: I just noticed that 3baygarage posted a Hinsdale socket set with your pivoting patent ratchet in this Hinsdale thread a few months ago.

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