Let's see your Billings and Spencer goodies
- Thread starter LoveSniff
- Start date
GaryM909
Well-known member
I picked up a 12" adjustable wrench today. It says 12" CRESCENT Drop Forged Steel on one side. The other side says CAN : BILLINGS & SPENCER WELLAND ONT
This wrench looks to be very old. The forging looks rough. There is also a raised letter A and a stamped D. Also a stamped A and D.
I can't find any info on this Crescent Wrench.
This wrench looks to be very old. The forging looks rough. There is also a raised letter A and a stamped D. Also a stamped A and D.
I can't find any info on this Crescent Wrench.
Attachments
3baygarage
Well-known member
Gary, interesting wrench. I don’t know where Crescent comes in. They may have served as a mfr. for Billings and Spencer.
What looks like a raised “A” is a triangle with a B inside. The Billings logo. It would appear someone modified it with their initials AD.
Here is an example of a 6” wrench like yours on ebay:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Billings-Spencer-6-Adjustable-S-Wrench-Excellent-Condition/382275326881?hash=item59016293a1:g
tMAAOSw8DJaAN~9
woody 73
Well-known member
If you are needing any more information an old post of mine:
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277390&highlight=billings+spencer
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=277390&highlight=billings+spencer
Last edited:
Oldtuleguy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2017
- Messages
- 10,461
GaryM909
Well-known member
I don’t know where Crescent comes in. They may have served as a mfr. for Billings and Spencer.
I spent a bit of time searching the internet about this wrench. Not too much information. I figured it was worth the $2.00 C just to drive myself nuts researching it. I actually learned a bit about Billings & Spencer so i guess that wasn't too bad.
I spent a bit of time searching the internet about this wrench. Not too much information. I figured it was worth the $2.00 C just to drive myself nuts researching it. I actually learned a bit about Billings & Spencer so i guess that wasn't too bad.
Attachments
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
It was definitely made by Crescent. I suspect it was for use in the Billings & Spencer plant in Welland, though, not for sale by B&S Welland. That would be odd. The Canadian B&S entity was part of an early Canadian heavy forging conglomerate making machinery and big parts for railroads and industry in Welland. I could be wrong, but I don't think they were retailing tools.
Ironically, it was Crescent Niagara that bought out B&S in the 60's.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
One of my oldest ratchets is a Billings & Spencer. This is the model CA and it came in their wooden box era pressed steel socket sets, c. 1920-ish. Fortunately, the push-pull plug, often missing in female push-pull drive plug ratchets, was still present. It really didn't have a choice, since it was fused from oxidation in the drive opening.
Attachments
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
The tool that Billings & Spencer is most well-known for in the WWII community is their Model G 11-inch automobile wrench. The Quartermaster Corps, and then the Ordnance Dept (which assumed responsibility for all wheeled and tracked vehicles in mid 1942), specified "Billings & Spencer or Equal" in their Engineering Specification for the 1/4-Ton 4 x 4 Reconnaissance Vehicle (otherwise known as the "Jeep") On-Board Tool-Set. As a space-saving measure, the handle of the 11-inch auto wrench was used to turn the wheel hub wrench, which was made in-house by Willys and later supplied by a separate mfgr. I've had a few over the years.
Here are some photos of one from my Willys MB toolkit...
Here are some photos of one from my Willys MB toolkit...
Attachments
Last edited:
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Short answer: Yes.
Longer answer: Fairmount had been generally accepted as at the very least a potentially late war supplier based on one being found in a toolkit in reportedly NOS unmolested condition found in a surplus Willys MB with a late 1945 date of delivery. A few years ago I found a reference to a model number "893", without a mfgr's code, for the 11-inch auto wrench in a review of Willys Materials Surveys (prepared annually for the War Production Board) unearthed at NARA by a colleague, Bob Westerman (of CJ2A website fame). I was able correlate that model number to a 1941 Fairmount catalog, confirming Fairmount as a supplier as early as May 1943. This and other information was included in Volume 5, Chapter 40, of Lloyd White's "Evolution of the Willys MB Jeep" series of books, co-authored with Fred Coldwell. I'd like to be able to send interested tool collectors to the book, but I believe it's out of print. I have been slowly working on a handier, shorter, and less cost-prohibitive guide.
Longer answer: Fairmount had been generally accepted as at the very least a potentially late war supplier based on one being found in a toolkit in reportedly NOS unmolested condition found in a surplus Willys MB with a late 1945 date of delivery. A few years ago I found a reference to a model number "893", without a mfgr's code, for the 11-inch auto wrench in a review of Willys Materials Surveys (prepared annually for the War Production Board) unearthed at NARA by a colleague, Bob Westerman (of CJ2A website fame). I was able correlate that model number to a 1941 Fairmount catalog, confirming Fairmount as a supplier as early as May 1943. This and other information was included in Volume 5, Chapter 40, of Lloyd White's "Evolution of the Willys MB Jeep" series of books, co-authored with Fred Coldwell. I'd like to be able to send interested tool collectors to the book, but I believe it's out of print. I have been slowly working on a handier, shorter, and less cost-prohibitive guide.
You military tool guys certainly chose a moving target. Demand outran supply for a few years and changes were made to adjust. Then the surplus market spread the evidence far and wide.
Thanks for the answer. I will have to check if mine meets the pictures. It would be nice if it had a possible pedigree.
Thanks for the answer. I will have to check if mine meets the pictures. It would be nice if it had a possible pedigree.
live311
Well-known member
Here's a Model E I scored at a local flea market the other day. I got it at a discount because it was seized, but I got it loose and cleaned it up. Not sure I'm happy with the finish, but it has pretty deep pitting and dents and would need a lot of sanding to smooth it out. I don't want to lose the original stamped markings.
Now I want more!
Now I want more!
Attachments
Oldtuleguy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2017
- Messages
- 10,461
That looks pretty good. A little pitting is no big deal on something that old
Agreed! Love the patina on that tool.
DWise
Well-known member
3baygarage
Well-known member
Oldtuleguy
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2017
- Messages
- 10,461
Wow that is cool
d42jeep
Well-known member
Here is an 11” Billings & Spencer auto wrench that I found in January. Unfortunately, it is not Jeep toolset correct.
-Don
-Don
Last edited:
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I picked up this pair of loom wrenches at my early bird flea market this morning.
These are not marked Billings & Spencer, but they are unmistakably B&S wrenches, and they have B&S model numbers to boot.
(B&S held out for the longest time with their own model numbering system, in rivalry with the J.H. Williams system, which was eventually adopted by most of the industry. By 1934, even B&S was listing the Williams system number as the "Trade No." in their catalog, along side their own number.)
They are marked "WHITIN" on the shank, in reference to the Whitin Machine Works, in South Northbridge (later Whitinsville), Massachusetts, which was at one time the largest textile mill and the largest textile mill town in the world.
AA has several examples of B&S textile wrenches, all branded B&S, and those that are contract wrenches for Whitin Machine Works are all marked "WHITIN MACHINE WORKS".
The heads on these wrenches are set on the shank at 22.5* angles (as opposed to the 15* of a more typical engineers' wrench, for example.)
The "1569" has 7/8" x 3/4" openings.
I can't find a "1570-S" in any Billings & Spencer catalog. A "1570" is 1" x 3/4". This "1570-S" measures as 1" x 13/16". Oddly, that configuration of opening sizes is a "1573" in 1934. This wrench may have been made and considered a "special" before then.
These are not marked Billings & Spencer, but they are unmistakably B&S wrenches, and they have B&S model numbers to boot.
(B&S held out for the longest time with their own model numbering system, in rivalry with the J.H. Williams system, which was eventually adopted by most of the industry. By 1934, even B&S was listing the Williams system number as the "Trade No." in their catalog, along side their own number.)
They are marked "WHITIN" on the shank, in reference to the Whitin Machine Works, in South Northbridge (later Whitinsville), Massachusetts, which was at one time the largest textile mill and the largest textile mill town in the world.
AA has several examples of B&S textile wrenches, all branded B&S, and those that are contract wrenches for Whitin Machine Works are all marked "WHITIN MACHINE WORKS".
The heads on these wrenches are set on the shank at 22.5* angles (as opposed to the 15* of a more typical engineers' wrench, for example.)
The "1569" has 7/8" x 3/4" openings.
I can't find a "1570-S" in any Billings & Spencer catalog. A "1570" is 1" x 3/4". This "1570-S" measures as 1" x 13/16". Oddly, that configuration of opening sizes is a "1573" in 1934. This wrench may have been made and considered a "special" before then.
Attachments
davethorik
Well-known member
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
If that has Hex Cap nut and bolt sizing instead of milled open end sizing on the flip side jaw faces, Dave, I have a No. 2025 from the same production era - although yours is in much better condition. (See Pics 1-4).
AA dates that logo to 1915-1926. I have no reason to argue with them, although I tend to just think of the logos as Earliest, Early, and Modern (left to right in Pic 5), because, while I like to pick up interesting B&S at the flea market when I see it, I don't collect it in earnest enough to cite the precise date ranges off the top of my head.
Attachments
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
As a WWII collector, I have literally put together at least a dozen or so complete 5-piece Jeep DOE wrench sets from the more popular and prominent mfgrs, such as Fairmount, Barcalo, Duro-Chrome, Vlchek, and Williams, and I have shown some of them in the early pages of the DOE thread. I have been working for many years on several sets from mfgrs that would be considered one-off or obscure or "motor pool" class by WWII Jeep guys (who are not necessarily tool guys). Believe it or not, that's where Herbrand, Armstrong, and Billings, and even my beloved Bonney would fit - although I am always trying to change that!
To that end, here is a 3-pc Billings set that I would dearly love to complete. These are M- series wrenches with the BillingS logo on the major jaw face, the ISN preceded by an "M" (or sometimes an "M-") on the opposite minor face, BILLINGS /B\ VITALLOY on the top side recessed panel shank, and DUO-FORGED on the flip side.
I have the M-1723, the M-1028-S, and the M-1731-A.
I NEED the M-1025 and the M-1027-C.
If anyone has or runs into these two wrenches, PLEASE let me know!
To that end, here is a 3-pc Billings set that I would dearly love to complete. These are M- series wrenches with the BillingS logo on the major jaw face, the ISN preceded by an "M" (or sometimes an "M-") on the opposite minor face, BILLINGS /B\ VITALLOY on the top side recessed panel shank, and DUO-FORGED on the flip side.
I have the M-1723, the M-1028-S, and the M-1731-A.
I NEED the M-1025 and the M-1027-C.
If anyone has or runs into these two wrenches, PLEASE let me know!
Attachments
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
I guess I should've made that a CLASSIFIED. My bad.
I'll just add this last bit as penance.
If there is a Rodney Dangerfield of vintage toolmakers, B&S would be in the running for the position. The name sounds like a gunmaker and conjures images of industrialists with walrus moustaches and stove pipe hats, and I think most collectors are familiar with the bike wrenches and the auto wrenches, but I wonder if most collectors know how much of an early giant they were, right up there with if not surpassing J.H. Williams and Armstrong in terms of the variety and volume of tools they made for themselves and on contract, and not just wrenches, but all kinds of machine tools and drop forgings. And on top of that, Billings & Spencer actually patented, made, and sold drop forges to other tool manufacturers! If that’s not tool-making cred, I don’t know what else is.
I'll just add this last bit as penance.
If there is a Rodney Dangerfield of vintage toolmakers, B&S would be in the running for the position. The name sounds like a gunmaker and conjures images of industrialists with walrus moustaches and stove pipe hats, and I think most collectors are familiar with the bike wrenches and the auto wrenches, but I wonder if most collectors know how much of an early giant they were, right up there with if not surpassing J.H. Williams and Armstrong in terms of the variety and volume of tools they made for themselves and on contract, and not just wrenches, but all kinds of machine tools and drop forgings. And on top of that, Billings & Spencer actually patented, made, and sold drop forges to other tool manufacturers! If that’s not tool-making cred, I don’t know what else is.
COL911
Well-known member
Provincial
Well-known member
Friday I found an interesting B&S DOE wrench at Habitat for Humanity. It has the following markings:
THE B&S CO (triangle B)
MFD. CT U.S.A.
1107
23
The small end measures 7/16" opening, and is marked: 3/16 NUT
The large end measures 1/2" opening, and is marked: 1/4 NUT 5/16 CAP 5/16 SAE
Alloy Artifacts lists the Billings 1107 as having a 13/32 opening. None of the examples they show have the "23" number under the 1107 number like my wrench. I suppose this opening could have been distorted or modified to the larger opening. AA says the NUT openings correspond to USS standard.
It is a view into the days before wrenches standardized on being described by their opening measurement.
THE B&S CO (triangle B)
MFD. CT U.S.A.
1107
23
The small end measures 7/16" opening, and is marked: 3/16 NUT
The large end measures 1/2" opening, and is marked: 1/4 NUT 5/16 CAP 5/16 SAE
Alloy Artifacts lists the Billings 1107 as having a 13/32 opening. None of the examples they show have the "23" number under the 1107 number like my wrench. I suppose this opening could have been distorted or modified to the larger opening. AA says the NUT openings correspond to USS standard.
It is a view into the days before wrenches standardized on being described by their opening measurement.
Attachments
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Provincial,
The "23" is the Trade (or Industry Standard) Number. In the early days, B&S stubbornly clung to its own size-based model numbering system ("1107"). By the early 30's they were listing the Trade Number along side their own numbers in the wrench charts in their catalogs. Eventually, they started putting them on wrenches, too, although it must have pained them to have to do so. That number was derived from their one and only rival from the early days, J.H. Williams. In the wrench charts in some old machinists' handbooks, the typical milled opening sizes and the nuts and bolts those opening sizes fit in various thread standards (i.e., U.S.S., S.A.E., American, Hexagon Cap) were sometimes accompanied by the Williams and B&S model numbers. That's how big of an impact they both had on the market in the earliest days.
A "23" (B&S "1107") wrench has 13/32" x 1/2" milled openings. The 13/32" opening fit a 3/16" U.S.S. nut or bolt. The 1/2" opening fit a 5/16" S.A.E. or Hex Cap nut or bolt. As marked on your wrench.
A "725" (B&S "1109") wrench has 7/16" x 1/2" milled openings. The 7/16" opening fit a 1/4" nut or bolt in all three standards.
I think your 13/32" end has been distorted by 1/32" to your measured 7/16" just as you suspected.
The "23" is the Trade (or Industry Standard) Number. In the early days, B&S stubbornly clung to its own size-based model numbering system ("1107"). By the early 30's they were listing the Trade Number along side their own numbers in the wrench charts in their catalogs. Eventually, they started putting them on wrenches, too, although it must have pained them to have to do so. That number was derived from their one and only rival from the early days, J.H. Williams. In the wrench charts in some old machinists' handbooks, the typical milled opening sizes and the nuts and bolts those opening sizes fit in various thread standards (i.e., U.S.S., S.A.E., American, Hexagon Cap) were sometimes accompanied by the Williams and B&S model numbers. That's how big of an impact they both had on the market in the earliest days.
A "23" (B&S "1107") wrench has 13/32" x 1/2" milled openings. The 13/32" opening fit a 3/16" U.S.S. nut or bolt. The 1/2" opening fit a 5/16" S.A.E. or Hex Cap nut or bolt. As marked on your wrench.
A "725" (B&S "1109") wrench has 7/16" x 1/2" milled openings. The 7/16" opening fit a 1/4" nut or bolt in all three standards.
I think your 13/32" end has been distorted by 1/32" to your measured 7/16" just as you suspected.
Last edited:
Here's an unusual early one I picked up at a local flea today. All kinds of cool stuff going on here. Primitive with no offset but with a beveled / rounded shank. Nice old logo with a different elevated "o" in the "Co". Stamped embossed "18" and reverse "S" on both sides. No size markings.
Attachments
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
These are the last couple boards I got from Rick, via GJ member UncleDave, on the toolboards thread, linked here. (Note that they have a Classifieds thread now, linked here.)
The No. 10 board is all lithographed metal over wood.
The No. 8 board is painted wood except for the round piece, which is lithographed metal.
These catalog excerpts are from the 1934 catalog. The full pages (pages 13 and 14) list all the wrenches by name and number.
Once I load them up in with as many wrenches as I have and find some places down in the Lugzsonian for these, I will post more photos. I'm kind of glad these are smaller than the Mossberg and Bonney boards!
The No. 10 board is all lithographed metal over wood.
The No. 8 board is painted wood except for the round piece, which is lithographed metal.
These catalog excerpts are from the 1934 catalog. The full pages (pages 13 and 14) list all the wrenches by name and number.
Once I load them up in with as many wrenches as I have and find some places down in the Lugzsonian for these, I will post more photos. I'm kind of glad these are smaller than the Mossberg and Bonney boards!
Attachments
Last edited:
3baygarage
Well-known member
Very nice. Good move for them from collector to collector.
four.cycle
Well-known member
pretty fabulous. 
made in the day when straight-grain fir and pine were abundant and cheap.
made in the day when straight-grain fir and pine were abundant and cheap.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Thanks, guys.pretty fabulous.
3bay: I know you have what is very likely the metal round piece on the No. 8 board. If you want to check, it's 9" diameter.
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
Interestingly, the B&S No. 10 board, with the lithographed metal front, was made by the H.D. Beach, Co. in Coshocton, Ohio, the same place where the Bonney No. 65 board, also lithographed metal, was made. The Bonney board can be seen here.
If you're not aware, Coshocton was the center for specialty lithographed iron and tin advertising pieces in the entire country.
From a history site:
"Henry Beach, editor of Coshocton’s other weekly newspaper, took no time to establish his own specialty advertising company just a year after Meek, in 1888...[ ]...In 1901 the Tuscarora and Standard Companies merged to become Meek and Beach. By 1902, it existed only in name, and Henry Beach formed a new company, H.D. Beach, as well as offshoots such as Beach Leather Co., Beach Enameling Co., and Beach Art Display."
Link for further reading here.
If you're not aware, Coshocton was the center for specialty lithographed iron and tin advertising pieces in the entire country.
From a history site:
"Henry Beach, editor of Coshocton’s other weekly newspaper, took no time to establish his own specialty advertising company just a year after Meek, in 1888...[ ]...In 1901 the Tuscarora and Standard Companies merged to become Meek and Beach. By 1902, it existed only in name, and Henry Beach formed a new company, H.D. Beach, as well as offshoots such as Beach Leather Co., Beach Enameling Co., and Beach Art Display."
Link for further reading here.
Attachments
Last edited:
Private Lugnutz
Well-known member
d42jeep
Well-known member
Here is a kind of cool Billings & Spencer adjustable spanner that I’ve had for a while.
-Don
-Don
Last edited: