Garage door seals - $$$ flying from your wallet?

Denwood · Feb 8, 2019

This is a repost of one of my thread posts, however I figure it's worth some discussion here in the heating/cooling area.

I learned something this week about the value of garage door seals. The space in question is at my commercial site, but the garage door there is typical (albeit) larger to most installations. Efficiency is a big deal in this super-insulated retrofit building which requires about 9000 sq/ft in total of heating and cooling. I've posted various threads reviewing the nine Ecobee stats, some automation stuff, and our quest to reduce electricity use. Turns out we were missing out on a major "leak" with regard to the overhead door seals.

There were single blade side and top seals on the door, but they were old, and had shrunk up a bit leaving gaps. The top of the door also was not sealing properly. Due to the height of the door, and outside temps of -15 to 20C, I asked the folks at Nusteel Door Systems to do the work.

The double blade commercial seals they used are about half the price of what you'd find at Home Depot..and much better quality. It's something to think about if you have a commercial overhead door specialist in your area.

The top and side seals they used are very similar in design to the CF-101 from Devanco

The door is 10 ft wide, and 14 ft high. It's a 16x32 space, with 20 ft ceilings. Because it is heated with radiant, and we're using Ecobee3 thermostats, I have good data to compare before and after. I chose similar days..about -18C, with higher winds, from 20-40km/h. The door is not opened very often in this weather..and if it was, you could see the temp drops on the graph.

A Google street view of the building taken in warmer weather so you can visualise the size of the door and its location:

This is the view inside. The area is separated from the rest of the building via insulated walls and doors, very similar to an attached garage. All heat is from in-floor radiant.

This data is from Ecobee showing runtime for the radiant floor system. Keep in mind that this area is only heated to 7C (about 44F) as it is only used as a loading and storage area.

On January 29th, the system ran a lot...maybe 11-12 hours over a 24 hr period. It was around -19C, and windy...20-40km/h North winds blowing against the door. The orange bars show the system runtime, but you can also view the outside temps, thermostat set temps (7C) and inside temps. Click on the images below to enlarge them.

Now with new seals, properly installed, a similar day with -19C temps and the same gusty 20-40 km/h winds against the door. The system ran for about 1.5 hours.

Is it time to replace your garage door seals?

RPH · Feb 9, 2019

Nice, but which one did you order? They have about 180 different types of seal and do they ship to the USA? I need seals and these look great. Charts look good too. One question on the lower one. Any reason for the slow temperature rise that occurred after mid nite to about 4 am. It indicates no heat applied.

Denwood · Feb 9, 2019

RPH, those are good questions.

Nusteel Door Systems supplied the seals, and they only carry the dual blade design in grey. They carry the extrusion in up to 14 ft I believe so the installation is one piece. This also makes shipping a challenge I bet. I'll check with them on brand. One thing I know for sure is that the material is designed to remain pliable at -30C (like the Davco).

Good question on the temperature ramp to 4am. Normally after heat is pumped in to the slab, you see a rise of .5 to 1C, about 2-3 hours after. The Ecobee is a learning stat, and is weather aware. It learns the recovery rate of each space, and behaves accordingly with weather taken into account. From 7 to 8 pm on January 8th (in the web interface you can zoom in for more precision) the system ran 3 times for approx 10 minutes each time. It does this in radiant mode I believe to mitigate the temperature bump after..and you will observe that from 8pm to 3am there was no bump in slab temperature. This suggests that their algorithm is working.

A slow temperature increase I see in the slab (often 1-2C) is usually correlated with ambient temperature outside increasing. Outside temp actually did increase from -19C to -18.5C at 2:30 AM on January 9th or so suggesting the bump in inside temps is correlated to that. Wind speed decrease likely correlated too. I was night skiing the same evening and winds were gusting from 20-40km/h, however they did calm down a bit overnight. Aside from the wind, I was in knee deep powder

Finally, I should mention that the Ecobee3 stat I have in the loading bay, also uses a wireless external temp sensor (each stat supports up to 256 remote wireless sensors) on the opposite outside wall. The nine Ecobee3 stats in the building average the indicated temps across all sensors (you can assign them to different modes if you want) but they do occasionally lose their remote sensor connections for a short time, something that may have happened to explain the 1C bump. The stat itself is on on an inside wall, so will often read 1C warmer than the remote sensor.

RPH · Feb 9, 2019

Thanks for the reply. I will contact them and see what can be done down south here. They might have a contact for us. But this is what I need on my doors.

Denwood · Feb 9, 2019

RPH, likely you’ll find commercial double blade seals locally. Home Depot sells similar seals but they are not as good quality...and twice the price.

dcg9381 · Feb 18, 2019

What did you end up paying?
The ones I used on my shop were from https://www.garagedoorweatherseal.com - I'm not indicating better/worse, just here's another vendor. They sell brushes, blade seals - all sorts of sizes.

RPH · Feb 18, 2019

I contacted Devanco by email and received a reply that night asking which product I was interested in. I did advise them of the product and unfortunately have not heard back since.
It’s been almost a week, don’t expect to hear anymore from them.

Denwood · Feb 18, 2019

The price I was quoted locally was $3 a foot. I still haven’t seen the bill! The estimate was $200 installed to do a 10x14 door. They figured about 45min to remove old and install the new. At -20C outside I was not arguing

Just to be clear..I did not purchase the seals on my door from Devanco...they just look very similar. I will call Nusteel here locally and see what the brand is.

Denwood · Feb 19, 2019

A bit of information on the seals:

Nusteel doors does ship the Aluminum Vinyl Double Blade Seals: https://www.nusteeldoorsystems.com/about

The seals are supplied by Richards-Wilcox which is based in Canada. I gave their engineer a call and may have some more information later today.

RPH · Feb 19, 2019

Thanks for the effort, I really appreciate it.

Denwood · Feb 19, 2019

RPH, no worries. The Richards-Wilcox folks called back (nice fellow Jakub!). They sell the seals as "Richards-Wilcox double blade seals". Nusteel here in town stocks the extrusions up to 14 feet I believe..and the seals in roll form as well..in case you had to replace one of the seals in an existing extrusion.

bullnerd · Feb 21, 2019

Thanks for the info Denwood.

I tried searching for the seals in the US without success.

If anyone can find them please post.

themiller · Feb 21, 2019

Fantastic addition to GJ. Love when data is used. I haven't moved to a smart thermostat yet but my next build will involve one for precisely this reason. 5-10 years down the road YOU might not notice the furnace running more, but a giant orange bar where there didn't use to be one will tell ya something is wrong!

Jazz1 · Feb 21, 2019

'Those are nice seals, better than what my door was supplied with 20 years ago.
I replaced the bottom seal on my 16' door last year. I unknowingly stretched rubber a bit and cut the ends. A year later the seal has "shrunk" back to its normal state leaving a 3" gap! Lesson learned. Quality door Hardware carries the various types of bottom seal, around $1 a foot

Denwood · Feb 21, 2019

Bull, perhaps the dual blade designs are more in demand here..where it's colder? I've definitely noticed that the new ones are quite pliable in very cold temps as well. If anyone does find them US side, please post. Your dollar is worth a pile in CAD right now. 1 US dollar gets you 1.32 in CAD!

Themiller, my first tip off on the problem was an alert from the Ecobee stat we have in the loading bay. It warns you if the system has been running longer than normal...in this case it basically told me it could not keep up. I've seen similar in another zone when a tenant propped the door open at -20C. I've a huge fan! The Ecobee stats combined with a VERA hub also manage night active cooling, AC shutoff if a window is opened etc. They are an important tool for me. I'm with you on the data. The internet is awash with anecdotal experts but every now and again you come across someone who's curiosity combined with a bit of scientific method truly makes a contribution to the collective

This fellows look at fluid film doing actual road testing is one of my favs to date:

Jazz, it appears shrinkage is a universal man issue

There were about 6" gaps at to the top corner..like leaving a small window cracked open.

RPH · Feb 22, 2019

My search for a US supplier has come up empty so far. But I’m not done looking as I can’t believe they are not available here in the US.

jonshonda · Feb 22, 2019

Please post pics of it installed on the door.

Denwood · Feb 23, 2019

Jons, here you go.

The door is about 14' high, 10' wide.

Outer blade:

Inner blade:

For those of you who like data, this is another look at similar days, before/after. The system ran for about an hour on Dec17 to add heat to the floor..and you can see the internal temperature dropping. Approximately 100 000 BTU was added.

Feb 23 (yesterday) you can see temps are pretty much staying at 11C, with zero runtime.

Bottlecapdigger · Feb 23, 2019

Ok, looks like you know about roll-up doors and have the same doors that I have on my shop. Question, how firm should the weather seal door trim be forced against the door when it get screwed to the door jam? The reason Im asking is my doors leak. The door guy says the trim is not sealing and says the trim should be tighter against the door. I wasn't born yesterday and have done this type of work before and screwed the trim on tight, any more and the door would wear the rubber off in no time. I think my doors leak because the rain gets between the panels where they sit on top of each other and the water wicks along till it gets to the end of the panel and then leaks behind the metal cap thats on the ends of the panels. Ive seen and taken pictures of water dripping out behind the door hinges at each end. I can post pictures later but have you ever seen this before? BCD

Denwood · Feb 23, 2019

Bottle,, my home shop has a roll up metal door, which does not seal nearly as well as the one pictured here at my commercial building.

Corrugated roll up doors definitely don't seal as well as multi-panel doors, and the seal cannot be too tight or the opener will likely detect this a blockage, and stop. With the multi panel doors (as above) you can install the seals a bit tighter as the door track pulls the door inward slightly (at least it should) as the door is raised. The vertical portion of the door track is installed so that it is closest to the wall at the base, and should be spaced out a bit more than this at the top. So on panel doors, I would adjust the seals inwards as much as you can. If you get too tight, the door will let you know as the opener will complain (or stop). Make sure that the door track is slightly closer to the wall at the base and gradually slopes away from the inside wall. Just a 1/4" or so on a 10ft door should be fine. The clips that hold the door track to the wall should have slots to allow this adjustment.

Roll up doors like the steel one on my home shop drop down in a straight track and therefore don't have this ability to seal a bit tighter when closed. If you're in a cold climate and efficiency is important..don't use a roll up door. They have far less R-value than a 2" insulated panel door..and don't seal well at all on the sides or top. I only use the shop heat at home when I'm in there. Otherwise it's off. There are only two upsides in my opinion of a roll up door:

1. It's in a compact roll at the top of the door, and can be open when a car is on the lift. That said, with some forethought on roof slope, you can use a sectional door where the door track hugs a vaulted ceiling to achieve the same result. We did this basically in the commercial shop. The door tracks were raised about 10ft to hug the 20ft ceiling. There is pallet racking in there so doing this tweak allows us to access the top level of the pallet racking (about 10ft up) with the door open. This makes sense as when unloading a truck, you may be firing pallets up there.

2. Solar gain from the black metal roll up door even on very cold days days is quite good. I have thermal images of the door on a 5F day where inside it was radiating heat at about 80F. Otherwise, you're losing a lot of heat at night! https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=281764

Bottlecapdigger · Feb 23, 2019

Sorry I should maybe call it a sectional door 12' height, 6 panels. I have the same door as the first couple of pics you posted. Here are some pictures so you can see why I think the water is tracking horizontals and running down inside the galvanized metal ends. I'm getting no support from the door supplier, and these doors are made locally here in Listowel ont. I should also add that the bottom seal against the floor will fill up with water, and pours out the ends when I open the door. BCD.

Bottlecapdigger · Feb 23, 2019

Here's another pic of water dripping off the door panels inside when its opened. I just about had it with these doors and would not recommend them. I cannot set anything infront of the door for fear of it getting wet soaking up water.

Denwood · Feb 24, 2019

What do your eaves look like? It looks like a pile of water is hitting that door!

Bottlecapdigger · Feb 24, 2019

It's on the gable end facing west. 16" overhang on the roof. BCD.

Denwood · Feb 24, 2019

Mine are manufactured in a tongue and groove type arrangement..so zero water can come through unless it flows uphill past the joint.

My guess is that your door panels are flat on the edges where they meet? Make sure if there is a lap/tongue and groove type joint that your panels were not installed upside down...otherwise they will collect water! If you do indeed have a flat joint, there are plastic V seals (very thin) that are made for this application.

Bottlecapdigger · Feb 24, 2019

I'm pretty sure they have a step or a "ship lap" with a rubber seal. the holes where pre-drilled for the hinges so they can't be backwards. My guess the rubber seal is not consistent or possibly damaged along the seam. Once the weather warms up I'm going to open the door and inspect the rubber seal closely. I guess my original question would be have you ever seen a door leak like this before? I would have done it today but the wind (down here, haha) today here is up to 120km/hr,yes! BCD thanks for replying to my issues here

Wook660 · Feb 24, 2019

I've been searching without luck for seals just like these. I'm in Connecticut. I don't understand why they aren't easier to come by but if somebody happens for find out where to get these please let us know.

jonshonda · Feb 26, 2019

Thanks for the pics Denwood. That is really nice door seal. Far better then anything at the local hardware store.

Jazz1 · Feb 26, 2019

Bottlecapdigger said:
I'm pretty sure they have a step or a "ship lap" with a rubber seal. the holes where pre-drilled for the hinges so they can't be backwards. My guess the rubber seal is not consistent or possibly damaged along the seam. Once the weather warms up I'm going to open the door and inspect the rubber seal closely. I guess my original question would be have you ever seen a door leak like this before? I would have done it today but the wind (down here, haha) today here is up to 120km/hr,yes! BCD thanks for replying to my issues here

Just because the holes were pre-drilled does not mean it was done correctly. That's really odd that your bottom seal fills with water. Seems you should be able to rectify the problem without having to buy a new door.
Good Luck!
I had to move seal today. Bare wood shows the distance. I know I adjusted it last year. Inside track is okay. ??

bullnerd · Feb 26, 2019

jonshonda said:
Thanks for the pics Denwood. That is really nice door seal. Far better then anything at the local hardware store.

Yeah, they look really nice.

wed4life · Feb 27, 2019

Found Richards Wilcox dealer locator.

https://www.rwdoors.com/dealers/

Denwood · Feb 27, 2019

Bottle, definitely check the orientation and seals.

Wook, try that dealer locator Wed4 just posted.

Jons, yes these seals are miles better than the HD stuff and 1/2 the price too.

Jazz, depending on how you attached the seals, it may actually be easier to adjust the door track vs mess with the seals. Not quicker, but perhaps more effective to get that inward slant just right...

Wed4, thanks for posting that. I had no idea dual blade commercial seals would be so hard to find. The Richards Wilcox product used on my door is definitely as good as i’ve seen to date. I like that they also stock the vinyl seal separate from the extrusion.

We just had another winter storm with temps at -26C and winds gusting up to 80 km/h. The radiant ran for one hour from 1 to 2 am, 36 hours ago and has not run since as we’re up to a balmy -15C. Ha. I’m still shocked by the drop in heat requirements from a seal replacement..

bullnerd · Feb 27, 2019

Thanks Wed4life.

philbar715 · Feb 27, 2019

I just wanted to pop in and say nice work! Since you have an EcoBee and like looking at the data, there is a third party website that takes your EcoBee data and plots it in more useful and nicer looking graphs. You do have to allow the website to get the data from your ecobee, so if you arent comfortable with that then this wont do much for you.

Its called beestat.io

its neat because they give you an aggregate runtime vs outdoor temp that is much more functional than the default ecobee chart. They also give you a temp profile, that shows how quickly your place loses or gains heat vs outdoor temp.

Toomanytools? · Feb 27, 2019

Denwood, That seems to be a substantial run time difference by installing those seals, should translate into some savings for your shop good deal.
I have 12'x14' sectional doors with the cheap Home Depot type seal, I wasn't there when they installed the seal or I would have asked for something better. So I'm in the search for something similar.

Denwood · Feb 27, 2019

Bull, given the difference apparently in simple air sealing..they're well worth the expense

Philbar, thanks for the link! This look from beestat.io tells the story much better over the last few months. The work was done on Feb 5th or so. My estimates of heat total run time before the work was done were very conservative...that's a lot of BTUs wasted :-(

Toomany, normally I would call foul if someone posted similar, but the run time graphs don't lie..and nothing has changed at the building otherwise. Look after Feb 5 in this graph (bottom row) vs the temps outside. On January 30th, a cold windy day, (before tuning up the door) the system ran for 15h and 43min. Yikes.

There was a lot of air leaking around that door...

Click on the image for a full res look:

Poking around the Beestat data, it looks like about an 80% drop in heating load, likely more on a windy day. Crazy. Thanks again to Philbar as Beestat's data parsing is much better than Ecobee's.

philbar715 · Feb 27, 2019

Denwood said:
Bull, given the difference apparently in simple air sealing..they're well worth the expense

Philbar, thanks for the link! This look from beestat.io tells the story much better over the last few months. The work was done on Feb 5th or so. My estimates of heat total run time before the work was done were very conservative...that's a lot of BTUs wasted :-(

Toomany, normally I would call foul if someone posted similar, but the run time graphs don't lie..and nothing has changed at the building otherwise. Look after Feb 5 in this graph (bottom row) vs the temps outside. On January 30th, a cold windy day, (before tuning up the door) the system ran for 15h and 43min. Yikes.

There was a lot of air leaking around that door...

Click on the image for a full res look:

Poking around the Beestat data, it looks like about an 80% drop in heating load, likely more on a windy day. Crazy. Thanks again to Philbar as Beestat's data parsing is much better than Ecobee's.

Wow! Thats a huge reduction just by upgrading your garage door seal! When I insulate my garage I'll keep the seal you used in mind because im sure mine is the single seal type. Glad beestat is working for you! I wish Ecobee would give you those kinds of graphs out of the box, or atleast improve on the software/user interface a little more.

I love "smart" things, mostly just for the data that they collect. Knowledge is power.

bullnerd · Feb 27, 2019

Who here thinks Dennis should buy a bulk of these seals and hand deliver them to those of us in the US....say I....I! lol!

GoodStuff · Feb 27, 2019

How do I get this kind of program set up for my system?

Sent from my iPhone using The Garage Journal mobile app

Denwood · Feb 27, 2019

Bull, we're only an hour from the border, so that is not impossible! That said, if you order from the guys here in town at NuSteel Overhead Doors, you're saving about 30% just on exchange.

Good, just install an Ecobee stat. The web monitoring is free..you just need to set up a login at Ecobee with your stat. We're using nine Ecobee3 stats (four zones of radiant and five air handlers), but you can do exactly the same with an Ecobee3 lite..about $175. That's all you need for a single zone setup. The Ecobee stats are weather "aware" so learn your building's recovery behaviour in various conditions and will tailor run times for radiant as well as forced air etc. You can also add remote temp/occupancy sensors so I have one on the far wall (coldest North wall) and the stat averages it's own temp with the external sensor.

We did a concrete over-pour of 2" over an existing slab insulated with 2" of insulation. So while the thermal storage is lower, I also use more aggressive set backs as the slab recovers fairly quickly. You learn a lot when you can look at data history.

Garage door seals - $$$ flying from your wallet?

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