"Turning the Screws" on a Long C pipe wrench OEM ID

Private Lugnutz · Mar 21, 2019

I am starting this thread to offload Outlaw's "Long C" thread, where some of us have been embroiled in a discussion about the OEM for Craftsman "Long C" era pipe wrenches.

The topic here is specifically the Ridge pattern "Long C" pipe wrenches, and specifically NOT the Stillson pattern. They may be the same OEM, and probably are, but that is NOT a concern of this thread.

Here is a catalog image of the pipe wrenches in question.

And here are some fine examples in a set owned by JoCoSawdust.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 21, 2019

If you're familiar with pipe wrenches, the Long C pipe wrenches in question resemble the wrenches attributed to Ridge Tool Company (first patented in 1925, with subsequent defining patents in 1929, 1932, 1933, and 1940), but also resembling Erie Tool Works and Nye Tool and Machine.

Unfortunately, unlike Ridge, no patents can be found for Erie or Nye pipe wrenches.

Major features of this style pipe wrench are the adjusting nut located behind the housing (not inside it, as with Stillson) and the floating jaw stabilized by two bosses. The only obvious external distinctions between Ridge, Erie, Nye and Craftsman Long C era pipe wrenches are the size and shape of a bar or plate typically emanating from the pin for detachable jaw inserts in the lower static jaw and stretching up the housing (this is tangential, but Ridge actually trademarked the shape of theirs in 1938), and perhaps some slight differences in the size and shape of the bosses behind the adjusting nut.

The 1964 entry in a timeline on the Lakeside Forge (was/subsumed Erie Tool Works) website states that ETW supplied pipe wrenches to Sears for 30 years, which would include the Craftsman Long C era, and Erie pipe wrenches do resemble Craftsman Long C pipe wrenches, except for the shape of the swash plate discussed above.

It has been postulated elsewhere (old GG site, reportedly) that Nye Tool and Machine was the OEM. And this postulation has a lot of merit, since the swash plate on Craftsman "Long C" pipe wrenches and Nye pipe wrenches of this era are identical.

I would like to try to confirm that with examinations of the guides that are inserted into the channel of the housing to keep the floating jaw aligned and stable. These steel spring clips are not all the same across mfgrs.

Ridge patented several different designs. See Pics 1, 2, & 3 for the 1929 patent design, found in pre-war and wartime wrenches (i.e., the Long C era). It is a C-shaped band with three forked tongues on the bottom of the band and a coil-spring hidden in a recess at the top of the hump putting pressure on the band.

Erie had a different design. See Pics 4, 5 & 6. It is a plain oblong U-shaped clip that gets seated on top of a coil-spring in a recess at the bottom.

What we need here on this thread are photos just like these from Craftsman "Long C" and Nye pipe wrenches. Please, ONLY Craftsman Long C and ONLY Nye pipe wrenches that look like Craftsman Long C.

(If you have a Craftsman or Nye pipe wrench and you're not sure of the age, note that the adjusting nut on the Long C era Craftsman and Nye pipe wrenches is FULLY KNURLED and the end or back of the floating jaw is SQUARE. If the adjusting nut has a groove in the middle, two bands of knurling, etc, it is postwar. If the end of the floating jaw is rounded, it is postwar. These are industry-wide postwar features.)

twertsy · Mar 21, 2019

Re: "Turning the Screws" on a Long C pipe wrench OEM ID

Here's mine Greg, 8" unsure of era. This was identified as Nye produced.

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Private Lugnutz · Mar 21, 2019

Thanks, Todd. Nice wrench!

First entry and we already have something significant to discuss!

I will defer to Don, who has one he can compare it to, and it would probably help in the meantime if you snap a shot of the little spring steel tongue separately, but that resembles an Erie design floating jaw stabilizer to me. Flat oblong piece seated on top of large coil spring.

twertsy · Mar 21, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
Thanks, Todd. Nice wrench!

First entry and we already have something significant to discuss!

I will defer to Don, who has one he can compare it to, and it would probably help in the meantime if you snap a shot of the little spring steel tongue separately, but that resembles an Erie design floating jaw stabilizer to me. Flat oblong piece seated on top of large coil spring.

Nope, it's actually U shaped with the tongues dropping into notches on either side of the spring

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Private Lugnutz · Mar 21, 2019

Perfect. Now we just need someone to come through with a Nye pipe wrench with a channel guide that is U shaped with the tongues dropping into notches on either side of the spring!

twertsy · Mar 21, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
Perfect. Now we just need someone to come through with a Nye pipe wrench with a channel guide that is U shaped with the tongues dropping into notches on either side of the spring!

I checked and didn't find any Nye in my shop.

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Outlawmws · Mar 21, 2019

Sub'd

d42jeep · Mar 21, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
Thanks, Todd. Nice wrench!

First entry and we already have something significant to discuss!

I will defer to Don, who has one he can compare it to, and it would probably help in the meantime if you snap a shot of the little spring steel tongue separately, but that resembles an Erie design floating jaw stabilizer to me. Flat oblong piece seated on top of large coil spring.

Here are a few more pictures of the Erie spring clip.
-Don

twertsy · Mar 22, 2019

d42jeep said:
Here are a few more pictures of the Erie spring clip.
-Don

That is very similar to mine, except the edges on the "tongues" of my clip are squared rather than rounded.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 22, 2019

I didn't see that Don's was U-shaped from the earlier photos. Interesting. Erie back in the "maybe" category.

We really need some Nyes.

LesserSon · Mar 23, 2019

Here is a 10” long-C (on the decal) I bought last year and a 10” Erie Pipemaster I bought today for this discussion. Except for the forged-in words and the different shape of the machined static jaw reinforcement, the bodies look nearly identical to me. The adjustment nut is different (Cman has finer knurl), but has identcal threads.
Now...the long-C’s been apart before, and I may have lost the pressure plate at that time, or maybe it was lost before it came to me, or I actually lost the one from the Erie today - I need to be more careful...but I think the Cman is the one that’s lost.
Anyway...the recess for the spring is in opposite sides in these two wrenches: jaw side in the Erie, bulge side in the Craftsman.
Update: picked up a C’man 8” to confirm construction. Seems a match for the 10” I posted here, EXCEPT, the spring recess is on the jaw side!

Private Lugnutz · Mar 23, 2019

Thanks for the contribution and analysis, LS.

rustyzman · Mar 24, 2019

I thought I might have something that would help but, I just checked and my only NYE wrench is an offset unit. Solid knurl nut. I removed the jaw and sadly the tension spring and plate are gone. I will keep my eyes out when I am out and about and see if I can find any more NYE wrenches. I see a fair bit of NYE here, but mostly threading dies and pipe reamers. Locally here, of course, they were pretty popular back in the day.

Still have my Great Grandfathers NYE stand and my buddies Granfather's NPS threading die set. They made very nice tools.

I just sold my last couple Craftsman's...

Outlawmws · Mar 24, 2019

I just checked my inventory - not a single Nye... Sorry, can't help there.

evacovsky · Mar 25, 2019

Some pics for analysis... Heritage logo, solid knurled nut, 14" not sure if it resembles NYE or Erie. Hope this helps!

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Private Lugnutz · Mar 25, 2019

evacovsky said:
...not sure if it resembles NYE or Erie. Hope this helps!

It does. Thanks. The angular boss or plate that runs parallel to the static jaw, with the detachable jaw insert pin through it, resembles Nye. But I think this is the sole feature that others have used to identify Nye as the maker, and Nye may not have been their own OEM, let alone Craftsman's. Hence this thread. And that spring-loaded guide from the channel in your Craftsman looks like Don's Erie, I think, from here. Don? Todd? Your thoughts?

d42jeep · Mar 25, 2019

Without a visual of a Nye, it’s hard to say for sure, but it looks pretty much like Craftsman was sourcing their pipe wrenches from Erie. I wonder how come the Nye wrenches are so few and far between?
-Don

Private Lugnutz · Mar 25, 2019

Agreed. (Fighting myself really hard to not claim a pre-mature "I told you so!" here.

) We really need some Nye pipe wrenches! I am getting ready to contact some eBay sellers just ask them to disassemble one to settle a vexing all-important GJ research question! :lol:

Shiftless · Mar 26, 2019

I have a NYE pipewrench but it is clearly post war so that won’t help your detective work. But at the risk of sidetracking you guys just a bit, I’ll post a pic of mine just for the cool logo. Here is mine in its as found condition.

d42jeep · Mar 26, 2019

Shiftless said:
I have a NYE pipewrench but it is clearly post war so that won’t help your detective work. But at the risk of sidetracking you guys just a bit, I’ll post a pic of mine just for the cool logo. Here is mine in its as found condition.

The knurled nut and jaw shape on your NYE looks suspiciously similar to the nut and jaw on my later Erie wrench. Is there a chance that you can pull yours apart and show what was used to put pressure on the moving jaw?
-Don

d42jeep · Mar 26, 2019

GJ member Shiftless stopped by this afternoon and we double teamed his nice NYE postwar looking pipe wrench. Initially, after disassembly, I thought that the clip was the same as the Ridgid pipe wrenches but I was wrong. The clip is the same as Ridgid on the fixed jaw side of the opening but there is a coil spring in a recess on the opposite side of the clip exerting pressure on the top of the moving jaw. In my more modern Erie there is no coil spring but rather a flexible spring clip pushing on the fixed jaw side of the moveable jaw. The movable jaws and knurled nuts on both wrenches looked to us like they came out of the same factory. Shiftless is the hand model in the photos. Verdict? Inconclusive.
-Don

Private Lugnutz · Mar 26, 2019

Tool buddies! :beer:

d42jeep said:
The clip is the same as Ridgid on the fixed jaw side of the opening but there is a coil spring in a recess on the opposite side of the clip exerting pressure on the top of the moving jaw.

That sounds like the Ridge stabilizer, Don. Just to make sure, see the chart I created below to summarize Ridge stabilizer patents. The 1929 design is the mechanism that is inside all of the wartime RIDGID pipe wrenches, and I thought it was the clip in your prewar RIDGID pipe wrench as well. If not, please clarify. It is C-shaped. The bottom of the C is where the three split tongues come off longitudinally to the channel, that the bottom of the floating jaw rides on. The side of the C squeezes up against the wall of the channel. And in a recess in the hump or top of the housing there is a coil-spring applying pressure against the top of the C, and therefore, the top of the floating jaw. In essence, the floating jaw is being squeezed by two pressure points, the bent spring steel tongues underneath, and the spring-loaded part of the clip up top.

Shiftless · Mar 26, 2019

Lugz:
Your description sounds just like my NYE.
Here are Don’s pics which I have marked up.
Expand to read my notes in yellow.
.
.
.

d42jeep · Mar 27, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
Tool buddies!

That sounds like the Ridge stabilizer, Don. Just to make sure, see the chart I created below to summarize Ridge stabilizer patents. The 1929 design is the mechanism that is inside all of the wartime RIDGID pipe wrenches, and I thought it was the clip in your prewar RIDGID pipe wrench as well. If not, please clarify. It is C-shaped. The bottom of the C is where the three split tongues come off longitudinally to the channel, that the bottom of the floating jaw rides on. The side of the C squeezes up against the wall of the channel. And in a recess in the hump or top of the housing there is a coil-spring applying pressure against the top of the C, and therefore, the top of the floating jaw. In essence, the floating jaw is being squeezed by two pressure points, the bent spring steel tongues underneath, and the spring-loaded part of the clip up top.

Whenever I clean up a Ridgid pipe wrench, I always try not to mess with the clips if they are in place. I didn’t realize that there was a hidden coil spring in the top of the C. I’ll have to tear one apart and check it out. I always was under the impression that the springiness of the clip itself provided the pressure on the jaw. Even if the NYE example has the Ridgid style clip, it’s odd that the nut and moving jaw so closely resemble the Erie. It still seems that the preponderance of the evidence points to Erie being the OE for the long C Craftsman rather than NYE. We need some early NYE wrenches to make sure.
-Don
Edit...Lugz, I don’t think the link is working.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 27, 2019

Shiftless said:
Lugz:
Your description sounds just like my NYE.

Yes, that's the Ridge patent. If you click here, I posted photos of one of mine on the Long C thread, where this discussion started. If you look at the chart above, you can see the coil-spring in the patent drawing, inside the hump of the housing, to the left of the drawing of the actual clip, which is oriented in the patent drawing relative to the wrench. And you can see that they patenting three other stabilizing clip designs between 1932 and 1940, but it's not clear that they ever implemented any of them. Then, in 1954, they re-patented the 1929 design. They even used the same drawing of the clip from the 1929 patent in their 1954 patent application. So it's not at all unusual to see it in a postwar pipe wrench. I suspect it is in all 1950's Ridge pipe wrenches as well.

Even though your Nye wrench is postwar, I think this is a huge data point. What it means for the Craftsman Long C era, we can't yet be sure, but it clearly establishes a connection between Nye and Ridge. I have been saying from the very beginning that at the big picture level ALL of these pipe wrenches (Erie, Nye, and Craftsman) are Ridge pattern pipe wrenches, in the same way we identify Stillson pattern pipe wrenches regardless of the OEM, and those are the only two patterns there are. It doesn't mean Ridge was making them all, but, like Stillson, there may be fees or licensing or something involved.

d42jeep said:
I didn’t realize that there was a hidden coil spring in the top of the C.

You must have missed my description of it in post #812 from the Long C thread when I first launched this study. And I posted this patents chart in the same post.

From that thread and post...

Private Lugnutz said:
Basically, it's a spring steel strap wrapping around three walls of the channel. There is a hidden coil-spring in a recess inside the top of the hump putting pressure on it and those three tongues on the bottom.

Sorry I didn't emphasize the spring more.

d42jeep said:
Even if the NYE example has the Ridgid style clip, it’s odd that the nut and moving jaw so closely resemble the Erie.

I’m not suggesting that Ridge is the OEM for Nye and Erie. But again, I do think there is a connection between Ridge, Erie, Nye and Craftsman. Irrespective of Nye and Craftsman, you know I’ve been postulating a connection between Ridge and Erie for years, going way back to discussions on G503.com. After studying Ridge patents at the doctoral level (HAHA!) for so long, I just don’t see how it’s possible there couldn’t be. Erie, Nye and Craftsman pipe wrenches are Ridge pattern pipe wrenches. There is nothing that distinguishes them other than cosmetic differences (the swash plate, perhaps the size of the bosses behind the adjusting nut, etc). These are not patentable differences.

d42jeep said:
It still seems that the preponderance of the evidence points to Erie being the OE for the long C Craftsman rather than NYE. We need some early NYE wrenches to make sure.

Agreed. As I postulated, Erie may have been the OEM for Nye. And maybe they were also making them for Sears & Roebuck with the Nye-style swash plate. (And maybe Ridge was getting fees for all of those pipe wrenches.)

d42jeep said:
Lugz, I don’t think the link is working.

What link?

twertsy · Mar 27, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
Yes, that's the Ridge patent. If you click here, I posted photos of one of mine on the Long C thread, where this discussion started. If you look at the chart above, you can see the coil-spring in the patent drawing, inside the hump of the housing, to the left of the drawing of the actual clip, which is oriented in the patent drawing relative to the wrench. And you can see that they patenting three other stabilizing clip designs between 1932 and 1940, but it's not clear that they ever implemented any of them. Then, in 1954, they re-patented the 1929 design. They even used the same drawing of the clip from the 1929 patent in their 1954 patent application. So it's not at all unusual to see it in a postwar pipe wrench. I suspect it is in all 1950's Ridge pipe wrenches as well.

Even though your Nye wrench is postwar, I think this is a huge data point. What it means for the Craftsman Long C era, we can't yet be sure, but it clearly establishes a connection between Nye and Ridge. I have been saying from the very beginning that at the big picture level ALL of these pipe wrenches (Erie, Nye, and Craftsman) are Ridge pattern pipe wrenches, in the same way we identify Stillson pattern pipe wrenches regardless of the OEM, and those are the only two patterns there are. It doesn't mean Ridge was making them all, but, like Stillson, there may be fees or licensing or something involved.

You must have missed my description of it in post #812 from the Long C thread when I first launched this study. And I posted this patents chart in the same post.

From that thread and post...

Sorry I didn't emphasize the spring more.

I’m not suggesting that Ridge is the OEM for Nye and Erie. But again, I do think there is a connection between Ridge, Erie, Nye and Craftsman. Irrespective of Nye and Craftsman, you know I’ve been postulating a connection between Ridge and Erie for years, going way back to discussions on G503.com. After studying Ridge patents at the doctoral level (HAHA!) for so long, I just don’t see how it’s possible there couldn’t be. Erie, Nye and Craftsman pipe wrenches are Ridge pattern pipe wrenches. There is nothing that distinguishes them other than cosmetic differences (the swash plate, perhaps the size of the bosses behind the adjusting nut, etc). These are not patentable differences.

Agreed. As I postulated, Erie may have been the OEM for Nye. And maybe they were also making them for Sears & Roebuck with the Nye-style swash plate. (And maybe Ridge was getting fees for all of those pipe wrenches.)

What link?

The link to the document you posted above. I get an X in a box as well.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 27, 2019

I must be going crazy. I have not posted any documents or links.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 27, 2019

Never mind, I see what's happening.

Guys - that chart is not a document, that is an image. I created that. I took excerpts of the pertinent patents, arranged them in chronological order, and labeled them with the patent info in a PowerPoint file, then saved it as a .jpeg. That chart summarizes the pertinent drawings and info from six USPTO patents on one page. If you want to read the actual patents, you can go to USPTO, but at least you know which ones to look for now. (Tangentially, this is how I created the similar timeline of patents chart on my "dating Ridge pipe wrenches" thread, and this is how I create all my tool research references. PowerPoint, then JPEG. I even paste Excel tables into PowerPoint, then save as JPEG.)

LesserSon · Mar 27, 2019

Private Lugnutz said:
Never mind, I see what's happening.

That is the problem. WYSI not WIGing. Some/all of the rest of us can’t see it. Not even the image. Something in the site protocol or in the html is just rendering a blank square, clicking it leads to “invalid link” message.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 27, 2019

Oh! ****. That's different. Hmm. Not sure why. It's just a jpeg and it's the third time I have posted it.

LesserSon · Mar 27, 2019

Take a look at the coding by editing post 23. Could be you hit the link button instead of the image button, which would save code that tries to link to your hard drive.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 27, 2019

I think I fixed it. Do you see it now?

LesserSon · Mar 27, 2019

Yes! Nice chart.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 27, 2019

Thanks for the help. We were having a Cool Hand Luke moment! Lol

LesserSon · Mar 27, 2019

Geez! Do you think the purpose of these patented improvements is just idiot-proofing to prevent careless loss of the components (like I did)? Seems they all essentially perform the same function.

Private Lugnutz · Mar 27, 2019

Ridge was obsessed with stabilizing the dynamic jaw because that was the chief criticism against them from the Stillson lobby. I'm not showing it on this chart, which is focused on the parts of the patent drawings illustrating the stabilizer clips, but the 1929 patent is what added the bosses behind the adjusting nut, and their purpose was also stabilization of the floating jaw.

Those bosses - and then the angular raised plate running parallel to the static jaw, with the pin for the detachable jaw inserts (shown in the 1940 patent drawing, not visible on this chart) - are what give RIDGID pipe wrenches their classic signature look. Early RIDGID pipe wrenches had no bosses, no plate, then the bosses and a trapezoidal plate. As I have said elsewhere, they actually TM'ed the shape of that plate in 1938, and I think it stands to reason that's why we see so many other shapes for that plate on so many other Ridge pattern pipe wrenches branded Erie, Nye, and Craftsman.

The 1929 patent added the three split tongues to the 1925 clip. The 1925 patent already had the clip and the hidden coil-spring. I don't know if any of the other stabilizing clip designs were ever implemented. All wartime Ridge pipe wrenches have the 1929 design stabilizing clip. And Don has a prewar Ridge with the same stabilizing clip.

If you've never seen Ridge Pipe Wrench Dating thread (started out as a Survey thread), click here and read post #1.

Shiftless · Mar 27, 2019

Thanks fellows. I have a new found respect for the details of the inner workings of my various pipe wrenches. I rarely use any of them but I will now look upon them in a new light.

I’m glad I could help with my NYE wrench.

twertsy · Mar 27, 2019

Should we also be considering Reed?

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d42jeep · Mar 27, 2019

In order to confirm that Shiftless’ NYE had the same clip as early Ridgid pipe wrenches I did a few more comparisons among my Ridgid wrenches. My conclusion is that the NYE clip and the Ridgid clips are identical. I also did a test to find out if the clips in the patent pending Ridgid wrenches were interchangeable with the newer pre ‘50 wrenches with the patent numbers. With some difficulty, I pulled a clip out of a 10” ‘40s wrench and installed it in my early 10” wrench that was totally missing the clip and spring and it fit.
-Don

"Turning the Screws" on a Long C pipe wrench OEM ID

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