Whitman and Barnes Manufacturing Company (W&B diamond) tool pictures

Shelbylex · Jun 13, 2020

Good evening

I want to start a separate thread for Whitman and Barnes Manufacturing Company pictures.

Woody 73 and Twertsy started created a good history review with references
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=334517

...I discovered it among the rusty wrenches which were given to me to restore or recycle. One side says 3/8 C8 Please decipher the size if you know what it means as sizes are different on both sides.

Shelbylex · Jun 13, 2020

Other references in GJ (just to put them together to start)
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25423
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=361304
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416411
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348891&page=148 post2948
https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=348891&page=148 post 2334

d42jeep · Jun 14, 2020

The Whitman and Barnes tools I have are three wood handled monkey wrenches and a drill index. I’m pretty sure I’ve posted them before but here they are again.
-Don

Private Lugnutz · Oct 7, 2021

I pulled this 3/8" No. 252 square box wrench/tool post wrench out of the bottom of an old toolbox this morning at the flea.

wrenchguy · Oct 7, 2021

Somehow I missed this thread looking in the VT stickie a few weeks back.
Here you go. I believe its connected to the Pennsylvania RR.
EDIT,
PS = PITTSBURG & SHAWMUT RAILROAD according to "railroad reporting marks" online data base.

Private Lugnutz · Oct 7, 2021

wrenchguy said:
Somehow I missed this thread looking in the VT stickie a few weeks back

I just added it.

four.cycle · Oct 8, 2021

Whitman & Barnes Mfg. Co., Akron, OH / patent 273170 Feb 27 1883 F.H. Seymour / http://alloy-artifacts.org/other-makers-p3.html#whitman / http://toolarchives.com/index.php/node/330 /

four.cycle · Oct 8, 2021

Whitman & Barnes

four.cycle · Oct 8, 2021

Whitman & Barnes

four.cycle · Oct 8, 2021

Whitman & Barnes

see also Woody's previous thread https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/threads/whitman-barnes-mfg-co-or-the-w-b.334517/

d42jeep · Oct 8, 2021

I seem to have failed to add my cast drill index to this thread.
-Don

d42jeep · Oct 18, 2021

Here is a little wrench that was a throw in with an eBay purchase. If it’s been modified it was a good job.
-Don

Private Lugnutz · Oct 18, 2021

What a coincidence. I thought this find from yesterday's flea was going to be a "< JAR >" (J.A. Roebling) logo "Alligator", completing a sort of trifecta for me (three generations of them were made by the American Saw Company, then Roebling marked Roebling, and finally Roebling marked JAR), but it's a Whitman & Barnes knockoff. Unable to call them an "Alligator" (TM'd by Amercian Saw/Roebling), they called them "BULLDOG" wrenches.

kwigly · Jul 29, 2023

8 inch W&B "S" wrench found today. This one is from their Canadian works in St Catharines

Ayrhead · Feb 18, 2024

I came across this W&B Twin Alligator wrench. According to the catalog picture in this post, it looks to be 1902

Ayrhead · Mar 5, 2024

Ayrhead said:
I came across this W&B Twin Alligator wrench. According to the catalog picture in this post, it looks to be 1902

I have a similar one but this is a McKinnon Industries one, made in Canada

Ayrhead · Mar 5, 2024

I came across this smaller Alligator Wrench from W&B

Beerhippie · Jun 9, 2024

Found these today:

Just out of the electrolysis vat, still need work.

One more and I have a straight!

I guess I'll just have to up my game, as I don't think I can break a bolt big enough to drill with a 1 1/16" bit for the #9!

Those big boys will come in handy if I ever bust a piece of pipe off in a fitting again....

Beerhippie · Jun 10, 2024

The extractors cleaned up nicely:

Especially considering what they looked like as found (lower left):

I've never seen extractors with squared-off flutes before--but I'm not sure I've seen 1 1/2" extractors before.

AntiqueBen · Jun 17, 2024

I found a Whitman & Barnes Auto wrench today. I've never seen a W&B auto wrench before. It looks more like a monkey wrench with it's screw operation rather than the typical looking auto wrench. It's marked W&B on one side of the handle & "AUTO" on the other side. It does have a thin profile like an auto wrench should. Thought I would grab it since it's a W&B tool I've never seen. Anyone know much about these or know a timeline?

AntiqueBen · Jun 17, 2024

I found this 1906 Iron Age ad on the Whitman & Barnes Auto Wrench. Not sure when it first came out, but it's a little older than I anticipated. Now I'm curious to know who produced the first "Auto Wrench" specifically designed for the auto industry?

four.cycle · Jun 18, 2024

@AntiqueBen -
I went through my "Whitman & Barnes" folder and I see nothing even close to that "Auto Wrench".
As to was first, I think you'll find "AUTO" on a variety of early adjustable "monkey" type wrenches.
Moore Drop Forging made them early on.. mine isn't marked "AUTO".

AntiqueBen · Jun 18, 2024

four.cycle said:
@AntiqueBen -
I went through my "Whitman & Barnes" folder and I see nothing even close to that "Auto Wrench".
As to was first, I think you'll find "AUTO" on a variety of early adjustable "monkey" type wrenches.
Moore Drop Forging made them early on.. mine isn't marked "AUTO".

That's interesting you couldn't find anything on my W&B Auto Wrench. I only found that one Iron Age ad. I didn't see it in any catalogs either. It's construction is unique compared to other auto wrenches. It's pretty hefty for it's size.

d42jeep · Jun 19, 2024

Hall tool ad from 1910 showing a conventional “Automobile” auto wrench. Hall was bought out by Barcalo.

BK, your 12” Moore looks like the ones included in WW2 Ford Jeeps onboard toolsets.

-Don

Private Lugnutz · Jun 19, 2024

Beerhippie said:
-but I'm not sure I've seen 1 1/2" extractors before.

They come bigger!

Private Lugnutz · Jun 19, 2024

AntiqueBen said:
I'm curious to know who produced the first "Auto Wrench" specifically designed for the auto industry?

four.cycle said:
As to who was first, I think you'll find "AUTO" on a variety of early adjustable "monkey" type wrenches.

We've had this discussion before. Although you can if you look hard enough find some technical literature (trade journals, etc) that conflates the terms, once the "Auto wrench" arrived, trade journals and catalogs etc mainly honored the distinctions between them and monkey wrenches. It's not just a difference in industries (RR, oil rigs, heavy construction boltage vs automobile boltage), but a difference in mechanisms. Monkey wrenches are screw wrenches, Auto wrenches are not. They have a worm gear, just like bicycle wrenches. They are, in essence, overgrown bicycle wrenches. Which is what Coes literally called them!

I have posted these before, but reading these two ads, both from 1905, from rival wrench makers, at a time when automobiles were just starting to burgeon, is as entertaining as it is informative. B&S has introduced an "Auto Wrench" and Coes is acerbically "trolling" them - to borrow a term the younger generation uses for passive-aggressive social media messaging, about it. But hindsight is 20/20, and when we use it and the historical privilege of reading between the lines, Coes trying to dual-purpose its all-steel screw wrenches for the automotive industry also smacks of desperation.

Private Lugnutz · Jun 19, 2024

d42jeep said:
...your 12” Moore looks like the ones included in WW2 Ford Jeeps onboard toolsets.

Indeed. For non-jeepers, I always like to point out that the original Willys MB spec for the Auto Wrench was 11" OAL, and "B&S or Equivalent." The QMC and Ordnance Dept spec was the same. And, that's what Willys acquired for factory issue jeep kits, and what the QMC/Orndance Dept acquired for jeep kit spares. Ford, no doubt due to their previous relationship with MDF, preferred the MDF version, which was an odd 12-incher. Just one of those little fun factoids.

four.cycle · Jun 19, 2024

^ thanks for the clarification there. I wasn't about to open a browser page and make an attempt at "auto wrench".

AntiqueBen · Jun 19, 2024

Private Lugnutz said:
We've had this discussion before. Although you can if you look hard enough find some technical literature (trade journals, etc) that conflates the terms, once the "Auto wrench" arrived, trade journals and catalogs etc mainly honored the distinctions between them and monkey wrenches. It's not just a difference in industries (RR, oil rigs, heavy construction boltage vs automobile boltage), but a difference in mechanisms. Monkey wrenches are screw wrenches, Auto wrenches are not. They have a worm gear, just like bicycle wrenches. They are, in essence, overgrown bicycle wrenches. Which is what Coes literally called them!

I have posted these before, but reading these two ads, both from 1905, from rival wrench makers, at a time when automobiles were just starting to burgeon, is as entertaining as it is informative. B&S has introduced an "Auto Wrench" and Coes is acerbically "trolling" them - to borrow a term the younger generation uses for passive-aggressive social media messaging, about it. But hindsight is 20/20, and when we use it and the historical privilege of reading between the lines, Coes trying to dual-purpose its all-steel screw wrenches for the automotive industry also smacks of desperation.

Thanks for these cool ads Lugz. Looks like B&S had their traditional looking Auto Wrench early on. And looks like Coes was simply saying their steel handled monkey wrenches were now dubbed an Auto Wrench if you wanted them to be. Is it safe to say that early on, before the traditional Auto Wrench design (like the above B&S ad), that companies like W&B & Coes used the monkey wrench design for an Auto Wrench? That's what I find fascinating about this W&B Auto Wrench unlike Coes. It is specifically made on purpose as an Auto Wrench (thus Auto on the handle), but more importantly it is still the monkey wrench design but made much thinner to get into tight areas on your car. Yet it is still surprisingly heavy in the hand. That's what makes me wander the age of this W&B Auto Wrench. I'm guessing it would be very early. I've only found one Iron Age ad from 1906, but nothing else.

Private Lugnutz · Jun 19, 2024

Ben,

Yes, I think your W&B screw or monkey wrench with the "AUTO" on the handle was their way of trying to break into a new exploding market with a slightly modified version of the wrench with a mechanism they are tooled to make and used to making for other, older markets.

I don't think Coes was dubbing their old screw wrench an Auto Wrench. I think their pride was too great for that. I think putting "Auto-Wrench" in quotes was derisive. I think they were looking down their nose and scoffing at the upstarts and their "overgrown bicycle wrenches" and suggesting that the screw wrench was a superior tool for automobilists and mechanics - at the same time, I suspect, as their you-know-what was puckering because the writing was on the wall with the coming onslaught and their name wasn't on it.

It didn't work, for either of them.

B&S, Vlchek, and others who were already catering to the nascent auto industry with all kinds of tools were more than happy to make overgrown versions of the bicycle wrenches they were already making. Most of the classic monkey wrench makers were shut out. Including Coes and W&B. I don't even think Williams, W&B's successor, was known for making Auto wrenches.

AntiqueBen · Jun 19, 2024

Private Lugnutz said:
Ben,

Yes, I think your W&B screw or monkey wrench with the "AUTO" on the handle was their way of trying to break into a new exploding market with a slightly modified version of the wrench with a mechanism they are tooled to make and used to making for other, older markets.

I don't think Coes was dubbing their old screw wrench an Auto Wrench. I think their pride was too great for that. I think putting "Auto-Wrench" in quotes was derisive. I think they were looking down their nose and scoffing at the upstarts and their "overgrown bicycle wrenches" and suggesting that the screw wrench was a superior tool for automobilists and mechanics - at the same time, I suspect, as their you-know-what was puckering because the writing was on the wall with the coming onslaught and their name wasn't on it.

It didn't work, for either of them.

B&S, Vlchek, and others who were already catering to the nascent auto industry with all kinds of tools were more than happy to make overgrown versions of the bicycle wrenches they were already making. Most of the classic monkey wrench makers were shut out. Including Coes and W&B. I don't even think Williams, S&B's successor, was known for making Auto wrenches.

I don't think I've ever seen a Williams Auto Wrench either. So, was W&B the only manufacturer that purposely made an Auto Wrench with a monkey wrench design (with the exception of it being thinner)? I can't find any other Auto Wrenches that also looks like a monkey wrench. I knew when I saw this thing something didn't seem right

Private Lugnutz · Jun 19, 2024

I don't know. It's such an odd thing that I don't think you'll get an easy answer from any single person or reference.

four.cycle · Jun 19, 2024

I'm going to tip over your apple cart here:

Vlchek 5-in bicycle wrench (Ebay 265083130647 01).jpg

Vlchek "5 in Auto" bicycle wrench (photo: ebay)

Not sure how many manufacturers put the word "AUTO" on the wrench itself, but the term was and is rather loosely used (and loosely defined.)

AntiqueBen · Jun 19, 2024

four.cycle said:
I'm going to tip over your apple cart here:

Vlchek "5 in Auto" bicycle wrench (photo: ebay)

Not sure how many manufacturers put the word "AUTO" on the wrench itself, but the term was and is rather loosely used (and loosely defined.)

Your right. The term Auto Wrench is loosely used across the board, but to see what looks like a monkey wrench made purposely & stamped as an Auto Wrench is what raised my eyebrow

four.cycle · Jun 19, 2024

^ I cannot recall who all had the word "AUTO" on their wrenches. Only one off the top of my head I can remember is that little Vlchek.

Beerhippie · Jun 19, 2024

four.cycle said:
^ thanks for the clarification there. I wasn't about to open a browser page and make an attempt at "auto wrench".

I auto-wrenched once, years ago. It was extremely painful and the recovery was tedious and long.

AntiqueBen · Jun 19, 2024

Private Lugnutz said:
I don't know. It's such an odd thing that I don't think you'll get an easy answer from any single person or reference.

I found this reference in the 1908 Whitman & Barnes catalog. The Whitman & Barnes catalogs aren't easy to find. This 1908 catalog is the earliest I've found so far.

AntiqueBen · Jun 19, 2024

Private Lugnutz said:
I don't even think Williams, W&B's successor, was known for making Auto wrenches.

I found this 1921 Williams ad that looks like they have 2 Auto Wrenches pictured to the right of the ad. It's definitely not a W&B design.

Private Lugnutz · Jun 19, 2024

four.cycle said:
I'm going to tip over your apple cart here:

No in the least. That 5-inch Vlchek wrench is an Auto wrench. He asked if anyone had ever seen another monkey wrench marked as an "Auto" type wrench.

AntiqueBen · Jun 19, 2024

four.cycle said:
^ I cannot recall who all had the word "AUTO" on their wrenches. Only one off the top of my head I can remember is that little Vlchek.

I have another Auto wrench marked "Auto" on the handle, but I don't know who the manufacturer is? It has what looks to be a "C" in a circle. Not sure who it is.

Edit: Not to go off in the "Auto Wrench weeds" here on the W&B thread. Not sure which thread is best suited for this conversation?

Whitman and Barnes Manufacturing Company (W&B diamond) tool pictures

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