1-2-3 blocks

[alan camby]

Ordered some 123 blocks for my mill the other day. Was ordering some stuff from Mcmaster-carr today and wanted to get some 3/8-16 t-slot nuts for my 5/8" mill slots. Well it appears they don't have that. A quick look at a MSC flier shows they don't either.

The 123 blocks are full of 3/8" holes and a few 3/8-16 threaded holes. I was planning to fasten them to the table with 3/8" studs and t-nuts.

I am not a machinist so have not seen all the tricks. How are you guys firmly attaching the 123 blocks to a mill table? I was hoping to make it simple with my plan above. Now it looks like I will need to use the 1/2-13 t-nuts, 1/2-13 studs, clamps, and toothed ramps.

Now I am not 100% sure the holes are 3/8". The catalog just said that a few holes (can't remember exact #) are threaded 3/8-16. But, the other holes looked similar in size.

Also, is 5/8" the most common size for the slots on a mill?

Bonus point if you have pictures of 123 blocks in use

thanks.

 

[Nelkcots]

Most commonly I would use a stud with clamp like you mentioned. Every once in awhile we use 3/8 studs with some home made blocks that have been in the shop for years...

I know they have t-nuts with 3/8 threaded holes for the mini-mill set up, not sure how those would work in your application though.

 

[alan camby]

Most commonly I would use a stud with clamp like you mentioned. Every once in awhile we use 3/8 studs with some home made blocks that have been in the shop for years...

I know they have t-nuts with 3/8 threaded holes for the mini-mill set up, not sure how those would work in your application though.

I am wondering if the mini mills have a smaller t slot gap, say 1/2" or less.

 

[zkling]

Here is a good write up on them.

http://rick.sparber.org/123.pdf

I rarely use mine. Usually a good vise and a set of parallels will do quite a bit for general mill use. But they do come in handy for certain setups.

As for the t-nuts. I usually like to purchase my hold down items from Enco or the like.

www.use-enco.com

Sign up for their flyer and you will see some great deals come across.

 

[X1 Mike]

You should be making your own 1,2,3 blocks. That is one of the first thing an apprentice does along with squaring a hunk of iron with a file. You will learn a lot of machining techniques, if you can’t square a block of steel up you will never be a machinist. You will also learn planning a job out and you will become the victim of your own engineering mistakes which is a great teacher. By the time it's all said and done you will end up with a few sets with and without holes. I like one side of each to have no holes so dust and chips don't fall through. There really isn't a set use for them, they are just a super versatile tool. I will use them as parallels when I am milling something large and clamp directly to the table. I will use them when I dress a grinding wheel with a radius to bring the centerline of the work out a known amount. I will use them to tram a head in. The list goes on and on.

 

[nine4gmc]

Bonus point if you have pictures of 123 blocks in use

thanks.

This^, in for pics, and info! How would one go about making a set of 123 blocks if they had no reference to go by?

 

[Jersey Tom]

I have actually never bolted 1/2/3 blocks to a table, directly. My MO had always been...

1. Bolt a vice firmly (but not rigidly) down with T-slots or on a big fixture plate

2. Use an indicator to get the stationary jaw of the vice parallel to the x-axis of the mill to within <=0.0010 along the length, and then really bolt down the vice (checking again afterward)

3. Setup whatever kind of stop you want on the vice, slide a 1/2/3 block up against it on top of whatever parallels you'll be using for the part, and use an edge finder to pick up the x- and y- origin (to within ~0.001)

4. Use a 0.1000" (or your favorite size) gauge block to pick up the z- origin (also to within ~0.001).

 

[stonewellmark]

Make your own t-slot nuts. 5/8 t with a 3/8-16 hole in it. Easy first project. Not too critical if its not perfectly square ( although it should be) .

 

[laser3kw]

^^^^^^ beat me to it by that much ^^^^^^
you have mill
you have tools
you have time
make your own t slot nuts.
that is the secret to working with machines. when you run out of ideas, make something up.
some read'n mag's
Homeshop machinist
practical machinist
Digital machinst

 

[stonewellmark]

By making your own tooling you will become a better machinist. Heres a project an old tool and die maker gave me to start with ( A good friends father), " I want you to make me, well you know make it for yourself, a fly cutter. whatever diameter shank you want, but keep it around 1/2" diameter, make the head around 2" in diameter. Then I want a square hole through it at around 30deg. . None of that angle the bottom with a slot and set screw ****." When he passed, I put at his coffin, 2 weeks later I got one from his tool room that he had made while going through his stuff with his son.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

This^, in for pics, and info! How would one go about making a set of 123 blocks if they had no reference to go by?

Not trying to be a **** but they are just chucks of steel 1"x2"x3". You shouldnt need any sort of reference to make them.

Milling a block square and parallel is literally the first thing any machining student would do in school.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

 

[alan camby]

I just made this. So I am already a expert
It is a plate to cover the smile on my Powermatic work table.

For now I was just wanting to use the 123 blocks for a fence when doing repeatable jobs. I really need to take the table off of my mill and figure out how that works and get it working better. I am just getting past the stage where I break tips off of end mills. My X-axis has some backlash somewhere in the mechanism that needs corrected. I have to be real careful to always mill counterclockwise around parts. If back up (clockwise) the endmill will catch, trying to climb up the metal, and throw the table just slightly the opposite direction either snapping the end mill or sliding the part on the table.

If I am not using the Y axis, this axis has to be locked. If I am not using the x axis, this axis needs to be locked.

I bought the mill from a family friend who's dad had died and he had a full size Bridgeport style and this bench top mill. My friend kept his dads large mill and sold me the small one for $250. I think this mill is well over 20 years old.

My biggest complaint about the mill, besides the slop in the table, is the round column. Every Time I raise the spindle by the column the spindle will slightly move to one side due to this design. I don't have the knee. So if I change from a end mill to a drill chuck my spindle will not stay in the same place.

I also found out in my drill press table project, thanks to a GJ member named Kevin, that a ram would have come in real handy for milling around my table.

I am having fun learning

 

[alan camby]

Make your own t-slot nuts. 5/8 t with a 3/8-16 hole in it. Easy first project. Not too critical if its not perfectly square ( although it should be) .

Can I make T slots nuts without a vise? Or, do I need to make a vise first

 

[zkling]

Can I make T slots nuts without a vise? Or, do I need to make a vise first

Thats why I didn't suggest you making t-nuts. Figured if you had a vise you could make your own.

First off, you need to get a vise.

Nice job on the plate, expert. Next time try something with 3D features.

What kind of mill do you have?

 

[alan camby]

I don't have any milling training, but... i do wonder haw many people nowadays can or know how to make intricate parts without the DRO and power feeds.

I don't understand how the center of a object can be found. Do you constantly have to count turns of the dials and add up the revolution and tick marks? or do you have to set up dial indicators everywhere? Curious how the old timers did this.

 

[zkling]

Do you have an edge finder? If not you need to get one asap.

What mill do you have?

I was trained by an old timer who didn't belive in DRO's or the like. With an edge finder and remembering to account for backlash, one can make some very accurate parts. The beauty of the DRO is that it can really help to extend the useful life of a mill that has lots of backlash. Because it is counting actual table movement, not predicted table movement. As well as other features of course.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

I don't have any milling training, but... i do wonder haw many people nowadays can or know how to make intricate parts without the DRO and power feeds.

I don't understand how the center of a object can be found. Do you constantly have to count turns of the dials and add up the revolution and tick marks? or do you have to set up dial indicators everywhere? Curious how the old timers did this.

Depends how accurately you need it done. If it is rough you can use layout fluid and scribe it after measuring up your part. The more accurate way is to use a test indicator mounted on an offset holder to find one side, zero your hand wheel raise the indicator move to the other side of the part counting the revolutions, use the indicator to find the edge on that side then divide the distance in half and you have the center of the part.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

 

[alan camby]

Do you have an edge finder? If not you need to get one asap.

What mill do you have?

I have one of these.
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPAGE?PMPAGE=/specials/105-1110

It is not that brand, Rongfu. It was made by Central machinery in Taiwan. Seems like there are a lot of brands of this same style.

 

[alan camby]

Also, I don't have a edge finder. Maybe i can find a youtube video on how to use one.

 

[nine4gmc]

Not trying to be a **** but they are just chucks of steel 1"x2"x3". You shouldnt need any sort of reference to make them.

Milling a block square and parallel is literally the first thing any machining student would do in school.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

See, it never hit me that 1,2,3 meant measurements of 1", 2" and 3"...I was thinking it makes setup easy as 1,2,3 with some blocks(if the blocks were made right). You're not being a ****, just dealing with people that are unfamiliar with some terms so be patient

 

[Jim Johnstone]

See, it never hit me that 1,2,3 meant measurements of 1", 2" and 3"...I was thinking it makes setup easy as 1,2,3 with some blocks(if the blocks were made right). You're not being a ****, just dealing with people that are unfamiliar with some terms so be patient

The actual measurement often isnt a big deal but 123 are nice easy round numbers. Ultimately the only requirement is that the blocks are in matched sets. I have sets that are spot on 123 and I have sets that have been ground undersized. As long as the blocks you are using at any given time match they are useful. You would use them for spacing up a work piece you are machining, so they need to all be the same size when they are being used together. They are also used for blocking in parts being ground used as parallels in a vise and lots of other uses. I have some blocks I have made that are 0.5,2,3 and eventually I will get around to machining up some 2,4,6 blocks for use on larger setups.

The other thing all machinists home shop or professional should make is various sizes of parallels for themselves.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

 

[X1 Mike]

The actual measurement often isnt a big deal but 123 are nice easy round numbers. Ultimately the only requirement is that the blocks are in matched sets. I have sets that are spot on 123 and I have sets that have been ground undersized. As long as the blocks you are using at any given time match they are useful. You would use them for spacing up a work piece you are machining, so they need to all be the same size when they are being used together. They are also used for blocking in parts being ground used as parallels in a vise and lots of other uses. I have some blocks I have made that are 0.5,2,3 and eventually I will get around to machining up some 2,4,6 blocks for use on larger setups.

The other thing all machinists home shop or professional should make is various sizes of parallels for themselves.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

+ 1

As a matter of fact if you make a set it is best to start a little bigger than 1,2,3. Leave .001 - .002" heavy so the blocks can find their happy place. In about a year you can grind them to finish size.

 

[Steinmetz]

I don't have any milling training, but... i do wonder haw many people nowadays can or know how to make intricate parts without the DRO and power feeds.

I don't understand how the center of a object can be found. Do you constantly have to count turns of the dials and add up the revolution and tick marks? or do you have to set up dial indicators everywhere? Curious how the old timers did this.

Edge finder and center finder. Read up. The DRO isn't necessary. Years ago, we didn't have this luxury. I was apprenticed to the machinist trade out of high school.

 

[Steinmetz]

I just made this. So I am already a expert
It is a plate to cover the smile on my Powermatic work table.

For now I was just wanting to use the 123 blocks for a fence when doing repeatable jobs. I really need to take the table off of my mill and figure out how that works and get it working better. I am just getting past the stage where I break tips off of end mills. My X-axis has some backlash somewhere in the mechanism that needs corrected. I have to be real careful to always mill counterclockwise around parts. If back up (clockwise) the endmill will catch, trying to climb up the metal, and throw the table just slightly the opposite direction either snapping the end mill or sliding the part on the table.

If I am not using the Y axis, this axis has to be locked. If I am not using the x axis, this axis needs to be locked.

I bought the mill from a family friend who's dad had died and he had a full size Bridgeport style and this bench top mill. My friend kept his dads large mill and sold me the small one for $250. I think this mill is well over 20 years old.

My biggest complaint about the mill, besides the slop in the table, is the round column. Every Time I raise the spindle by the column the spindle will slightly move to one side due to this design. I don't have the knee. So if I change from a end mill to a drill chuck my spindle will not stay in the same place.

I also found out in my drill press table project, thanks to a GJ member named Kevin, that a ram would have come in real handy for milling around my table.

I am having fun learning

Is that aluminum paint on the support column?

 

[alan camby]

Is that aluminum paint on the support column?

No paint, just the factory column cleaned up. Picture was taken a few days ago.
Search my started threads and you can find my powermatic thread.
Don't know how to link on my phone.

 

[Steinmetz]

No paint, just the factory column cleaned up. Picture was taken a few days ago.
Search my started threads and you can find my powermatic thread.
Don't know how to link on my phone.

A real nice job. Have you trammed the table, and checked the runout on the spindle?

 

[zkling]

You definitely need to get an edge finder. I would not suggest buying used as they can be used pretty hard. A nice starrett or other name brand is only $20 from enco or the like. Probably the best $20 you will spend on that mill.

After that a dial TEST indicator in 0.0005" graduations will be very useful for you for tramming the vise as well as indicating hole locations. Unfortunately they don't come as cheap as the edge finders. Buy a good one and it will last you a life time. I perfer Brown and Sharpe Best test. Look on ebay, should be able to find one under $100.

As for proper use. Look up a user by the name of Tubalcain on youtube. He is a retired shop teacher and is really good at not only demonstrating, but teaching machining practices.

 

[Kevin54]

I don't have any milling training, but... i do wonder haw many people nowadays can or know how to make intricate parts without the DRO and power feeds.

I don't understand how the center of a object can be found. Do you constantly have to count turns of the dials and add up the revolution and tick marks? or do you have to set up dial indicators everywhere? Curious how the old timers did this.

I've trained a lot of others how to run a mill and a lathe. Without being right there, it's sort of hard to explain to people the proper way to do things without going into a real in depth detail. For me, it's easier to show someone over explaining to someone. For starters, look up pete222 or Tubalcain on Youtube. Both are the same person, be he has some really informative info for people, and he does go into detail. Does he explain it in a way that everyone agrees to? Maybe not all, but for someone wanting to learn, he can't be beat.

I've also told some others........Go to a few websites and get their catalog(s) sent to your house. A lot of the catalogs have some very good explanations as to what certain tools are used for. That is one thing that you will need to know or learn. Then depending on your machine, and again as I have told others....."Become one with the machine" and Become one with the material". You need to learn and know what "backlash" is. Every machine will have it. Whether it be only a couple of thousandths, or whether it be .050, you need to know how to compensate for it without having a digital readout. Backlash is "slop" in your table. For instance.........Say you have your dial set at "zero" and you starting cranking a handle counter clockwise to get to "zero". Now you want to move the dial to 1.000 but went past the mark on the dial. You don't want to just move the dial backwards to get to 1.000. What you have to do is move the dial clockwise to maybe somewhere around .500, then move it counter clockwise again to the "zero" mark. That will keep the backlash out. If you have .050 in backlash, and you go past your 1.000 mark, then turn the dial clockwise to the 1.000 mark, your part will be .050 off, give or take. It takes a while to learn and remember how to keep the backlash out, but once you do it a number of times, then remember it, you can start making the precisions parts you seek.

I learned many years ago by my Mentor that taught me the finer things of machining....."A good machine doesn't make a machinist...a good machinist will make the machine". That is when you will learn to become one with the machine and become one with the material. You learn to listen and "see" things mentally. Sounds will tell you very much as to what the machine is doing without actually seeing what the machine is doing.

And don't fail to ask a question about what you are doing. Being too proud to ask will get a person into trouble and possibly seriously hurt.

And with all of that gibberish and my curiosity, why are you wanting to fasten down 1-2-3 Blocks to your table? If you want to use them as blocking to be able to slide a part against them to hold the part square, you'll need a good .001 indicator or a .0005 indicator to make sure they are in line with each other or if only fastening one block down, you want to still use an indicator to make sure you are square with things.

 

[Steinmetz]

You should be making your own 1,2,3 blocks. That is one of the first thing an apprentice does along with squaring a hunk of iron with a file. You will learn a lot of machining techniques, if you can’t square a block of steel up you will never be a machinist. You will also learn planning a job out and you will become the victim of your own engineering mistakes which is a great teacher. By the time it's all said and done you will end up with a few sets with and without holes. I like one side of each to have no holes so dust and chips don't fall through. There really isn't a set use for them, they are just a super versatile tool. I will use them as parallels when I am milling something large and clamp directly to the table. I will use them when I dress a grinding wheel with a radius to bring the centerline of the work out a known amount. I will use them to tram a head in. The list goes on and on.

Why would he want to make them when he has no access to a surface grinder?

 

[Hafen_Kafer]

You should be making your own 1,2,3 blocks. That is one of the first thing an apprentice does along with squaring a hunk of iron with a file. You will learn a lot of machining techniques, if you can’t square a block of steel up you will never be a machinist.

What's next? You're gonna suggest he makes his own c-clamps?


"Rusty Wallace"
I made it in 2001 at the community college.

 

[X1 Mike]

Why would he want to make them when he has no access to a surface grinder?

You are right I wasn't aware he faced such an insurmountable challenge. I will revise my advice.

You should throw your hands in the air and give up.