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1/2 inch vs 13mm

Adam.C

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If I purchase a socket set with a missing size I purchase the missing socket. SK makes the sizes as I have a 1/4 drive SK 13mm.

To be fair to manufacturers, I think we should call these "missing" or "skipped sizes" sockets "non-standard", "infrequently used" or even "unnecessary". I've used my 11mm bleeder wrench to box wrench for the only 11mm fasteners I've EVER seen. Do I need an 11mm socket, deep socket, 3/8" and 1/4" drive? No. Maybe one 11mm socket would make sense.

I prefer such sizes be left out of kits. Otherwise, manufacturers could be accused of adding unnecessary tools to kits to drive up their price.
 
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6PTsocket

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My S-K 1/2" wrenches won't fit a 13mm bolt or nut.
And they are not supposed to but occasionally fasteners are under size and they do fit,snugly. If the choice is using the 1/2 that goes on with a little wiggle or going for a 13mm, I will use it. No harm.

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6PTsocket

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While I agree with your point about 19mm, what you wrote is slightly misleading:

3/4" sockets don't measure 3/4" across the flats. Ditto, bolt heads aren't exact. Adding extra slop, even a few thousandths, allows the socket to rotate further possibly bearing on the bolt's corners instead of the flats as it was designed.

I agree .002" is probably imperceptible in 19mm. But it probably doesn't take much more (percentage wise) for the socket to round a bolt head in some circumstances.

Having just left Britain, I can attest to the fact that times are tough over there and really throughout western Europe. Tougher than I think Americans realize. The pound and euro are tragically low against the dollar and people need to economize where they can. British mechanics I knew saw very few inch sized fasteners (old land rovers being the exception) so many had few or no inch sized tools. Guys who worked on Landies needed whitworth and other goofy tools and tended to be specialists.

US mechanics, despite complaints here, aren't in such dire straits. They can generally afford to own every socket known to man. I've never encountered a pro mechanic who used metric tools on SAE equipment or vice versa.

Automotive repair and restoration is a popular hobby across a pretty broad spectrum of income/demographics in the US. I didn't see that in the UK. These mechanics also seem to own every socket known to man. I sure do.

Last- I lived not far from the Haines Motor Museum and if anyone is travelling over there, that is worth a trip (skip stone henge). Ditto, no trip to Germany is complete without a visit to at least the Mercedes or Porsche factory. Both are well worth visiting. Haines had a bit of a mecca like factor for car guys, but I was surprised it wasn't a bigger deal. Over here, car guy get-togethers like "cars and coffee" are pretty amazing. I feel like americans like working on cars and have a lot more money to spend on their cars and hobbies. This is all to say, no we don't use 13mm on 1/2".
The only time I ever saw Whitworth was on my Canadian built sailboat that was fitted with British turnbuckles. If I have it correct Whitworth sizes are measured across the points rather than across the flats. I ended up opening up a 7/16" US wrench a little.

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Nigelhirst

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I looked at SK's catalog and it seems that you may have their No. 89009 set that only goes up to 12mm in shallow and deep. The No. 1314 only has shallow sockets and goes up to 13mm. All of the rest of their 1/4 sets go up to 15mm in six point (shallow and deep) and one goes up to 15mm deep and 16mm in shallow. And they have two semi deeps sets that go up to 15mm - 41692 with just sockets on a rail and 91824 that includes a ratchet and spinner handle.

SK offers different set sizes to probably satisfy need and price point. Your supplier is absolutely wrong and you should ask if he offers the other SK sets such as:
1313 (only shallow metric up to 15mm)
1312 (deep up to 15mm)
91848 (up to 15mm shallow and deep plus SAE and ratchet, etc.)
91844 (up to 15mm shallow and deep plus SAE and ratchet, etc.)
91860 (that goes up to 16mm in shallow, 15mm deep plus SAE and ratchet, etc.).

:beer:

Thanks for that. This was a Facom-era set I purchased some years ago. SK tools are no longer available in the UK - this was a 'job lot' purchase :lol:
 

nbpt100

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Hello everyone. Just a quick thought.
I have two SK sets - a 1/4 drive metric normal and deep and a stubby wrench set.
The socket set stops at 12mm and the wrench set at 18. Here in Europe 13 and 19mm are common sizes, so I asked the supplier why they are 'missing'. The answer was 'because in the US you would have 1/2 and 3/4 already and use those.'
Well, 13mm equates to 0.512 inch so a 1/2" would be tight, but 19mm is a better equivalent at 0.748".
I wonder if manufacturers actually bother to use different broachings though:confused:
Nigel

I think we pretty much covered this topic and then some but back to the OPs original comments. Would a manufacturer use the same or different broachings (tooling) on a 19mm and a 3/4 wrench? I would guess It would depend on what they spec. the wrench openings to. I would not be surprised. It seems like .002 is likely with in their tolerance range for an opening of that size. Maybe not the high end wrenches. I was told by a Snap On dealer that they have much tighter wrench opening tolerances than other brands. Who really knows? Unless you get their manufacturing prints you can only take a sales reps word.
I was just a bit curious and looked in my machinery hand book and could not find anything of relevance on wrench opening specs for automotive tools. Maybe there is an SAE spec out there but my curiosity has run out to go look.
If someone really wanted to know they could acquire about 30 wrenches of the sizes in question from a variety of brands and measure the wrench opening. Do some statistical analysis and back into their specs. Maybe a good project for a grad student somewhere.
:beer2:
 

BDT/NWMN

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They offer it in the shallow, mid-depth and deep 6 point socket sets and in 12 point sets. A total of 10 different sets offer it. It's in every set I cited plus three more. So because they sell some sets that do not offer it, you'd skip buying the sets that do and go to another brand? Makes no sense to me.

Using that rationale, Snap On skips the 4 and 4.5mm socket in some of their sets - so you'd go to another manufacturer in that case also even though they offer it in other sets. To each his own I guess.

It does make sense to Me, because ProTo and SnapOn are My favored tool brands.. Also, Mr SnapOn usually says: "no problem". SK, Duro, and Craftsman have been purchased over the years much as a matter of convenience to backup My most frequently used tools. With USA Craftsman and Duro(long) out of the picture; that left SK, till they crashed.
The SK tools were once sold in a local hardware store; where I could walk in and look them over. Sk had some crappy years; and not every eBay seller will state whether the set they are selling is new stock or leftover stock from crappy years. It certainly doesn't help matters when eBay sellers include three pages of jabber in their ads, and don't list the sizes of the sockets in the set.

Current SK sets of 1/4" drive flex sockets perk My interest. Acme Tools in Grand Forks, ND stocked SK tools before the SK crash.. I plan on stopping there while in GF tomorrow and see if/what they have in SK stock. I will hopefully have a chance to look over the current production flex sockets. If I like what I see, and it's a reasonable price; I may buy them. No hurry.. I should mention the Current SK production has one of, if not THE most impressive 1/4" drive socket assortments I have viewed.


You can have crappy salesmanship, or total lack of salesmanship sink the sale of a good product. I recall ONE SnapOn dealer some years ago. He was one of the most arrogant humanoids I have ever met, so I avoided him.

I consider some of the SK peddlers in the same humanoid camp as that SnapOn dealer.. I did e-mail one eBay seller today; asking the socket sizes in a set... Do these people think we don't care? I was curious as to how long it will take to respond... Well, it couldn't be any worse than the Craftsman site a few years back, where i got no response after several tries..... Or calling SnapOn customer service and asking for the phone number of our area dealer. I was told our area did not have an area dealer.. Being I had met the SnapOn truck numerous times while driving, I contacted an area Auto Dealership I worked for years back, and inquired there.. I was given The SnapOn Dealers phone number and called Him.. Arrangements were made to meet the following week at one of his regular stops.. In the meantime;;;;;; a few days later;;;; I called SnapOn customer service a second time. The phone was answered by the same crabby woman; and I asked her the same question as before. Again I was told there was no area dealer serving our area.. I enjoyed informing her that I had contacted our Area Dealer, and would be meeting up with Him in Erskine on Thursday.. Then I asked "would you like His name and phone number"?? After a moment of silence, she grumbled a response.. I told her I called out of respect for any other customers who are also trying to contact our SnapOn Dealer.. The Young Dealer was a friendly, businesslike person.. I bought some tools, and had three ratchets repaired.. I told Him about the crabby woman. I believe she was another member of the humanoid camp I mentioned earlier..

ProTo, SnapOn, and SK are My three prime tool choices..
As mentioned;Poor salesmanship can sour My purchase of any of the three.
I usually have two quality options during those times.
Being SK is #3 on My list, it is not big deal for Me to bump them.
 
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PJNJ

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It does make sense to Me, because ProTo and SnapOn are My favored tool brands.. Also, Mr SnapOn usually says: "no problem". SK, Duro, and Craftsman have been purchased over the years much as a matter of convenience to backup My most frequently used tools. With USA Craftsman and Duro(long) out of the picture; that left SK, till they crashed.
The SK tools were once sold in a local hardware store; where I could walk in and look them over. Sk had some crappy years; and not every eBay seller will state whether the set they are selling is new stock or leftover stock from crappy years. It certainly doesn't help matters when eBay sellers include three pages of jabber in their ads, and don't list the sizes of the sockets in the set.

Current SK sets of 1/4" drive flex sockets perk My interest. Acme Tools in Grand Forks, ND stocked SK tools before the SK crash.. I plan on stopping there while in GF tomorrow and see if/what they have in SK stock. I will hopefully have a chance to look over the current production flex sockets. If I like what I see, and it's a reasonable price; I may buy them. No hurry.. I should mention the Current SK production has one of, if not THE most impressive 1/4" drive socket assortments I have viewed.


You can have crappy salesmanship, or total lack of salesmanship sink the sale of a good product. I recall ONE SnapOn dealer some years ago. He was one of the most arrogant humanoids I have ever met, so I avoided him.

I consider some of the SK peddlers in the same humanoid camp as that SnapOn dealer.. I did e-mail one eBay seller today; asking the socket sizes in a set... Do these people think we don't care? I was curious as to how long it will take to respond... Well, it couldn't be any worse than the Craftsman site a few years back, where i got no response after several tries..... Or calling SnapOn customer service and asking for the phone number of our area dealer. I was told our area did not have an area dealer.. Being I had met the SnapOn truck numerous times while driving, I contacted an area Auto Dealership I worked for years back, and inquired there.. I was given The SnapOn Dealers phone number and called Him.. Arrangements were made to meet the following week at one of his regular stops.. In the meantime;;;;;; a few days later;;;; I called SnapOn customer service a second time. The phone was answered by the same crabby woman; and I asked her the same question as before. Again I was told there was no area dealer serving our area.. I enjoyed informing her that I had contacted our Area Dealer, and would be meeting up with Him in Erskine on Thursday.. Then I asked "would you like His name and phone number"?? After a moment of silence, she grumbled a response.. I told her I called out of respect for any other customers who are also trying to contact our SnapOn Dealer.. The Young Dealer was a friendly, businesslike person.. I bought some tools, and had three ratchets repaired.. I told Him about the crabby woman. I believe she was another member of the humanoid camp I mentioned earlier..

ProTo, SnapOn, and SK are My three prime tool choices..
As mentioned;Poor salesmanship can sour My purchase of any of the three.
I usually have two quality options during those times.
Being SK is #3 on My list, it is not big deal for Me to bump them.

Well that's five minutes of my life I'll never get back. You could've just said you like Snap On and Proto better and been done with it.

As for Ebay sellers, "who'd a thunk it" that some of them ****. They **** for Snap On, Proto and others as well as SK. That wouldn't sour me on a brand. Instead I buy new SK from Amazon, Tooltopia, JB Tool Sales and will probably order some from Epstein's this year. Ebay re-sellers would probably be the last place I buy from if I want to avoid pre-Ideal product.
 

BDT/NWMN

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Well that's five minutes of my life I'll never get back. You could've just said you like Snap On and Proto better and been done with it.

As for Ebay sellers, "who'd a thunk it" that some of them ****. They **** for Snap On, Proto and others as well as SK. That wouldn't sour me on a brand. Instead I buy new SK from Amazon, Tooltopia, JB Tool Sales and will probably order some from Epstein's this year. Ebay re-sellers would probably be the last place I buy from if I want to avoid pre-Ideal product.



I agree as to some of the eBay sellers peddling pre-Ideal stuff.. I am going to check with Acme Tool and see If I like the swivel sockets. If not on sale, I can wait. I was going to mention ordering from HJE But I figured the post might get too long ;)
 

PJNJ

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I agree as to some of the eBay sellers peddling pre-Ideal stuff.. I am going to check with Acme Tool and see If I like the swivel sockets. If not on sale, I can wait. I was going to mention ordering from HJE But I figured the post might get too long ;)

Because of issues with some Ebay sellers in the past, I tend to only buy used items including tools from Ebay now. Because of the price point and nostalgia (SK were the first tools I owned as a kid), SK has become a tool brand I purchase. I would like to get more Snap On as I only have the odd used socket and wrench from flea markets and garage sales and sets of used/NOS flare nut wrenches from Ebay. But the costs, even for used, usually exceed my financial reach. Maybe someday I'll be able to justify just one more ratchet for my collection, a 3/8 Dual 80 flex. :D

In addition, I must apologize. I re-read some of my earlier posts and realize I was a little too cranky. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I was trying to force my own on you.

:beer:
 
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BDT/NWMN

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Because of issues with some Ebay sellers in the past, I tend to only buy used items including tools from Ebay now. Because of the price point and nostalgia (SK were the first tools I owned as a kid), SK has become a tool brand I purchase. I would like to get more Snap On as I only have the odd used socket and wrench from flea markets and garage sales and sets of used/NOS flare nut wrenches from Ebay. But the costs, even for used, usually exceed my financial reach. Maybe someday I'll be able to justify just one more ratchet for my collection, a 3/8 Dual 80 flex. :D

In addition, I must apologize. I re-read some of my earlier posts and realize I was a little too cranky. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I was trying to force my own on you.

:beer:
:beer::beer::beer: I have been looking for a good buy on the 1/4" drive version of that SnapOn ratchet ! I bought the Italian ProTo competitor to the SnapOn a few months back, but gave it away as a Christmas gift. I liked the design of the ProTo, but prefer the reverse lever on the SnapOn ratchets..

No big hurry, as the SK40970 I bought new in 1975 got it's first kit a few years ago, so it should be good for another 4 decades:D
 
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I have a JD lawnmower that has a 1/2 nut and bolt on each side of the seat holding it on andb13mm in Wright,sk,and snap on fit it fine just a hair loose while 1/2 is snug on all brands even tried wrenches on a 1/2 ratchet head it will work as long as bolt is new i found.
Not new here just didn't like my old username and don't care to start over.
 
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6PTsocket

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I think we pretty much covered this topic and then some but back to the OPs original comments. Would a manufacturer use the same or different broachings (tooling) on a 19mm and a 3/4 wrench? I would guess It would depend on what they spec. the wrench openings to. I would not be surprised. It seems like .002 is likely with in their tolerance range for an opening of that size. Maybe not the high end wrenches. I was told by a Snap On dealer that they have much tighter wrench opening tolerances than other brands. Who really knows? Unless you get their manufacturing prints you can only take a sales reps word.
I was just a bit curious and looked in my machinery hand book and could not find anything of relevance on wrench opening specs for automotive tools. Maybe there is an SAE spec out there but my curiosity has run out to go look.
If someone really wanted to know they could acquire about 30 wrenches of the sizes in question from a variety of brands and measure the wrench opening. Do some statistical analysis and back into their specs. Maybe a good project for a grad student somewhere.
:beer2:
I agree. When you go from the theoretical to the practical, I find that it doesn't make a damn bit of difference wherher you use 13mm or 3/4". If others feel they can feel the difference or to your point, whether there really is one , by all means use the correct wrench/socket. I think many are just hung up on the idea that the tool is the "wrong" one and something terrible could happen. It would be interesting to do a blind test with the markings covered to see how many could really tell them apart.

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johninct

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A sales representative's job is to make the sale. It is not his job to know every detail about every product he is selling. It is not his job to give you accurate information about the product. His one and only objective and responsibility is to close the deal and make the sale.
If you are willing to believe everything a sales rep tells you, I have at least two bridges I would be happy to sell you.

I believe a sales rep should have some knowledge of the product they are selling. I won't buy a product when after reading the box and not getting an answer to my question, I ask the sales person who just reads the box like I did.
 

nbpt100

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I believe a sales rep should have some knowledge of the product they are selling. I won't buy a product when after reading the box and not getting an answer to my question, I ask the sales person who just reads the box like I did.

You are right on! When you go to a Box store the sales person often reads the package and that is all they know. In fact, I know someone who worked at Lowes for a stint and they got no product training. They were specifically told by their management to read the package to the customer. They got safety training and that was it.

That is what you expect from someone in their pay grade.

When you talk to a Sales man selling a high end product who is making a lot more than that guy on the floor at Lowes you expect honest and meaning full communication. If not they lost me. They should have depth and if not they should be able to go find out and get back to you.

If the guy driving the tool truck or in a specialty tool store knows no more than the guy at Lowes, or blatantly lies, then I would not buy from him. He does not deserve to be in that position. That is the kind of sales man that should be at some box store until they grow up.
 
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Nigelhirst

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Where in the UK did did you get your SK wrenches?

Consolidated Tools, but I bought all the remainder of his stock I think - stubby combinations, 3/8 shallow and deep, 1/4 shallow and deep and 1/2 wobble extensions. Last time I went to the US I ordered the 'missing' sizes from Mytoolstore.com and had them delivered to my hotel.

Consolidated sells AST and Koken now. The AST combinations bear a 'remarkable' resemblance to a well-known tool brand....and they are on close-out as well:willy_nil
 

dutchgray

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I have bought a little SK from Consolidated tools as well when it was on closeout and some from my local tool shop (1/4" metric sockets, the only SK i ever saw there) when SK was owned by Facom it could be sourced but i don't think there is a UK distributor now.
 

dutchgray

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Having just left Britain, I can attest to the fact that times are tough over there and really throughout western Europe. Tougher than I think Americans realize. The pound and euro are tragically low against the dollar and people need to economize where they can. British mechanics I knew saw very few inch sized fasteners (old land rovers being the exception) so many had few or no inch sized tools. Guys who worked on Landies needed whitworth and other goofy tools and tended to be specialists.

US mechanics, despite complaints here, aren't in such dire straits. They can generally afford to own every socket known to man. I've never encountered a pro mechanic who used metric tools on SAE equipment or vice versa.

Automotive repair and restoration is a popular hobby across a pretty broad spectrum of income/demographics in the US. I didn't see that in the UK. These mechanics also seem to own every socket known to man. I sure do.

Last- I lived not far from the Haines Motor Museum and if anyone is travelling over there, that is worth a trip (skip stone henge). Ditto, no trip to Germany is complete without a visit to at least the Mercedes or Porsche factory. Both are well worth visiting. Haines had a bit of a mecca like factor for car guys, but I was surprised it wasn't a bigger deal. Over here, car guy get-togethers like "cars and coffee" are pretty amazing. I feel like americans like working on cars and have a lot more money to spend on their cars and hobbies. This is all to say, no we don't use 13mm on 1/2".

I don't think that the hobby is smaller here, there are a lot of car people but its the money as you said that's lacking. We are poorer here than the USA and have been since WW2, we also don't have the space, even a single garage is costly to own verses a house with out, there are very few collectors with lots of cars and a 5000 sq ft building to put them in, its not like you can keep classics outside here. If you lived near Haines motor museum you were near me and probably know even a 1 bedroom flat would cost £100k to buy or £500 month rent, and its not like this area is particularly affluent. Haines himself started his museum as it was the only way he could keep all his cars in the same place.
 

rlitman

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Yes, there is a huge difference between 1/2" and 13mm. Enough that 1/2" should not fit on 13mm parts, and 13mm will round 1/2" parts. I find this to be a big issue on battery terminal bolts, where idiots round over 1/2" nuts all the time with their 13mm wrench that they think fits all battery terminals.



I happen to own Snap On 19mm and 3/4" wrenches. They're completely interchangeable, and I suspect they use the same broach on both. However, it happens to be a size I don't mind owning duplicate wrenches in.



Well I had to check this, and I need to correct myself. Snap On OEX24B 3/4" measures 0.756" between the flats, and OEXM190B 19mm measures 0.754" between the flats. The 19mm was supposed to be two thousandths of an inch smaller than 3/4", and at least with Snap On's broaching, it is. I never would have expected to see that, but I had to measure it for myself.
 

nbpt100

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Well I had to check this, and I need to correct myself. Snap On OEX24B 3/4" measures 0.756" between the flats, and OEXM190B 19mm measures 0.754" between the flats. The 19mm was supposed to be two thousandths of an inch smaller than 3/4", and at least with Snap On's broaching, it is. I never would have expected to see that, but I had to measure it for myself.

It does not surprise me. For the price you pay for Snap on they should not cut any corners and hold to a narrow tolerance.
Now if you were to do the same on a Stanley or what ever is on the shelf at Wal Mart you may see the same opening on the 3/4 and 19mm.
 

Adam.C

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My guess is, the tolerance for the inside dimensions of a socket is less than .001" for the reasons I've already explained.

i sincerely doubt any serious manufacturer would use common tooling for close sizes.
 
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