1/4” snap-on midget Thandle

[SOCKETS]

Would appreciate if you guys can share some 1/4” midget Snapon T handle examples with me.
Top would be a 9/32” dr.
Bottom is a 1/4” dr.
Trying to find out more details about it.
Any pictures would be appreciated.

Please Note: Not 9/32” pcs grinded down to 1/4”
im looking to see examples of exact 1/4” drive like the one pictured.

Thanks in advance.



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[SOCKETS]

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[RichoTas]

Wow, that's one cute T Handle. A vintage piece?

 

[SOCKETS]

yes, 1940s.


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[snapmom]

They did not make this in 1/4. There are several types of 9/32

 

[Zrxrunner]

9/32 on mine too

 

[SOCKETS]

They did not make this in 1/4. There are several types of 9/32

Yes, There are 3 different sizes in 9/32” drive.
and yes there are exact 1/4” Thandles, not in any catolog. i happen to own 2 pieces.They fit all newer 1/4” sockets Smoothly up to year 2021 and no they do not hold any 9/32 drive sockets from 1920s to 1960s. My 1/4” Thandles are Undated, i believe them to be 1944-1945. i currently own 156 complete snap-on midget sets. Im looking for info on these specific exact 1/4” Thandles.


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[snapmom]

What are the model numbers? Should start with a T. Post some pics.

 

[SOCKETS]

What are the model numbers? Should start with a T. Post some pics.

T-Handle MARKED M-3

Yes i understand, average person would be lead to believe all midget tools that start with T are 1/4” and tools that start with M are 9/32 as per the catolog. Not the case when you have a massive collection to distinguish the differences.

For example the 1930s PM sets, T handles From the sets are marked with the M and not PM. Im actually Still in the lookout for a 1/4” M-4 Thandle for the 1930s Gm Set.

Im sure you have noticed there are a few discrepancies with catologs through out the years. There are no TM sets Marked G-1945 as shown in catolog. More likely OVER STOCK from E-1944.

Many don’t even know M 9/32” continued into the 1950s

There are many examples of snapon using same part numbers for tools even though being different a bit and even using same part number on completely different tools.

Here is an example of your average 1930s PM ratchet.
Snap-On being lazy or in a hurry. 1937 and 1939
P being stamped underneath MIDGET an P Being overstruck on top of the letter t on midget. Same M-70-N Ratchet, just changing to locking driver and sticking P on it.

One of the best clear examples, m-70-m 1/4” E 1944 did not turn to “Tm-70-m” in 1944. The Letter T did Not get added to the ratchet that year. There are a few examples of 1/4” E 1944 ratchets, M-70-M and GM-70-M being the most common.








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[snapmom]

The ratchet wheels are interchangeable. many 9/32 rats were converted to 1/4
The GM-70-N from the 30s is a factory 1/4 rat. It is very hard to find.
Have yet to see a TM-3
The Pyralin handles from the 30s breaks apart with age, hard to find the M4 with the oldest type handle
You have a nice collection.

 

[Ralf11]

How did we ever wind up with a 9/32" drive anyway? Seems crazy...

 

[Private Lugnutz]

One of the best clear examples, m-70-m 1/4” E 1944 did not turn to “Tm-70-m” in 1944. The Letter T did Not get added to the ratchet.

That's because the earliest 1/4-drive ratchet they made was a 9/32-drive ratchet frame with a 1/4-drive plug inserted in the head. Massiveness can be overrated. You only need to own one of each and have a basic understanding of ratchet construction to observe that. The salience of that to Snapmom's point about your one-off T handles is that those frames were already made and marked M-70. Ditto your M-3 T handles. Whether those were made in a factory as special order or part of a ridiculously small production run, your T handles started life as 9/32-drive T handles. I don't know if the drive studs were ground or re-formed in a die to modify them from 9/32-drive to 1/4-drive before finishing, but the idea that Snap-on made them from scratch as 1/4-drive and then deliberately marked them with a 9/32-drive model number makes no sense.

Still aspiring to Snapmom's averageness!

 

[SOCKETS]

The ratchet wheels are interchangeable. many 9/32 rats were converted to 1/4
The GM-70-N from the 30s is a factory 1/4 rat. It is very hard to find.
Have yet to see a TM-3
The Pyralin handles from the 30s breaks apart with age, hard to find the M4 with the oldest type handle
You have a nice collection.

I do not bealieve there is a TM-3 but there could be based on some cases/boxes i own.
Yes there is a complete 1930s 1/4” GM set. I have yet to see the T handle. QUICK FACT: You heard it here first!
if you clean pyralin handles 1930s-1940s with any fluids: water, alcohol, oil. Odds of Cracking are extremely high. i have cracked about 5 by cleaning gently with water.
Leave as is. Do not clean.


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[Private Lugnutz]

How did we ever wind up with a 9/32" drive anyway? Seems crazy...

I've actually done a deep dive on that subject. The first midget socket drive tools, for electrical, radio, and magdyno ignition type work, were 5/16-drive. Hex. Several OEMs. Then square. Then 9/32. Then 1/4. I'm actually sitting in a doctors office waiting room, but I can fill that in with more details later if you're interested. The reason it persisted so long, especially in aerospace, has to do with torque and shear. That extra /32nd of steel was significant to the USAAF and others. I can share the rough math on that later, too, if you're interested. Better steel is what ultimately made it unnecessary. That and precision power tools.

 

[SOCKETS]

That's because the earliest 1/4-drive ratchet they made was a 9/32-drive ratchet frame with a 1/4-drive plug inserted in the head. Massiveness can be overrated. You only need to own one of each and have a basic understanding of ratchet construction to observe that. The salience of that to Snapmom's point about your one-off T handles is that those frames were already made and marked M-70. Ditto your M-3 T handles. Whether those were made in a factory as special order or part of a ridiculously small production run, your T handles started life as 9/32-drive T handles. I don't know if the drive studs were ground or re-formed in a die to modify them from 9/32-drive to 1/4-drive before finishing, but the idea that Snap-on made them from scratch as 1/4-drive and then deliberately marked them with a 9/32-drive model number makes no sense.

Still aspiring to Snapmom's averageness!

This Topic was opened for me to find more information on 1/4” T handles.
i Guess im the only one that knows Snap-On started 1/4” tools mid to late 1930s as i happen to own several 1/4” tools from 1930s. 1930s EXACT 1/4” drive is NOT EXCLUSIVE to T handles. You know how many complete Snap-On midget sets i own, now just imagine how many extra random spare tools i own. 1/4” is REAL.
The Gm Ratchet is not the only 1/4”.

im hoping that by opening this thread people will take a look at their sets. could be an actual 1/4”. and share with me.

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[Oldtuleguy]

They are out there, but labeled m3, so typically it is assumed they are modified. If someone did special order one I would speculate snapon simply machined down an m3. Not in any catalog I have seen. I think 1/4 drive sockets were in industrial catalogs in late 30s but I have not come across any.

 

[SOCKETS]

They are out there, but labeled m3, so typically it is assumed they are modified. If someone did special order one I would speculate snapon simply machined down an m3. Not in any catalog I have seen. I think 1/4 drive sockets were in industrial catalogs in late 30s but I have not come across any.

yes, ive been keeping an eye out. those early industrial catologs are almost like myths.


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[Private Lugnutz]

This Topic was opened for me to find more information on 1/4” T handles. i Guess im the only one that knows Snap-On started 1/4” tools mid to late 1930s...

You posted a photo of an M-3 that you say has a 1/4-drive stud and that you have dated, rightfully so, I'd say, to the 40's. Hence my reference to all the 9/32-drive M-70's Snap-on converted to 1/4-drive M-70's, and my postulation that your 1/4-drive T handle was similarly made (machined) from a T-handle that started out as a 9/32-drive T-handle and was originally marked with a 9/32-drive handle model number for that reason. That doesn't have anything to do with a broader midget topic.

The consensus among Snap-on collectors who have shared their tools and thoughts with other Snap-on collectors here and on collectingsnapon.com is that Snap-on was at least dabbling in 1/4-drive in the 30's, hence the known GM-70 rat and the undocumented industrial application or special order theories. But the prevailing conventional wisdom on the commercially advertised sequence was M- to TM-, and, again, that's where I think your M-3 1/4-drive T handles fit.

The suggestion that Snap-on was routinely making 1/4-drive tools from scratch as 1/4-drive tools and giving them the same model numbers as their 9/32-drive tools (i.e., M- series), randomly, indiscriminately, as a practice, for major production is the 30's is not a concept I am prepared to subscribe to without seeing them. If you want to change the consensus and conventional wisdom on that topic, perhaps you should gather some photos of all the tools you think make that case and vet the idea here or on collectingsnapon.com.

EDIT: That's the thing about having a bunch of tools and a CW-bucking theory - it's not really worth anything if you're the only one who has them and "knows" it! Good luck.

...I would speculate snapon simply machined down an m3.

I would agree. Actually, I already speculated it in post #12.

 

[Oldtuleguy]

Here are the sockets in 37 industrial catalog.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I'm not sure if that was to me, or you were just following through on your previous post, OTG. I was aware of the GM- series tools in the 37 Industrial catalog. I've never found one in the wild, either.

 

[SOCKETS]

That's the thing about having a bunch of tools and a CW-bucking theory - it's not really worth anything if you're the only one who has them and "knows" it! Good luck.

I don’t really think i have to show my collection to make it WORTH something. Knowing i have them is good enough for me. If anyone has 1/4” T handles and would like to share with me, i would appreciate it.



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[Oldtuleguy]

Just curious to see some better pics. Nice collection!

 

[Private Lugnutz]

I don’t really think i have to show my collection to make it WORTH something. Knowing i have them is good enough for me.

Sorry. I wasn't clear. I was referring to your statements about Snap-on 1/4-drive tools beyond the known series (GM-, TM-,,,,) and the idea I thought you seemed to be implying that Snap-on was making M- series 1/4-drive tools as a matter of course. This isn't the first time you've been here. You seem to enjoy posting at least some of your collection and letting people know you have them and how many etc., so I was just recommending that instead of ones-twosy, you gather those particular tools and your findings/theory and make your case. What good is a theory like that if you're the only one who knows it? Are you aware of collectingsnapon.com? Seems tailor-made for you. If not, that's up to you. Just a suggestion. Good luck.

 

[SOCKETS]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. I was referring to your statements about Snap-on 1/4-drive tools beyond the known series (GM-, TM-,,,,) and the idea I thought you seemed to be implying that Snap-on was making M- series 1/4-drive tools as a matter of course. This isn't the first time you've been here. You seem to enjoy posting at least some of your collection and letting people know you have them and how many etc., so I was just recommending that instead of ones-twosy, you gather those particular tools and your findings/theory and make your case. What good is a theory like that if you're the only one who knows it? Are you aware of collectingsnapon.com? Seems tailor-made for you. If not, that's up to you. Just a suggestion. Good luck.

i understand, but not trying to make a case, i all ready know snapon made 1/4” M tools (custom or not) from what i own. Just looking for pictures on 1/4” M3 T handles, even if they where custom orders or not. gathering info for my personal knowledge and if someone else can benefit from this thread im glad.




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[tooljunkie4]

Sorry. I wasn't clear. I was referring to your statements about Snap-on 1/4-drive tools beyond the known series (GM-, TM-,,,,) and the idea I thought you seemed to be implying that Snap-on was making M- series 1/4-drive tools as a matter of course. This isn't the first time you've been here. You seem to enjoy posting at least some of your collection and letting people know you have them and how many etc., so I was just recommending that instead of ones-twosy, you gather those particular tools and your findings/theory and make your case. What good is a theory like that if you're the only one who knows it? Are you aware of collectingsnapon.com? Seems tailor-made for you. If not, that's up to you. Just a suggestion. Good luck.

The first post in this thread was a request for photos of users' 1/4"-drive T-handles. Do you have any 1/4"-drive T-handles that you would be willing to share clear photos of?

The theory may not be fully fleshed-out at this point, but the ask is simple and the goal straight-forward.

How about you, snapmom? Your experience and insight are assets.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

The first post in this thread was a request for photos of users' 1/4"-drive T-handles.

I read it. I also read the part about examples not being ground down - included by the OP because the OP is well aware that the T handle is typically known as a 9/32-drive tool, and I also saw the photo the OP included showing the M-3 model number, which Snap-on used for 9/32-drive tools, as Snapmom alluded to, prompting my post and the ensuing discussion of their origin as a 9/32-drive tool. The whole point, the significance, the impact of the tool the OP has shown is the fact that they look like 9/32-drive T handles, have the 9/32-drive model number, but have been machined - apparently by the factory - with 1/4-drive studs. The idea that it wasn't going to come up in discussion is nil, and the idea that it shouldn't come up in discussion, on a discussion board, is less than nil.

If I had one, of course I would post it. As I'm sure OTG or Snapmom or any other collector here would. The OP's thought that some collectors might have one without realizing it (precisely because they appear to have been made from 9/32-drive stock, as discussed), because they may have not physically put their M-3 marked T handle in one of their M-x marked 9/32-drive sockets, is a great one. It's possible.

 

[Private Lugnutz]

i understand, but not trying to make a case, i all ready know snapon made 1/4” M tools (custom or not) from what i own. Just looking for pictures on 1/4” M3 T handles, even if they where custom orders or not. gathering info for my personal knowledge and if someone else can benefit from this thread im glad.

Understood, S. Perhaps case was the wrong word. A presentation of all your tools in this category (1/4-drive tools with M- series numbers) whether here or the collectingsnapon.com forum or both, might benefit your own stated goal of increasing your personal knowledge about them and add something to the collective Snap-on knowledge base. Mutually. It might even help answer the question of whether they were one-offs or custom or not or what. Maybe. But I won't bring it up again.

Good luck on the M-3 1/4 quest.

 

[Farmer J.]

Not the case when you have a massive collection to distinguish the differences.

'It's not the guy with the most guns that wins, but the ones who are the most accurate shots'.

 

[SOCKETS]

A presentation of all your tools in this category (1/4-drive tools with M- series numbers) whether here or the collectingsnapon.com

a fan of collectingsnapon site to view pictures and different editors personal take on tools on what they believe. All though many of the run years are off for all tool categories.



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[MattVette89]

The only 1/4" t-handle I ever had was a clearly "home-made" modified 9/32" version.

My father was a machinist and journeyman toolmaker. He custom made hand tools that looked like factory pieces. Very easy to do for any competent machinist with the equipment available. My theory is that a worker (or two) took some premade stock and turned them into 1/4" handles for personal use. I think if Snap-on did it as a corporate test they would have overstruck the markings just to avoid confusion. Someone making it for himself wouldn't necessarily have done that. Just my $.02.

 

[SOCKETS]

The only 1/4" t-handle I ever had was a clearly "home-made" modified 9/32" version.



My father was a machinist and journeyman toolmaker. He custom made hand tools that looked like factory pieces. Very easy to do for any competent machinist with the equipment available. My theory is that a worker (or two) took some premade stock and turned them into 1/4" handles for personal use. I think if Snap-on did it as a corporate test they would have overstruck the markings just to avoid confusion. Someone making it for himself wouldn't necessarily have done that. Just my $.02.

As previously stated on this thread. i own other 1/4” M tools. Do You have any 1/4” pictures to share with me?
modied in your view or not


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[Private Lugnutz]

All though many of the run years are off for all tool categories.

We have all noticed a few errors or discrepancies over the years. It is the best brand-specific site on the web, though. Nothing like it (nearly 80 years of catalogs, all linked by part numbers, and searchable) exists for any other brand, not even Craftsman, sadly. It has to be emphasized, though, that it is a collective effort (Snapmom, for example, was a major contributor), that Frank never touted it as the bible, and he's always been open to suggestions.

A couple years ago I made a respectful, constructively critical recommendation on the forum there about the statements the site makes about wartime warranties and production, with the stated goal of vetting my findings with Frank and the group, and Frank was very accommodating. After many respected collectors chimed in, he actually asked me to re-write those sections (which I am mortified to admit that I have not yet done!).

If you're sitting on evidence of a production run that nobody in the community knows about, others would like to hear. There and/or here. It's not unique. Every brand has experienced this as the hobby has grown online. Someone finds something that challenges the CW here or on AA and together we figure it out and change the CW. Plomb Pebble production, once thought to be a postwar thing, is now known as starting in 1944 for some tools, to name just one example.

But if that kind of thing is not your cup o' tea, I understand. No problem.

 

[SOCKETS]

We have all noticed a few errors or discrepancies over the years. It is the best brand-specific site on the web, though. Nothing like it (nearly 80 years of catalogs, all linked by part numbers, and searchable) exists for any other brand, not even Craftsman, sadly. It has to be emphasized, though, that it is a collective effort (Snapmom, for example, was a major contributor), that Frank never touted it as the bible, and he's always been open to suggestions.

A couple years ago I made a respectful, constructively critical recommendation on the forum there about the statements the site makes about wartime warranties and production, with the stated goal of vetting my findings with Frank and the group, and Frank was very accommodating. After many respected collectors chimed in, he actually asked me to re-write those sections (which I am mortified to admit that I have not yet done!).

If you're sitting on evidence of a production run that nobody in the community knows about, others would like to hear. There and/or here. It's not unique. Every brand has experienced this as the hobby has grown online. Someone finds something that challenges the CW here or on AA and together we figure it out and change the CW. Plomb Pebble production, once thought to be a postwar thing, is now known as starting in 1944 for some tools, to name just one example.

But if that kind of thing is not your cup o' tea, I understand. No problem.

im sure you’ve noticed i have previously shared on here. If it benefits anyone, im glad. im a huge Snap-On Collector, But i am also not a huge blogger. i’d rather spend my time collecting. i like sharing every once in a while. Im not going to be here Sharing every day of my life. If that makes it not my cup of tea in your view. then your cup of tea is not mine.


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[Private Lugnutz]

Agreed. That's literally what I meant by cup of tea. "To each his own," in other words. No offense anywhere in that. No pressure to do what you don't want to do. The conventional wisdom on Snap-on 30's production continuing as it is without the input of your M-series tools with 1/4-drive action isn't going to kill anyone.

 

[MattVette89]

As previously stated on this thread. i own other 1/4” M tools. Do You have any 1/4” pictures to share with me?
modied in your view or not

Sorry, I sold that t-handle several years ago so no photos. I run across m-tools occasionally in my sales but not too frequently, I stick to more modern stuff.

Also, I did read the entire thread including the reference to your other M 1/4" tools. That doesn't mean my theory is invalid.

 

[tooljunkie4]

Sorry, I sold that t-handle several years ago so no photos. I run across m-tools occasionally in my sales but not too frequently, I stick to more modern stuff.

Also, I did read the entire thread including the reference to your other M 1/4" tools. That doesn't mean my theory is invalid.

If an end user - however skilled - were to machine a 9/32" drive spud down to 1/4", I expect they would be have to leave the face containing the detent ball completely alone. If that were the case, the modified drive spud would no longer be centered on the shaft of the tool, and be rendered VERY easy to identify as having been modified.

If, on the other hand, the tool were either forged or ground to spec before installation of the detent, it would be more reasonable to expect the drive spud to be properly centered.

 

[snapmom]

Most of the snap on modified tools have a added model number, like Sxxx or Nxxx. There are lots of owner modified tools out there some do a nice job and some are just butchered

 

[MattVette89]

If an end user - however skilled - were to machine a 9/32" drive spud down to 1/4", I expect they would be have to leave the face containing the detent ball completely alone. If that were the case, the modified drive spud would no longer be centered on the shaft of the tool, and be rendered VERY easy to identify as having been modified.

If, on the other hand, the tool were either forged or ground to spec before installation of the detent, it would be more reasonable to expect the drive spud to be properly centered.

Very easy to do, even for an amateur tool user.

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6991500

 

[SOCKETS]

Very easy to do, even for an amateur tool user.



https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=6991500

i would like to see a video of “M” sockets, specialty sockets, adapters and extensions ( from male and female side) getting sized down from 9/32 to exact 1/4”.
That’ll be cool.


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