100@ generator plug identification & recommendations?

[Fallon]

My solar power system was just commissioned the other day & as part of the install, I had them install the proper gear for a generator disconnect. So I now have a 400@ disconnect sitting there (225@ service & apparently they only make 200@ & 400@ disconnect boxes). The solar guys haven't put a socket in yet & I think are choking on the $700 plugs they have seen, realizing they might have under estimated things given the price of the plug & the 400@ box. Their responsibility as per the contract ends after the properly terminate disconnect, so I'll be responsible for building my own cable between the wall & generator.

My generator is a really old Winco 35/20PT33 (20kw, 35kw surge single or 3 phase). I'm only planning on using the 120/240v stuff, aothough it may end up used as a phase converter for the shop if I find a nice 3 phase lathe, mill or something. It's PTO powered, so has no engine to maintain, but I do have to hook it up to the PTO shaft on my tractor to make it work. It's an emergency generator, not a stand by. By which I mean I'll hitch it up & haul it over to power the house only when needed after the power has been out for a while & there is a need.

Anybody familiar with these style of connectors on the generator?

It's got a standard NEMA L14-50 with 50@ breakers on the other side, but that's only half the output of the generator.

So I either need to figure out what those odd single plug ports are & where I can find some, or re-wire it to something a bit more standard. I'm also curious if there are any cheaper options out there i can point my solar electricians to.

 

[simpler=better]

Oh shoot, I forgot the name of those. They're the same used on welders. I doubt they're legit to be used in this kind of setup-you could easily mismatch them and burn stuff up in the house.

Maybe find used Hubbell 100A connectors?

 

[Stuart in MN]

The modern version of those is called a Camlock: http://www.gencable.com/Products/Connectors/CamLoks/ I don't know if they will be compatible with your generator, though.

edit: I believe Crouse-Hinds is the original supplier, but other companies sell equivalent devices.

 

[dave*99]

Those are pin plug connectors. Winco has some descriptions on their website. Winco also has/had a conversion kit to another plug type, but I bet that is expensive too.

 

[matt_i]

Tweco also makes camlocks for the welding industry. Not sure what kind of insulative rating they have relative to voltage but certainly up to the ampacity.

A couple questions on the PTO generator...how do you control the cyclic speed of the generator, obviously its related to the hand throttle position and relies on the governor for load control, but how do you know you have the proper throttle opening?

Also, what happens when you are only drawing from a single phase, what happens to the lack of power flow on the 3rd leg...or how does it handle the imbalance?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Looks like its a 120v/240v Delta 4-wire. Be careful with the stinger leg(yellow plug). Its 208v to neutral/ground.

U will need to also run a 4TH wire for the EGC/ground.

One thing u need to check is whether the neutral(white) is bonded to the chassis(EGC). If it is u need to remove this bond. If its not youre good to go. U should only have neutral and ground bonded in one location.

What size breaker does it have on that end?

 

[Rookie2]

I would not use those pin connectors. You can install a 120/240 receptacle to match your SO cord whip to your transfer panel or hard wire a SO cord directly to the breaker on the generator. Those PTO generators don't care if you use one ,two or three phases at a time.

IMO

 

[ishiboo]

The cheap way people are using now seems to be Anderson connectors. I really prefer a 100A pin & sleeve plug for that though.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I would not use those pin connectors. You can install a 120/240 receptacle to match your SO cord whip to your transfer panel or hard wire a SO cord directly to the breaker on the generator. Those PTO generators don't care if you use one ,two or three phases at a time.

IMO

I wouldnt either.

I would use a pin and sleeve connector such as the leviton 4100R12W:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=4100R12W&section=40078&minisite=10251

 

[Fallon]

Diesel engines, at least in tractors have a robust governor intrinsically have a very good governor. You set the hand throttle & it will stick really close to the set RPM. And the RPM = Hz, a voltage regulator takes care of proper voltage coming out of the generator. I'm looking for a good cheap weather proof frequency meter, but in the mean time my cheap indoor Kill-A-Watt is pretty accurate. So my plan is to just temporarily plug in the Kill-A-Watt to set the throttle for now.

I have reached out to Winco to get the manual & to see if they have a reasonably priced recommended frequency meter. Really their "modern" PTO generators don't look any different than my 20 odd year old one, other than the plug types. Guts are about the same as well.

I haven't checked on the neutral to ground bonding yet, but that's on my list when I crack it open for a health check before I start using it. Given it's age I figure it could really use a good going through & possibly updating some of the components, such as those sockets there on the side.

Those 3 breakers you can see in the photo are all tied together & each rated at 100@. On the far side you can't see in the photo, there is a L14-50 with a 2 pole 50@ breaker.

Daym, all this 100@ stuff is insanely expensive. A pair of those 4100R12W's look like they will run a grand, which is more than I paid for that generator. Leaving a coiled up cable permanently attached to the side of the house would look a little tacky, but given the price of those connectors might be an option. Coil it up nicely on a hose hanger or something. I suppose I could leave the SO attached to the generator as well & just make sure I don't end up with a suicide cable.

I've used those Anderson's for some RV battery disconnects & love the small 10-20@ power poles for automotive & mobile HAM radio type stuff. Have to see if they have anything appropriate for weatherproof 220v 100@.

 

[Rookie2]

I doubt you'll find a waterproof freq. meter (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEP002A-MEP...860441?hash=item3aad231419:g:fncAAOSwNSxVTSj8)

A lot of trailer mounted generators use a lug type terminal strip inside of the weather proof cabinet . You could add a whip to the winco and add a Nema 3 cabinet to the building with a lug type terminal strip. Pin and sleeve are expensive and require back shells for the cable end not for home use unless you find a used set at a local electric shop.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bussmann-US...756641?hash=item418dac58e1:g:Mw4AAOSwg3FUpsFT

 

[Norcal]

I wouldnt either.

I would use a pin and sleeve connector such as the leviton 4100R12W:

http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ProductDetail.jsp?partnumber=4100R12W&section=40078&minisite=10251

The Leviton pin & sleeve devices are of European origin, which means they are a goofy design, Hubbell pin & sleeve are more installer friendly.

 

[madosta]

Aren't those called carnival or circus connectors? I see them all the time at carnivals. Can't seem to find the exact pin connections or terminology that would allow you to make up a whip to attach to that generator though. Any help? I was wanting to make a whip for this a while ago with an old farm generator.

Friends have a 50kw PTO generator with the Anderson connector. The Hubbell HBL4100B12W or the like is pretty common with telco backups.

 

[madosta]

Here's an interesting whip...

and nay nay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-HUBBELL...TOR-4100C12W-100A-125V-250V-3P4W/181735262841

 

[madosta]

The anderson whip I was referring to is just hard wired into the panel and left there all the time. It's a farm so ya know... Can you just use a standard 50amp outlet since they are pretty common or do you plan on drawing that much more while on generator power?

A lot of PTO generators have a few lights on the front of them that are UP or DOWN on the RPMs to show correct phasing.

 

[ishiboo]

I've used those Anderson's for some RV battery disconnects & love the small 10-20@ power poles for automotive & mobile HAM radio type stuff. Have to see if they have anything appropriate for weatherproof 220v 100@.

The Anderson connectors are not weatherproof. But neither is a PTO generator.

 

[nadogail]

The least expensive frequency meter I can think of is a combination of an analog electric clock with a second hand and a stopwatch.

If in one measured minute the clock indicates 60 seconds have passed, your alternator has produced 60 HZ power; if the clock runs slow your frequency is low, if the clock runs fast ease off on the throttle.

Analog clocks can be found at yard sales.

You want weather proof? Build a box with a window to mount it in.

You have not shared your location, but if there are industrial salvage or surplus dealers in your area, you may find something you can make work without busting your budget.

 

[ishiboo]

Wow, that sounds like a pain in the ***.

For my PTO generator (Katolight 1800RPM 20kw) I purchased two LCD frequency meters from eBay. $6.50 with free shipping:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291348895224?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I also purchased two 100A ammeters, which show amps/volts/watts... one for each 120v leg. I didn't find a decent one that would work for two.

 

[Fallon]

The anderson whip I was referring to is just hard wired into the panel and left there all the time. It's a farm so ya know... Can you just use a standard 50amp outlet since they are pretty common or do you plan on drawing that much more while on generator power?

A lot of PTO generators have a few lights on the front of them that are UP or DOWN on the RPMs to show correct phasing.

The generator has a gauge on the front, but I believe it's voltage, not frequency. I've found some under $30 frequency & voltage meters for generators, but they are cheap china stuff & likely not weather proof. I could just put a cover over them though I suppose.

I may just fold & use the L14-50 plug as those are cheap, but it just rubs me the wrong way that I'd be leaving half the capacity unused. $200 vs $1,000 or so may make that worth it. though. I've used L14-50's in my shop for my welder outlets as they are the most flexible & that's what generators often have, if I need to go portable.

 

[nadogail]

Congratulations, I had no idea they were available that cheaply.

You have just proven that my advice is worth what you pay for it.

 

[Fallon]

Congratulations, I had no idea they were available that cheaply.

You have just proven that my advice is worth what you pay for it.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...+Frequency+Combo+Meter+For+Generator&_sacat=0

& a pile of other similar ones.

They are cheap, but I'm dubious on the good & shipping from China usually isn't fast, so it might not even meet the standard pick 2 good/fast/cheap criteria. I have yet to find one that indicates any kind of weatherproofness under $100.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Diesel engines, at least in tractors have a robust governor intrinsically have a very good governor. You set the hand throttle & it will stick really close to the set RPM. And the RPM = Hz, a voltage regulator takes care of proper voltage coming out of the generator. I'm looking for a good cheap weather proof frequency meter, but in the mean time my cheap indoor Kill-A-Watt is pretty accurate. So my plan is to just temporarily plug in the Kill-A-Watt to set the throttle for now.

I have reached out to Winco to get the manual & to see if they have a reasonably priced recommended frequency meter. Really their "modern" PTO generators don't look any different than my 20 odd year old one, other than the plug types. Guts are about the same as well.

I haven't checked on the neutral to ground bonding yet, but that's on my list when I crack it open for a health check before I start using it. Given it's age I figure it could really use a good going through & possibly updating some of the components, such as those sockets there on the side.

Those 3 breakers you can see in the photo are all tied together & each rated at 100@. On the far side you can't see in the photo, there is a L14-50 with a 2 pole 50@ breaker.

Daym, all this 100@ stuff is insanely expensive. A pair of those 4100R12W's look like they will run a grand, which is more than I paid for that generator. Leaving a coiled up cable permanently attached to the side of the house would look a little tacky, but given the price of those connectors might be an option. Coil it up nicely on a hose hanger or something. I suppose I could leave the SO attached to the generator as well & just make sure I don't end up with a suicide cable.

I've used those Anderson's for some RV battery disconnects & love the small 10-20@ power poles for automotive & mobile HAM radio type stuff. Have to see if they have anything appropriate for weatherproof 220v 100@.

So its a 100a 3 phase 240v breaker.

Your other option is to hardwire it but that can be a PITA for a portable generator.

 

[Slowgsr]

I might have missed something but 50a 240v isn't enough for emergency power?

 

[simpler=better]

I might have missed something but 50a 240v isn't enough for emergency power?

If you have the generator capacity might as well use it.


Maybe hard wire it using solid bus bars and crimped lugs on each line? You'd have to manually wire it each time but that sounds a bit safer than messing with the welder camlocks.

 

[Fallon]

I might have missed something but 50a 240v isn't enough for emergency power?

Probably, but I'd like to have access to all the juice if need be. Couple feet of snow forecast for early next week. If things get ugly & we loose power before I get things sorted out properly I'll just throw the disconnect switch & make a L14-50 to L14-50 suicide cable out of my welders extension cable & back feed my welding outlet in the shop. Not ideal, but safe enough for me & any lineman.

Still want to get it done right & not spend a grand though.

 

[Mr. T]

100@ generator plug identification & recommendations?

Appleton Powertite pin and sleeve plugs and receptacles are a decent priced high quality option if you can find them.

Compatible with Arktite pin and sleeve for less than half the price.

 

[fastjohnny]

http://nooutage.com/bp10101.htm

175A Anderson connectors.

I made up a patch cord like the above referenced site to give me full power for my PTO 25kw/50kw single phase generator. It works excellent. The Kill-O-Watt meter is cheap and easy, the frequency is spot on. I have also purchased a couple ebay LED combo meters but have yet to wire them in.

 

[simpler=better]

http://nooutage.com/bp10101.htm

175A Anderson connectors.

I made up a patch cord like the above referenced site to give me full power for my PTO 25kw/50kw single phase generator. It works excellent. The Kill-O-Watt meter is cheap and easy, the frequency is spot on. I have also purchased a couple ebay LED combo meters but have yet to wire them in.

2x on the frequency meter. That's cheap & essential when setting your engine speed.

 

[Fallon]

Finally heard from the solar guys, they have a Hubble HUBWD M4100R12 they are planning on installing at the end of this week or early next week. Looks like a nice 100@ marine grade socket. Hopefully I can find the male (or is that female) side of the connection cheap.

Debating weather to use that for both ends of the cable or not I figure I should probably update the generator to use a more modern plug type. Debating on whether to use the marine one on both sides or get an Anderson for the generator side.

It looks like Winco is putting Anderson plugs on all their new generators. http://www.powerwerx.com/anderson-powerpoles/powerpole-sets/ Just need to get around to calling Winco & figure out which plug size as I may as well try to match their standard size if I don't use that marine one on both sides.

There are some pre-made cables if I go the marine route, but the shortest I saw was 50', which is longer than I need & probably hideously expensive.

 

[nadogail]

Regarding " probably hideously expensive ", there is no probably about it; marine grade is always expensive.

 

[Fallon]

Finally called up Winco & they said they are using the 175@ Anderson plugs on all their PTO generators these days. Dug up some really old scanned hand written info on their site. One of the notes at the bottom was they were going to stop using the single pin plug type (like I have) in 1980 & start using the Anderson's.