100yr-old copper pipes

[Learninggal]

Hey guys

Ours is a 100 year old home with 100 year-old copper pipes and we know some neighbors house already replaced all piping in their homes since copper pipes last about a century. Every time we are back from vacation, water seems to clog up in our bathtub during shower. Drano seems to do the job at times, but not every time and then we have to use a snake to pull out mostly black-colored sediments (not hair). Changing all piping is a very large expensive project. A local licensed plumber came by is very experienced in our general area and he says that as long as the bathroom is operational on a daily basis, there will be no issues, but he has seen people returning from vacation and a lot of sedimentation develops. Would this be a good idea? I will take my Orbit garden timer and attach it to where the shower head goes usually. I will set up a 12 hour timer to come on just for a minute and obviously close the shower door. Obviously, the shower knob will stay on for two weeks but the orbit timer will only allow water flow for a minute every 12 hours. I can also have a neighbor stop by at the exact time when the timer is supposed to come on and take a Quick Look

Thanks

 

[Firebrick43]

Hey guys

Ours is a 100 year old home with 100 year-old copper pipes and we know some neighbors house already replaced all piping in their homes since copper pipes last about a century. Every time we are back from vacation, water seems to clog up in our bathtub during shower. Drano seems to do the job at times, but not every time and then we have to use a snake to pull out mostly black-colored sediments (not hair). Changing all piping is a very large expensive project. A local licensed plumber came by is very experienced in our general area and he says that as long as the bathroom is operational on a daily basis, there will be no issues, but he has seen people returning from vacation and a lot of sedimentation develops. Would this be a good idea? I will take my Orbit garden timer and attach it to where the shower head goes usually. I will set up a 12 hour timer to come on just for a minute and obviously close the shower door. Obviously, the shower knob will stay on for two weeks but the orbit timer will only allow water flow for a minute every 12 hours. I can also have a neighbor stop by at the exact time when the timer is supposed to come on and take a Quick Look

Thanks

That’s a very bad idea. If things go awry the resulting cost of water damage will be much more than a repipe of the house.

Also, you are on barrowed time anyways. Eventually there is going to have a pipe leak. Everyone has got their money out of the piping, it’s time to bite the bullet and do what you already know in the back of your mind needs done.

 

[BrandonV]

Unless you plan on moving and being unable to recoup the re-pipe cost in the sale, it's time to no longer put off the inevitable with a replacement.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Unless you plan on moving and being unable to recoup the re-pipe cost in the sale, it's time to no longer put off the inevitable with a replacement.

Even then when a home inspection is completed the cost of a replumb will be a point of contention and may shorten up the list of potential buyers.

 

[Doubled33]

You mention copper pipe and drain. Is your house plumbed with copper DWV (domestic waste and vent) or is your drain pipe cast iron?

 

[BrandonV]

Even then when a home inspection is completed the cost of a replumb will be a point of contention and may shorten up the list of potential buyers.

For sure. It's probably pretty highly dependent on the housing market in your area. In a large metropolitan area like Phoenix, you could need new roofing, plumbing, and electrical and it wouldn't scratch the asking price at all and the house will still sell.

 

[ng8264723]

I do not agree that copper will build sediment. That makes no sense. Don’t have a whole house filter.? I have 110 year old brass pipe. Once I added the whole house filter my aerator cleaning decreased immediately

 

[Learninggal]

Any house will sell in NY where I am and by the time someone gets around to ask for an inspection, another party has already committed or even wired a deposit amount so I’m not really fearful of a sale. Almost none of the money I put in the house will make a difference since the new owner will likely rip out this historic structure and put something much bigger in place.. hence I am looking for ways to fix this problem without spending 30-40k as it only occurs when we are out for one or two weeks

It’s a cast iron drain pipe

 

[racecougar]

Why replace the supply side when it sounds like the issue is the drain?

 

[geneg]

Any house will sell in NY where I am and by the time someone gets around to ask for an inspection, another party has already committed or even wired a deposit amount so I’m not really fearful of a sale. Almost none of the money I put in the house will make a difference since the new owner will likely rip out this historic structure and put something much bigger in place.. hence I am looking for ways to fix this problem without spending 30-40k as it only occurs when we are out for one or two weeks

It’s a cast iron drain pipe

Sounds like your problem has nothing to do with copper pipe/tube system. The cast iron drain/waste/vent piping is rusting from the inside. This causes your blockage problem. It won't be long until a horizontal section rusts thru to the outside. Using caustic drain "cleaners" can accelerate this. The horizontal drain from the tub to the waste riser allows material to sit on the bottom. The black goo that you are snaking out is iron rust, bacteria, soap scum, etc.

Since you're reading this website- you have more technical knowledge than the general population. Go to a local hardware store or second choice a big box store with a diagram of the layout from the tub drain to the waste main. Buy enought 1-1/2 or 2 " pvc pipe to make the connection length. Get a long sweep y for under the tub drain & put a cleanout plug in the back end. Buy whatever combination of 45 & 90 long elbows to make the connection. Street els are first choice. Buy multiple combinations just in case. The local hardware guy will give better advice than the big box employee. Get a fernco to make the connection to the cast iron lateral. Whatever you do- don't try to disassemble a cast iron joint. It will continue to break away until you get to the city sewer. Use a sawsall, pipe cutter or abrasive wheel to cut off the 1-1/2 or 2 " lateral about 4-6" from the connection to the larger pipe. The "fernco" or flexable rubber or hubless adapted will connect the pvc to the cast iron.

A project this small wouldn't require a plumbing license or a permit here, BUT your situation may be different.

You still may have to replace more of the system at a later date, but this can be done in a weekend. Good luck

 

[Packard V8]

FWIW, the 100-year guesstimate is just that. The variables - original quality of pipe and of installation, water softeners, chemicals, soaps, soils, grounding, dissimilar metals; all those are factors in the equation.

I just saw a 100-year-old copper supply line, from the main to the home, excavated recently and it was still in mint condition and was not replaced.

then we have to use a snake to pull out mostly black-colored sediments (not hair).

FWIW, the black goop described is unlikely to be "sediment" but more likely to be soap/skin/oil residue which solidifies when not kept wet

jack vines

 

[The Cobbler]

It sounds to me that your drains are partially clogged and probably just need a good snake to clean them out .
potable water doesn't magically get sediment or anything in it to block a 1-1/2 pipe.

 

[PopcornSutton]

There is a good possibility that the tail piece arms to the cast iron are galvanized pipe. They are terrible for rusting closed.

 

[pcmeiners]

"since copper pipes last about a century."

Is it copper or brass?, makes a big difference. Brass is prone to easily breaking at the threads. Copper or brass has no effect on cast iron, none what so ever. Sediment in copper or brass could be from the city pipes or if a well manganese is black. Flushing your soil piping with an automatic timer will not do anything . The old cast lasts over a 100 years, the new cast iron pipe is ****, had parts of it only last 20 years, go PVC

 

[ybnormal]

That’s a very bad idea. If things go awry the resulting cost of water damage will be much more than a repipe of the house.

Also, you are on barrowed time anyways. Eventually there is going to have a pipe leak. Everyone has got their money out of the piping, it’s time to bite the bullet and do what you already know in the back of your mind needs done.

yep, I had this happen 23 yrs ago. swimming pool needed water, we were leaving for a week so I set the timer for a thousand gallons. a timer provided by the LOCAL GOVERNMENT I should add. came back a week later....why do I hear water dripping outside? ..... 40,000 thousand gallons later...... the timer got stuck on the VERY LAST TICK.
city disclaimed any responsibility even though they provided them to customers. this also happened during wasterwater averaging season. the most they would do is not have it count as part of the average sewer calculation

 

[Metal-Marc]

Would this be a good idea? I will take my Orbit garden timer and attach it to where the shower head goes usually. I will set up a 12 hour timer to come on just for a minute and obviously close the shower door. Obviously, the shower knob will stay on for two weeks but the orbit timer will only allow water flow for a minute every 12 hours.

What could possibly go wrong with this hare-brained idea?

 

[LOW1]

IMHO there is no reason to replace your pipes just because they are old.

Get someone to clean all of your drain lines.

 

[shibertus]

Every time we are back from vacation, water seems to clog up in our bathtub during shower.

It’s a cast iron drain pipe

it only occurs when we are out for one or two weeks

Does your tub have a drum trap? They are an old style of trap that hold a large volume of water/debris and are notorious for clogging up. They can be cleaned out by a plumber, or replaced with a modern P-trap.

 

[pbon]

I have a drum trap in my basement under the 135 year old triple soapstone sink. My clogs are usually somewhere in the main line out to the street that is after the drum trap. I take the lid off the drum trap and run a snake down the line once every couple of years when the line backs up and there is smelly water in one or two of those sinks.

 

[LOW1]

Copper is best. It is in the movies!

 

[zendriver]

It it were me (and it was) I'd hire a drain pro come and look at things, before just assuming they are bad and start ripping everything out.

Unless it's falling apart in chunks, I can't imagine cast iron "deteriorating" enough to plug a drain in the span of of a week.

 

[KenC]

My guess is that you have a low spot in the drain that holds a pool of water and 'sludge' that grows is the absence of running water. And, it has nothing at all to do with the copper supply lines.

I know of no conditions where copper will create a situation like that. Copper failure usually shows first a pinhole leaks, between fittings.

I had the same issue in a commercial building that was vacant for over 20 years. I used a power snake almost weekly for years before I finally got the years of growth and rust cleared. Of course that was about a 100ft of 4" cast iron under a basement floor fed from two different bath locations with multiple fixtures. Lots of wye and direction changes.

 

[carlaisle]

You need to identify the cause of the problem you are experiencing before pursuing any remedial action. Did this problem recently develop or has it been getting progressively worse for a period of time? Did you change anything before this problem appeared? i.e. did you install a low flow shower head? Is this the only drain that demonstrates this behavior? Have you tested the "sediment" extracted from the blocked drain to determine if it is magnetic? What material are your drain lines? Being a 100 year old home, cast iron is most likely, but you have not lived there for 100 years so unless they are visible there is no way of knowing what may have been changed before you took possession. The size drain originally run from a bathtub could easily be copper, brass, cast iron, lead, or even plain black steel pipe or galvanized depending on who did the work. How far you need to run the snake before the drain opens up tells you the approximate location of the problem.

 

[andyvh1959]

All this discussion has me thinking about the drains in my house. Its a contemporary tri-level built in 73, and I know the sink drains/vents are almost all black pipe. I say almost because I did replace a triple drain/vent section under the kitchen, which is over my office area. From there, the drain travels horizontally for about 23' before getting to the sewer stack in the basement. The floor/walkway the drain runs through is frame with 2x12s, so for that 23' run, assuming 1/4" per foot slope means the kitchen drain run drops nearly 6" over the run. After I fixed the kitchen sink drain/vent issues a few years back the kitchen sink and diswasher drain with no issues, no backups, no burps or gurgles. When I installed the new sink back in June I deleted the garbage disposal as I hated the thought of any ground up food products getting forced down that long run.

Back in 2018 when I remodeled the main bath, I installed a large corner tub/shower unit, which hooked up fine to the original drain and vent, along with two new sinks plumbed to the orginal vents. No issues there.

My ex didn't agree with my cautions for using the garbage disposal and was always cramming food stuffs of all sorts down the disposal. Luckily no issues, especially since she's been gone since June 2008.

 

[75gmck25]

I have cast iron drain pipes and, as already mentioned, the issue is long horizontal runs. The pipe is iron, so it rusts inside (looks like stalagmites), and during light usage the rust does not flush out. It also builds up even more junk when there is sediment from kitchen (disposal, etc.) or bathroom fixtures (soap, shampoo, etc.) that remains in the horizontal pipe. I have a kitchen drain pipe that needs snaking about every 3-4 years, and a bathroom drain pipe that needs snaking about every 5-6 years. If you have accessible clean outs it's only about a 1-2 hour job, and not really that hard. Much easier than replacing the drain pipe, unless you are already renovating that room.

Copper supply pipe will develop pinholes wherever it is stressed (improper bends, etc.) or if it has been held in place using the wrong type of metal fitting (iron or steel reacts with the copper). Other than that it should be very durable and reliable.

 

[Firebrick43]

Copper supply pipe will develop pinholes wherever it is stressed (improper bends, etc.) or if it has been held in place using the wrong type of metal fitting (iron or steel reacts with the copper). Other than that it should be very durable and reliable.

Copper pipe pinholes are almost always improper choice of pipe or contamination of the inside with flux/carbon/or acidic water.

Most pinholes is from choosing to use M copper instead of L. Many AHJ don't allow M but some do.

The second most common copper pipe failure is using to small of pipe for the volume of water needed. This causes high velocities, especially at 90 degree elbows. This high velocity causes erosion at certain points past the elbow removing the copper oxides that protect the pipe. Proper sizing to keep velocity under 5 fps almost always stops it.

Another issue with flow erosion is to much solder or not deburring the pipes correctly causing turbulence and therefore erosion.









I have yet to see a failure due to "stressed(improper bends)"

 

[EagleGSU]

I'd replace all of the old piping in the house personally.

I just redid all of my drain pipes, and replaced all the water lines in the 1959 home I just moved into a few months ago. It was all rusted out cast iron drain pipes. And it drained like ****, and no amount of quick fixes would work anymore.

Also had to do all new electrical. Nothing was grounded, and it was all old clothed wiring, probably a fire hazard.

 

[JunkBonds]

i am surprised your 100 year old house has copper pipes. All the old houses I own, which is many, had galvanized iron pipes.

My personal home built in 1886 with indoor plumbing installed in 1916 was galvanized iron. I replaced them with pex and abs

 

[MikeC55]

My aunt’s house was built in 1956 (in CT) and has BX with cloth wrap over what appears to be some kind of plastic on the wires. Seems kind of advanced for 1956?

 

[The Cobbler]

i am surprised your 100 year old house has copper pipes.

it's not likely original to the house , In my opinion

 

[Firebrick43]

i am surprised your 100 year old house has copper pipes. All the old houses I own, which is many, had galvanized iron pipes.

My personal home built in 1886 with indoor plumbing installed in 1916 was galvanized iron. I replaced them with pex and abs

Copper pipe has been around for 4000 years, it has been found in Egyptian tombs.

The specs for modern copper came out in 1927. Since there were many houses that didn't get indoor plumbing until electrification in the 30's and some places until after the war, Its very possible that copper was installed as the first form of piping a decade or two after a house built a hundred years ago.

 

[Firebrick43]

My aunt’s house was built in 1956 (in CT) and has BX with cloth wrap over what appears to be some kind of plastic on the wires. Seems kind of advanced for 1956?

Modern PVC coating on wires started in 1933. Obviously took a while to replace tarred cloth.

 

[MikeC55]

I had no idea PVC insulation went that far back!

 

[walta]

I think it is foolish to use chemical drain cleaner’s period. If they fail then you are working in a caustic soup. When you have metal drain pipes the chemicals are dissolving your pipes!

I fail to see how replacing the water supply pipes will prevent the drains from clogging. When you have the plumber on speed dial keeping the supply leaks under control only then is it time to replace the supply pipes.

My guess is the tub drain pipe is almost totally clogged and likely has to little slope to self-clean. Has anyone run a camera down the pipe? Has the pipe been cleaned with a pressure washer and jetter head?

I did have problems with my bathroom sink drains getting clogged. The clog was slime growing in and around the pop up stoppers I added some copper to the pop up stopper and that did prevent the clogs but that is a modern problem when everything is plastic then stuff can grow.



Walta

 

[racecougar]

Bets on whether or not the OP ever returns to this thread?