110 and 220 at equipment

[bpr210]

I’m looking for a method to have 110v and 220 v at equipment

The 200amp shop panel is fed from house 400amp main, Panel. The shop panel has a bonded ground on the conduit ring in and has been inspected.

When I wired my shop I pulled 6 gauge ( 3 conductor with ground) 50 amp circuit 50 feet from the shop panel to another wall.
At this location I would like to be able to run a small hand grinders, lathe and a welder.

This lathe has a 220v motor and will pull less than 15 amps. The welder should pull less than 30.

Would this panel be acceptable for this use?
https://www.lowes.com/pd/GE-3-Circuit-3-Space-100-Amp-Main-Breaker-Load-Center/999926136

I have been reading the concerns about the shock path on neutral vs ground line and I’m trying to understand the concerns when providing a path back to main panel.

I don’t fully understand all the concerns when splitting off a 110 circuit from a welder plug or rv/stove plug when both circuits have grounds attached.

A similar method is used when pulling a run to a 220v electric stove. The 220v line is used for heating elements an 110v is used for lights in stove. In the case of a stove the 110v is on a 50amp line! Am I missing something?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Cant do what you want via a plug and pig tail.

Need a breaker panel.

The stove is a listed appliance and is rated for such use.

The shock path youre referring to has to do with having a bonded neutral in the subpanel. If neutral is isolated then no potential for neutral return current on grounded metallic pathways.

BTW 110 and 220 are long gone in the US.

 

[bpr210]

Thanks for your reply-

Let me correct myself and call them 120 and 240ac

Have you seen a small breaker panel I can use that will accomplish what I'm trying to do?

I will have a 50 amp line feeding this panel. I would like to have a 30amp 240vac and a 15-20amp 120vac at this location.

What would really be nice is a 3-4 breaker box with a external lever disconnect switch for all.

 

[finn]

Your big box store will have a selection of small panels, both with and without a service disconnect, that you can install at the end of your new wire run to use as a sub panel. Get one with a main service disconnect breaker and use that to kill power at your new remote box. Alternately, they sell fused disconnects you can install inline. I just installed the fused disconnect as part of the wiring for my lift.

Don’t bond the ground on the new sub panel.

 

[sberry]

There is an additional fuse in the stove for the 120 or the wire and parts sized and designed to handle short circuit interruption from 50A. There are 6 and 8 space panels at the store just for this. They are cheap, don't cost much more than other kinds of disconnect schemes and its really the right way to do it. You do not need an external lever disconnect, there is a breaker for each piece in a main lug panel, use the feed breaker should you ever need to shut the whole panel off which is very rare.
These small panels are designed just for this, resist the temptation to start adding features not needed. I did use a couple panels with mains as subs, I had them but they have never been switched since installed. There isn't a box of this nature with an external lever with good reason. Most of those were old equipment disconnects and generally long gone especially in home/hobby type shops.
I think a HOM 6 space is about 20$ and a QO around 30, maybe less? I had some in stock so its been a while since I bought one.

At this location I would like to be able to run a small hand grinders, lathe and a welder.

This is a really good way to do it. Saves a lot of branch runs. Not so sensitive at 50 ft but my shop is 80 wide and tall, 120 ft of wire before it evenb gets to an outlet and it lets all the small circuits start from a big wire as well as leaving means for welding circuit without additional wire. I actually have 5 additional panels due to this and increases available breaker spaces.

 

[sberry]

I dont much more power for most work than a small garage but have well north of 100 circuits, 120 or so. Have a 100A panel with 9 watts load current, 1 with nothing, 1 with a couple small fans at the moment.

 

[Norcal]

Cheaping out on the panel size now is penny wise & pound foolish, a 12-16 space loadcenter will leave room for expansion in the future without having to use crappy twin or quad breakers.

 

[sberry]

The 8 space is nice for that. I am not sure how much more it is than a 6 but since there is a mention of 240 they do go fast. I have a full 20 space and my office panel is full but,,,,,,,,,,,,, truth be known there are several circuits not doing anything and don't do much to the point that there are several places 2, 3, easily could be combined,,, and they still wouldn't do anything.
This comes from lots of "planning" and future proofing. I have done a lot, the reason I caution about it is due to the fact very little of it has paid out over the last 35 years and usually needs a different design or has a change of plans.
I just replaces an 8 space which was really too small when I putit in with a 20 or 24 I got on sale. Due to the fact I was not thrifty when I put the new one in I used a couple extra in a bit of a custom design and more future ****. It looks empty now,,, ha and its nice I got a dozen more spaces I will never need.
There was really no real downside to this change, it worked fine and the upgrade was part of a remodel, no real "extra" work that amounted to anything significant and the time frame allowed for new design that having some time ended up better than if I would have done it differently 20+ years ago when I did it with a free panel when I was broke.

 

[sberry]

That GE in the link is specialty for RV, its 160$ and on top of that not right for you.

 

[bpr210]

Sberry- Thanks for your suggestions. I will go look for a small panel to place at the equipment for my needs. What you have described will help.

The Local Box stores in my area don't carry much other than the large 100 amp and larger panels. I'll hunt down a electrical supply shop to see if they have a better selection of 3-4 fuse variety.

 

[sberry]

No, you are still regressing here, a 100A panel is what you want, 6 or 8 spaces-Circuit-6-Space-100-Amp-Main-Lug-Load-Center They have these on the shelf of every major store. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-16-Circuit-8-Space-100-Amp-Main-Lug-Load-Center/50088162 8 space is 2x the cost of6 depending on brand or series, I didn't look to see if these are QO or HOM https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-12-Circuit-6-Space-100-Amp-Main-Lug-Load-Center/3127883

 

[Norcal]

I have used this one, even replacing the 100A main w/ a 50A. Copper bus is a plus also.

https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-20...p-Main-Breaker-Load-Center-Value-Pack/3129843

 

[bpr210]

Thanks Guys!

I will go check or order.

Either of these look like they will fit my needs. My current 200 amp panel (Siemens)uses the QP breakers vs the QO on the Square D

 

[sberry]

That is a deal, especially considering the cost of adding a main. There is something I do consider when going in to this on a forum. The way you do it, the way I do it may be different than the way a diy should or could do it. I even consider this with panel brand to some extent. You are familiar with all the parts, can find it, can change it. Most asking here are already confused.
I do elaborate some that's for sure. There may be better products but if I was starting today would likely use HOM due to the cost and the stuff is now everywhere and at all 3 big box stores, hard to miss it. Obviously there could be compelling reasons to do something else including some personal preference but it doesn't mean much to a diy home brew type runs a 20A welder and hand grinder with a couple of lights.
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-12-Circuit-6-Space-100-Amp-Main-Lug-Load-Center/3134331
This model has 2 more spaces. But its closer to the one Norcal posted in cost, makes that one a bit more appealing with 10 spaces. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-16-Circuit-8-Space-100-Amp-Main-Lug-Load-Center/50088162

 

[sberry]

Thanks Guys!

I will go check or order.

Either of these look like they will fit my needs. My current 200 amp panel (Siemens)uses the QP breakers vs the QO on the Square D

The fact that you already have Siemens is another plus for the one Norcal posted. They likely have it in stock. You need to add a ground bar kit if it doesn't have one.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have been reading the concerns about the shock path on neutral vs ground line and I’m trying to understand the concerns when providing a path back to main panel.

I don’t fully understand all the concerns when splitting off a 110 circuit from a welder plug or rv/stove plug when both circuits have grounds attached.

A similar method is used when pulling a run to a 220v electric stove. The 220v line is used for heating elements an 110v is used for lights in stove. In the case of a stove the 110v is on a 50amp line! Am I missing something?

Welder plugs do NOT always have a neutral. Older stoves and dryer also do NOT have a neutral.

If you have a neutral, you are still going to need an appropriately sized fuse/breaker to split off a 120V receptacle.

 

[KenC]

Welder plugs do NOT always have a neutral. Older stoves and dryer also do NOT have a neutral.

If you have a neutral, you are still going to need an appropriately sized fuse/breaker to split off a 120V receptacle.

I think you'll find they do not have a ground. the 3rd wire is a neutral, that is also used as a ground. Loss of the neutral path could result in a 'hot' appliance frame.
that is the reason the the move to 4 wire stove and dryer connections.

 

[Norcal]

Welder plugs do NOT always have a neutral. Older stoves and dryer also do NOT have a neutral.

If you have a neutral, you are still going to need an appropriately sized fuse/breaker to split off a 120V receptacle.

Saying that older ranges do not have a neutral is erroneous information it was formerly allowed to ground the frames of the appliance to the neutral.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Welder plugs do NOT always have a neutral. Older stoves and dryer also do NOT have a neutral.

If you have a neutral, you are still going to need an appropriately sized fuse/breaker to split off a 120V receptacle.

Older stoves and dryers most certainly DID have a neutral. What they didnt have was a ground. The neutral was allowed to be bonded to the frame to provide the fault current pathway. This was dangerous so 4-wire stove, dryer and subpanel feeders were mandated, albeit at different code cycles.

 

[lakelandcat]

Cheaping out on the panel size now is penny wise & pound foolish, a 12-16 space loadcenter will leave room for expansion in the future without having to use crappy twin or quad breakers.

spot on, better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.