110 Outlets not working

[DocPhilMD]

No, he didn't test it under an actual load. He only tested it with a DVOM.

Now I get to teach you something for once!

I have a hunch the hot or neutral is in series with another load. This won't show up with a DVOM unless the voltage Is checked with a load attached.

I can do this but I think happy2rv nailed it. It is sensing something upstream. And those three way switches are a hot mess. It has to be the culprit. Everything else checks out and I'm sure 3 gfcis aren't bad

 

[checkthisout]

I can do this but I think happy2rv nailed it. It is sensing something upstream. And those three way switches are a hot mess. It has to be the culprit. Everything else checks out and I'm sure 3 gfcis aren't bad

Yeah. I think it has a series load upstream that an actual load on outlet might help ferret out.

That's why I want you to put an actual outlet load (like a incandescent lamp) on there and test it and then see what happens when you switch stuff on and off upstream. Check the voltage with an actual load on it as well.

I bet one of your lights is a series load on either the neutral or hot side.

You can try to eliminate the neutral by hooking up the ground wire to the neutral line instead of the load side....for testing purposes of course.

 

[checkthisout]

A series load is the only thing that will allow your DVOM to see normal voltage on the outlet (you're using the A/C setting to measure the voltage right?) which will change instantaneously as soon as the circuit is completed such as by the circuitry in the GFCI.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Yeah. I think it has a series load upstream that an actual load on outlet might help ferret out.

That's why I want you to put an actual outlet load (like a incandescent lamp) on there and test it and then see what happens when you switch stuff on and off upstream. Check the voltage with an actual load on it as well.

I bet one of your lights is a series load on either the neutral or hot side.

You can try to eliminate the neutral by hooking up the ground wire to the neutral line instead of the load side....for testing purposes of course.

I see what you are saying.

So I am going to plug in a lamp, disconnect load wires and measure voltage and switch the switches off an on upstream correct?

I have a wild idea. What if I just swap the GFCI in the bathroom with the regular outlet in the garage. Any chance that will "fix" the issue? Maybe the GFCI is not working because so many damn wires are running into it?

 

[DocPhilMD]

So I have another question.

1)when I check with the load attached will it be with the two line wires jumpered together? Or am I just checking the one romex that is coming directly from the breaker?

2)Can you tell me if just swapping out the GFCI to the garage or outdoor outlet will fix this?

 

[DocPhilMD]

I don't blame you!

"when the GFCI is off" ... "doesn't work when the breaker is off".

I understand a circuit not working when the breaker is off. But I don't understand what you mean by "when the GFCI is off". Do you mean when you've unhooked the GFCI and taken it out of the circuit?

Let me recap what I understand ...

1. Remove the GFCI from the circuit, wire the line hot & neutral to the load hot & neutral wires, respectively, (effectively "jumping" the GFCI) the downstream outlets work. Correct?

2. Put the GFCI back into the circuit with the line hot & neutral wires hooked to the line lugs and the load hot & neutral wires hooked to the load lugs and ... (a) you can't reset the GFCI to get the little green light to come on and (b) the downstream outlets obviously don't work.

When you're in situation #2 above, have you tried the GFCI outlet tester? Does anything light up? I presume that nothing would light up. Let us know what happens.

I wonder if the line and load wires have been transposed; i.e. you're hooking the incoming line wires (that are hot from the breaker) to the line side. When you're in stuation #2 above, what happens when you use the DMM to check the voltage? Check the voltage both on the line lugs and the load lugs. If you get 120 volts on the load lugs, the GFCI is wired backwards.

Being a regular guy and not an electrician, I don't know what impact having the line and load hots hooked up right on the GFCI and the neutrals transposed.

With the GFCI out of the circuit and bare wires hanging there, you can put the breaker on confirm which hot is the line (using either a test light or the DMM).



Please expound on "nothing is burnt is fried, but T=this one confused the **** out of me ... ". I'm having trouble visualizing what you were presented with when you pulled the things apart.



Doing that obviously would NOT be code. One option you have to replace all the outlets with GFCI outlets. Hook both the line and load wires to the line lugs only, disregard the load lugs. Each outlet then is responsible for protecting itself independent of the other outlets. This way you can have one outlet trip its GFCI, and it won't kill anything other outlet on the same circuit. I hope this is code and correct, I've done it in my house (two bathrooms and the garage on the same GFCI, now three GFCI's independent of each other). If this is wrong, I'm sure the properly trained electricians will gently let know how wrong I am.

Keep plugging away.

I meant "nothing is burnt or fried". Meaning all the wires looked good.

But now that happy2rv mentioned that neutrals from different circuits tied together can do it, I'm sure that is the problem

Having independent GFCIs at each outlet won't work because the problem is upstream.

 

[DocPhilMD]

I'm close guys!!!! Don't bail on me now!! Happy2rv and Checkthisout have reinvigorated me!!!!!

 

[checkthisout]

I see what you are saying.

So I am going to plug in a lamp, disconnect load wires and measure voltage and switch the switches off an on upstream correct?

All you're going to do is take a regular outlet, hook it up to incoming power in the box (only using wires from the 1 piece of Romex) and then plug a lamp into it and turn it on.

If the lamp comes on, you're going to see what the voltage is with the lamp running.

 

[checkthisout]

I have a wild idea. What if I just swap the GFCI in the bathroom with the regular outlet in the garage. Any chance that will "fix" the issue? Maybe the GFCI is not working because so many damn wires are running into it?

You only measured voltage at the outlets, you didn't plug an actual load in to see if they worked.

 

[checkthisout]

But now that happy2rv mentioned that neutrals from different circuits tied together can do it, I'm sure that is the problem

Neutrals from different circuits shouldn't matter because all neutrals just run parralell back to the breaker panel.

It's ok to share neutrals on MWBC's upstream of a GFCI

A shared neutral downstream of the GFCI on a MWBC will cause it to trip but you don't have anything hooked up to the downstream side.

Keep it simple.

Put an actual load on a regular outlet in the box and see what happens.

 

[DocPhilMD]

All you're going to do is take a regular outlet, hook it up to incoming power in the box (only using wires from the 1 piece of Romex) and then plug a lamp into it and turn it on.

If the lamp comes on, you're going to see what the voltage is with the lamp running.

Ok. I did this and the lamp came on and the voltage is 120.

The only other thing that worked when I did this was the light switch in the bathroom. This must come before the GFCI then. Since nothing was hooked to load then nothing else worked.

The other stuff that is upstream or in that accessory circuit is the 2 hallway switches (one is a double) and the outlet. I think it has to be the double switch near the front door. I drew a diagram of it.

Can anyone see if this is the issue?

 

[DocPhilMD]

another pic

 

[DocPhilMD]

Here's another piece of helpful information.

When I attach the GFCI with the line only from the breaker and NOTHING else, it still won't reset.

The only other item that works at this point is the switch in the bathroom and the vent fan. I unplugged the vent fan and it still won't reset.

Here is a pic of the switch. I'm lost.

It must be significant that this is the only thing that works and the GFCI won't reset though?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Sorry didnt get back to this sooner. Been busy with quotes and life.

The main issue u have is that the GFCI wont reset with just the supply hooked up to the line side with 120v at the GFCI.

Something just doesnt make sense here. And youre sure that youre hooking up the single hot and neutral to the screws labeled "line" on the GFCI?

The load side usually has a sticker wrapped around the outlet indicating what the terminals are.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Sorry didnt get back to this sooner. Been busy with quotes and life.

The main issue u have is that the GFCI wont reset with just the supply hooked up to the line side with 120v at the GFCI.

Something just doesnt make sense here. And youre sure that youre hooking up the single hot and neutral to the screws labeled "line" on the GFCI?

The load side usually has a sticker wrapped around the outlet indicating what the terminals are.

I'm sure. I'm 100% sure. When I hook up the romex from the breaker to the GFCI and nothing else it won't reset. When I do the same with a standard plug it lights up a lamp

The only thing that works when the GFCI is hooked up is the light switch and vent fan in the same bathroom. The picture of that switch is above. I'm lost

 

[theoldwizard1]

Here's another piece of helpful information.

When I attach the GFCI with the line only from the breaker and NOTHING else, it still won't reset.

Sorry to be picky, but that pictures does not show exactly were the wire coming out of the box go to. It appears that there are 3 black wires leading to something above the box or does the one on the right connect to the white wires under the right red and white wire nut ?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm sure. I'm 100% sure. When I hook up the romex from the breaker to the GFCI and nothing else it won't reset. When I do the same with a standard plug it lights up a lamp

The only thing that works when the GFCI is hooked up is the light switch and vent fan in the same bathroom. The picture of that switch is above. I'm lost

Have u tried the GFCI in another outlet location?

Remove the oulet(turn the power off first of course) install the GFCI only hooking up the line wires and turn the power back on.

Then reset the GFCI.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Bingo. I think this is it. I think you are absolutely right. I did everything everyone said above yesterday. I isolated the single romex from the breaker and the GFCI still wouldn't reset. So it is sensing something upstream. The voltage from the breaker is good. So it must be in that accessory circuit with the switches. And I'm positive neutrals from two circuits are wired together. I will draw a detailed diagram of it tonight. Yes!! Thank you!

Anything tied together before the gfi shouldnt be affected by the gfi,As long as you have 120 going to the line side of gfi reading through the hot and neutral thats whats important.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

All you're going to do is take a regular outlet, hook it up to incoming power in the box (only using wires from the 1 piece of Romex) and then plug a lamp into it and turn it on.

If the lamp comes on, you're going to see what the voltage is with the lamp running.

I can plug a dozen lights into outlets on a circuit,as long as it doesnt exceed the ampacity of the circuit it will not affect anything.
As long as all of your connections are good from point a to point b the voltage will remain the same feeding the gfi.

 

[checkthisout]

I can plug a dozen lights into outlets on a circuit,as long as it doesnt exceed the ampacity of the circuit it will not affect anything.
As long as all of your connections are good from point a to point b the voltage will remain the same feeding the gfi.

Yes but in your case you're thinking of parallel loads.

My thinking was that there was a load in SERIES I.E. the black wire is hot going in and then leaves and hooks back into a hot or black wire instead of a neutral.

This would allow you to measure 120 VOLTS downstream if no load was placed downstream of the circuit.

The catch would be that it would stop working whenever there wasn't something in the outlet.

With the wiring mess the OP has, I'm not dismissing any possibilities, especially not a hidden load hooked up somewhere in series but it appears my final guess wasn't the problem.

 

[checkthisout]

Ok. I did this and the lamp came on and the voltage is 120.

The only other thing that worked when I did this was the light switch in the bathroom. This must come before the GFCI then. Since nothing was hooked to load then nothing else worked.

The other stuff that is upstream or in that accessory circuit is the 2 hallway switches (one is a double) and the outlet. I think it has to be the double switch near the front door. I drew a diagram of it.

Can anyone see if this is the issue?

Ok, so you plugged in the lamp and then measured voltage at the outlet with the lamp running and got 120 volts, correct?

1) Do what Wylies said and try the (a) GFCI somewhere else on a known good circuit (like I told you to do 3 days ago. ) and see what you get.

 

[checkthisout]

By the way, what did you do to resolve the 6 Volts, 106 Volt and 60 Volt problem?

Totally forgot about that post!

And with the light bulb running, don't forget to check for voltage between neutral and ground.

 

[checkthisout]

****, I just thought of something and had a DUH moment.

When you are hooking the wires up to the GFIC did you verify that the black is hot and the white is neutral?

The lamp doesn't care but the GFCI will. Did you buy an outlet tester? Hook that regular outlet back up and plug it in and see if the neutral and hot are reversed. As in the white is hot and the black is neutral.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Ok so I took the GFCI and put it in a good plug and it DOESN'T WORK!!!!

Are you kidding me?!? This was the second one I got! Could it be a bad box?

Could something I'm doing be frying them?

Tomorrow I will get a new GFCI and test in a good plug first. I will also hook back up that regular outlet and test voltage between everything and put the plug tester in.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

****, I just thought of something and had a DUH moment.

When you are hooking the wires up to the GFIC did you verify that the black is hot and the white is neutral?

The lamp doesn't care but the GFCI will. Did you buy an outlet tester? Hook that regular outlet back up and plug it in and see if the neutral and hot are reversed. As in the white is hot and the black is neutral.

I think he verified that a few pages back when he tested hot to ground.

 

[checkthisout]

I think he verified that a few pages back when he tested hot to ground.

Maybe. I'm lost now.

 

[checkthisout]

Wylies, if you scroll back and look at the pic inside his panel, what is the larger gauge wire on the left for?

I see the normal 2 hots, neutral and ground but the large gauge wire on the left wrapped in gray tape is for what???

 

[happy2rv]

Here's another piece of helpful information.

When I attach the GFCI with the line only from the breaker and NOTHING else, it still won't reset.

The only other item that works at this point is the switch in the bathroom and the vent fan. I unplugged the vent fan and it still won't reset.

Here is a pic of the switch. I'm lost.

It must be significant that this is the only thing that works and the GFCI won't reset though?

If you have disconnected everything else and truly have only the wire from the breaker panel hooked up to GFCI, how is the light working? Either you haven't got the wire from the breaker panel isolated (it could be that the wire direct from the breaker doesn't go directly to this box but to the upstream light first, in which case you can't isolate it) , you haven't disconnected it from the other upstream circuits, or you have 2 circuits tied together somewhere. But if you had 2 circuits tied together you would still have voltage and things upstream working when you switch off only one breaker.

When you try to reset the GFCI, does anything happen at all? Does it attempt to reset and then trip again immediately or does it not even attempt to reset? I think I would try one or more of your existing GFCIs in another location. I seriously doubt that all 3 are bad.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Wylies, if you scroll back and look at the pic inside his panel, what is the larger gauge wire on the left for?

I see the normal 2 hots, neutral and ground but the large gauge wire on the left wrapped in gray tape is for what???

I dont see a gray wire. Are u talking about the large wire going to the neutral bar on the left that has white tape on it for about 6 inches?

Its probably a feeder neutral for another panel. We cant see the rest of the panel to see the 2 hots.

And this is a main service panel so there is no EGC feeding the panel. The green taped EGC/ground u see probably goes with the above mentioned neutral.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Yes I think you are right happy. The breaker line goes to the switch in the bathroom then the GFCI.

I tried this one in another location and it didn't work

It doesn't even try to reset. It just pushes in

 

[DocPhilMD]

So all this data I thought I was accumulating could potentially be junk.

I took the GFCI downstairs to an outlet attached to a 15 amp breaker. I tested the outlet and it works. A device plugged in worked and the voltage was good.

I disconnected the wires, tested which were the lines and attached those to line. The GFCI wouldn't reset. I went ahead and just attached a couple of the outgoing wires to load and it wouldn't reset. It did the same thing it does every time and will simply push in. I triple checked the attachments and everything is where it is supposed to be. Line in line and load in load and white and black where they should be.

So I guess I'm going back to HD today to get another outlet from a different box. I tried the original outlet in there as well and it wouldn't reset.

So things I know right now.

1)The GFCI may have been bad all along but it certainly won't work now.

2)The light switch and vent fan in the bathroom are the only things in the circuit before the GFCI.

3)If I delete the GFCI in the bathroom, the 3 plugs that initially wouldn't work, will now work.

4)When I ohmed the wires downstream from the GFCI there was no sound.

5)All outlets and switches in the circuit seem clean. No burnt or frayed wires.



So what's my move today? Get a new GFCI and be sure to test it in another outlet first before I do anything to confirm that it works? Then try it in the spot?

Thanks!!!

Phil

 

[DennisB]

I've just read thru this whole thread and one thing that I don't recall being mentioned is that BLACK/HOT wire goes to the GOLD/BRASS colored screw and the WHITE/NEUTRAL wire goes to the WHITE/NICKEL PLATED colored screw. The GFCI won't work if that is not followed.

You may have hooked it up in the basement correct and in the bathroom backwards?

Dennis

 

[theoldwizard1]

I took the GFCI downstairs to an outlet attached to a 15 amp breaker. I tested the outlet and it works. A device plugged in worked and the voltage was good.

So now you have a "know good" GFCI !

I disconnected the wires, tested which were the lines and attached those to line.

Okay you lost me right there !

"... disconnected the wires ..." From the downstairs electrical box ?

" ... tested which were the line ..." Are we now back upstairs in the bathroom ?

"... attached those to line ..." So, in the bathroom, you attached the black wire that you believe comes directly from the breaker to the BRASS "LINE" screw on the same GFCI, CORRECT ?

Did you also attach the white wire that you believe comes directly from the breaker to the SILVER "LINE" screw on the GFCI. The black and white wires should come out of the same sheathing in the back of the box.

The GFCI wouldn't reset. l

Take a non-GFCI receptacle and connect to to the same black/brass white/silver wires in the bathroom electrical box. Plug in a load (light). Does it work ? What is the voltage at the screws ?

 

[DocPhilMD]

I've just read thru this whole thread and one thing that I don't recall being mentioned is that BLACK/HOT wire goes to the GOLD/BRASS colored screw and the WHITE/NEUTRAL wire goes to the WHITE/NICKEL PLATED colored screw. The GFCI won't work if that is not followed.

You may have hooked it up in the basement correct and in the bathroom backwards?

Dennis

Yes, I checked this about 50 times

So now you have a "know good" GFCI !

Okay you lost me right there !

"... disconnected the wires ..." From the downstairs electrical box ?

" ... tested which were the line ..." Are we now back upstairs in the bathroom ?

"... attached those to line ..." So, in the bathroom, you attached the black wire that you believe comes directly from the breaker to the BRASS "LINE" screw on the same GFCI, CORRECT ?

Did you also attach the white wire that you believe comes directly from the breaker to the SILVER "LINE" screw on the GFCI. The black and white wires should come out of the same sheathing in the back of the box.



Take a non-GFCI receptacle and connect to to the same black/brass white/silver wires in the bathroom electrical box. Plug in a load (light). Does it work ? What is the voltage at the screws ?

I think you misread what I posted.

I hooked the GFCI to a good outlet and it didn't work. The GFCI is bad. Either it was bad when I bought it or I junkified it by messing with it. IDK.

 

[checkthisout]

So all this data I thought I was accumulating could potentially be junk.

I took the GFCI downstairs to an outlet attached to a 15 amp breaker. I tested the outlet and it works. A device plugged in worked and the voltage was good.

I disconnected the wires, tested which were the lines and attached those to line. The GFCI wouldn't reset. I went ahead and just attached a couple of the outgoing wires to load and it wouldn't reset. It did the same thing it does every time and will simply push in. I triple checked the attachments and everything is where it is supposed to be. Line in line and load in load and white and black where they should be.

So I guess I'm going back to HD today to get another outlet from a different box. I tried the original outlet in there as well and it wouldn't reset.

So things I know right now.

1)The GFCI may have been bad all along but it certainly won't work now.

2)The light switch and vent fan in the bathroom are the only things in the circuit before the GFCI.

3)If I delete the GFCI in the bathroom, the 3 plugs that initially wouldn't work, will now work.

4)When I ohmed the wires downstream from the GFCI there was no sound.

5)All outlets and switches in the circuit seem clean. No burnt or frayed wires.



So what's my move today? Get a new GFCI and be sure to test it in another outlet first before I do anything to confirm that it works? Then try it in the spot?

Thanks!!!

Phil

Go over to a friend's house, hook up GFCI and see if it will reset.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Go over to a friend's house, hook up GFCI and see if it will reset.

Seriously?

Why wouldn't it work in another completely different circuit that work? that makes zero sense.

I will get a new GFCI and have them test it at the hardware.

 

[theoldwizard1]

I think you misread what I posted.

Mis-interpreted, likely !

"English is an imprecise means of communication". Why does the medical field use terms like medial, lateral, distal, etc when the rest of us say inside, outside, front or back. To be MORE PRECISE !

 

[checkthisout]

Seriously?

Why wouldn't it work in another completely different circuit that work? that makes zero sense.

I will get a new GFCI and have them test it at the hardware.

Something "weird" with your house power.

That's my educated, informed conclusion.

Your power is haunted.

 

[DocPhilMD]

Okay well let me start off by saying that I FIXED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Now, I know many guys on here will say that I'm a newbie and I just had it wired incorrectly but that is not the case.

I triple checked it EVERY time.

So here's what happened.....

I went to home depot after work and picked up yet another GFCI. The first two were from the same box. This time I opened a new box and got one.

I brought it home and checked it at the same outlet that I checked the one yesterday that I knew worked. Sure, enough, it worked. At this point, I was still skeptical

I took it upstairs and hooked it up in the bathroom and BOOM! Everything worked.

So buttoned everything up and hooked it up IDENTICAL to the original and the two new ones I got and EVERYTHING worked.

My conclusion? Two bad GFCIs.

Who believes me?

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

Who believes me?

I do ... for now. Until you post that you move problems.

Question to the real sparkies following this thread: Other than putting a GFCI into a known good circuit and seeing whether it will reset or not ... is there a way to bench test a GFCI?