Yes. It would measure 10A on each leg. **** since we are talking about alternating current it is at different times in the voltage phase. Therefore It is only reading 10A. I know it sounds crazy. I will try to find more refferences. I just can't find them in my Apprenticeship books right now. It's been a few years since I was in class, but I know I am right. I would rather back it up with references however.
110V vs. 220V
- Thread starter thirdmouse
- Start date
GeorgiaHybrid
Well-known member
Yes, it's on the opposite phase but it is still drawing power. It doesn't come from a black hole in space, an aluminum foil pyramid, squirrel cages or a flux capacitor. It comes from the power line feeding the house.
smaller conductors... save money...
switch gear will last longer... save money...
2 pole breakers... more money..
often a 240 motor will run cooler..
power consumption... same....
yes that is true. I know where the power comes from, I've been right under the turbines where it is generated. No foil pyramid, squirrels, or flux capacitor there. However flux, that is a whole different story. Because it is on different phases, it is not additive, therefore it only reads 10A.
Falcon67
Well-known member
220...221, whatever it takes.
pattenp
Well-known member
This is right from Mr. Electricty http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/meters.html
"Does my meter charge me for volts or for watts? Do higher voltage appliances cost more to run? -- Various readers
The electric company charges you for watt-hours, not volts. To figure volts you use the fomula Volts x Amps = Watts. A device that runs on 240V will use half as many amps as an identical device that runs at 120V, so the wattage will be the same -- and so will the cost."
I believe the orginal author mistyped where he said to figure volts he meant watts.
"Does my meter charge me for volts or for watts? Do higher voltage appliances cost more to run? -- Various readers
The electric company charges you for watt-hours, not volts. To figure volts you use the fomula Volts x Amps = Watts. A device that runs on 240V will use half as many amps as an identical device that runs at 120V, so the wattage will be the same -- and so will the cost."
I believe the orginal author mistyped where he said to figure volts he meant watts.
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Jaguar Fan
Well-known member
This is one of those discussions I really enjoy. I always thought I knew the answer (I was with GeorgiaHybrid on this) but Radar1's views and of course the strength of his conviction really makes me wonder.
I'm really looking forward to Radar1's further comments after he looks in his books.
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tcianci
Well-known member
This is absolutely BEAUTIFUL!!!!! Guys being totally dead in the water wrong and arguing their position with all types of twisted engineering. Watts are watts, a Kilowatt is just a thousand watts. Any electrical device consumes POWER, the unit of measure for POWER is WATTS. OHM's law (which is the most basic and easy to understand rule of electrical behaviour) states that POWER is equal to VOLTAGE times CURRENT,end of story, you can't change it. Run a device that is so designed on 220v instead of 110v and it uses HALF the CURRENT, but at TWICE the VOLTAGE. The power the device consumes is the same. There may be some low wattage stuff going in this post, but it ain't in the motors.... To quote Buggs Bunny "What a maroon!"
veno
Well-known member
now that the watt, kilo-watt and amp usage is all figured out....
the advantage other than longer motor life,, is the tool will be stronger in usage... the example of the table saw is a good one, to add to that a 110 saw you can bind the blade and stop the motor when powered with 110.... when you change it over to 220.... DO NOT GET THE BLADE in a BIND.. it will spit the wood at you with fierce velocity.... you will not slow the 220 motor.... they have more torque than a 110 motor...
I have no science to prove it.. the motor in 220 volt snaps to speed, the 110 winds up to speed...
I worked 21 years as a carpenter in millwork and cabinet shops.. and I will tell you a 220 motor will throw things at you with out slowing down or warning.. a 110 motor will give you a small warning, but not be unconditional not as readily as a 220..
the advantage other than longer motor life,, is the tool will be stronger in usage... the example of the table saw is a good one, to add to that a 110 saw you can bind the blade and stop the motor when powered with 110.... when you change it over to 220.... DO NOT GET THE BLADE in a BIND.. it will spit the wood at you with fierce velocity.... you will not slow the 220 motor.... they have more torque than a 110 motor...
I have no science to prove it.. the motor in 220 volt snaps to speed, the 110 winds up to speed...
I worked 21 years as a carpenter in millwork and cabinet shops.. and I will tell you a 220 motor will throw things at you with out slowing down or warning.. a 110 motor will give you a small warning, but not be unconditional not as readily as a 220..
ahjung561009
New member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2010
- Messages
- 2
Anyway,when building new garage, it's better to put at least one 220V dedicated outlet(20 or 30 AMP up to your choice) for future use,even though you do not need now.
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tcianci
Well-known member
Yup, I was thinking DC but generally its close enough for the sake of arguement
If your using too long of an extension cord you will get a big voltage drop and the saw will start slow and eventually blow the cap.
just something else to throw in the mix....
Freejack
Well-known member
now that the watt, kilo-watt and amp usage is all figured out....
the advantage other than longer motor life,, is the tool will be stronger in usage... the example of the table saw is a good one, to add to that a 110 saw you can bind the blade and stop the motor when powered with 110.... when you change it over to 220.... DO NOT GET THE BLADE in a BIND.. it will spit the wood at you with fierce velocity.... you will not slow the 220 motor.... they have more torque than a 110 motor...
I have no science to prove it.. the motor in 220 volt snaps to speed, the 110 winds up to speed...
I worked 21 years as a carpenter in millwork and cabinet shops.. and I will tell you a 220 motor will throw things at you with out slowing down or warning.. a 110 motor will give you a small warning, but not be unconditional not as readily as a 220..
See my earlier post, it's not that the motor is somehow making more power suddenly, it more likely it was no longer on a marginally sized circuit. A horse and a half motor on a standard 15 amp circuit is really pushing that loop, especially if the run is very long.
Jake
desertmike345
New member
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2009
- Messages
- 4
I thought I would give my 2 cents worth. Think of 110 volt as a clock face. You get a surge of power at 12 noon and follow the the second hand back to the 12 noon position again, then you get another surge of power and start all over. With 220 you start at 12 noon with a surge and when you get to 6 pm you get another surge to get you to 12 noon again where you get another surge to keep going. With 3 phrase you start at 12 noon and get another surge at 4 pm then another at 8 pm and then another at 12 noon to start over. This is what creates torque.
comedyman809
Well-known member
why dont we ask westinghouse why didnt he just make all housholds run on DC current?????
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Stuart in MN
Well-known member
Coach James
Well-known member
I'm going to rewire my entire house to run on 240V and cut my energy bill in half. 
Coach
Coach
comedyman809
Well-known member
I'm going to rewire my entire house to run on 240V and cut my energy bill in half.
Coach
you better buy all of your appliances from europe
comedyman809
Well-known member
and westinghouse thrived.
Coach James
Well-known member
1Garageman
Well-known member
Damn, I don't know a whole lot about electricity, but reading all of this stuff has given me a megawatt headache!
I assume this is why my welding skills are so crappy, I'm using too long of a extension cord and losing power. I already read this in my owners manual but figured I could still do some decent welds.I don't have much of a choice due to where my project is located in the garage in relation to my plug in. Any help on this? I'm trying to weld new floor boards in.
Coach James
Well-known member
66, I was having problems getting my 120V MM to go good welds. I could do fine at someone else's shop using different Miller machines then get junk at my house. I put in a new circuit with only one outlet near the front of my garage. I picked up a short, 12g 15 foot extension cord and the difference has been amazing.
Coach
Coach
GeorgiaHybrid
Well-known member
66,
Make an extension cord for the welder. I'm sure the guys on here would let you know the gauge of wire that you should be using if you give them the amp draw of the welder and the length of the extension cord you need. A quick trip to HD, Lowes or the local supply house will fix you up with the supplies and a few minutes work should set you free.
Make an extension cord for the welder. I'm sure the guys on here would let you know the gauge of wire that you should be using if you give them the amp draw of the welder and the length of the extension cord you need. A quick trip to HD, Lowes or the local supply house will fix you up with the supplies and a few minutes work should set you free.
dwilliams35
Well-known member
This has pretty much been beaten to death, but the main advantages I see:
1. voltage drop is much less on higher voltages: you won't be losing power to copper resistance, etc.: thus more available to run the tool. Although, it's pretty much academic at the distances and tools that we're talking about..
2. Heating: at higher amperages that will be seen in the lower voltages, there is more effect from the resistance of the wiring and windings: it manifests itself as heat, just as it will in any resistive heating element.. raise the voltage, you'll lower the amperage, and the heat will go down with it.. heat builds on itself, too: a hotter conductor has higher resistance, which increases the heat, which increases the resistance, etc. etc....
3. Start-ups: when you start a motor, you're basically dealing with locked-rotor amps until rotation actually begins: it'll blow an instantaneous fuse, that's why we use time-delay fuses and inverse-time circuit breakers: it takes a few seconds' worth of the amperage in question to blow the fuse: you'll possibly have six times the full-load amps for a very short time during this period, and that'll make your lights dim, possibly knock out electronics, etc.: a motor that is, let's say 10 amps at 110v and 5 at 220: that's sixty amps startup vs. thirty: that's a significant difference on a 20a residential circuit...
4. available power: the same thing as on that startup, the system is just simply better equipped to deliver that 30 amps than it is that 60 amps: at 60 amps (of course that's a "for sake of argument" figure) your 15-20 amp wiring is heavily taxed and you're losing a lot of power to conductor resistance: it goes away once the motor is rotating, but that's power you could use to get the motor up to speed more quickly, without heating...
5. people don't ask to borrow tools that are rigged for voltages and plug configurations they're not set up for.....
Other than that, it's a wash....
1. voltage drop is much less on higher voltages: you won't be losing power to copper resistance, etc.: thus more available to run the tool. Although, it's pretty much academic at the distances and tools that we're talking about..
2. Heating: at higher amperages that will be seen in the lower voltages, there is more effect from the resistance of the wiring and windings: it manifests itself as heat, just as it will in any resistive heating element.. raise the voltage, you'll lower the amperage, and the heat will go down with it.. heat builds on itself, too: a hotter conductor has higher resistance, which increases the heat, which increases the resistance, etc. etc....
3. Start-ups: when you start a motor, you're basically dealing with locked-rotor amps until rotation actually begins: it'll blow an instantaneous fuse, that's why we use time-delay fuses and inverse-time circuit breakers: it takes a few seconds' worth of the amperage in question to blow the fuse: you'll possibly have six times the full-load amps for a very short time during this period, and that'll make your lights dim, possibly knock out electronics, etc.: a motor that is, let's say 10 amps at 110v and 5 at 220: that's sixty amps startup vs. thirty: that's a significant difference on a 20a residential circuit...
4. available power: the same thing as on that startup, the system is just simply better equipped to deliver that 30 amps than it is that 60 amps: at 60 amps (of course that's a "for sake of argument" figure) your 15-20 amp wiring is heavily taxed and you're losing a lot of power to conductor resistance: it goes away once the motor is rotating, but that's power you could use to get the motor up to speed more quickly, without heating...
5. people don't ask to borrow tools that are rigged for voltages and plug configurations they're not set up for.....
Other than that, it's a wash....
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comedyman809
Well-known member
time to run a new line to your welding area.
make it a dedicated line with 12 wire unless your talken 100's of feet.
what power is the welder, designed for 110v 15a?
Coach James
Well-known member
Hmm, trying to weld boards could be contributing to the problem.
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Just Kidding
Coach
just use the for the species of boards he's working on... pine oak or what ever..
dwilliams35
Well-known member
Yeah, but the insulation on those cords is going to make 'em hard to pull around the shop...I think we could start using 4,000 Volt tools and the electricity would be free, just think how low the amps would be then. The wires could be 24 gauge and the tools would work the same.
comedyman809
Well-known member
I think we could start using 4,000 Volt tools and the electricity would be free, just think how low the amps would be then. The wires could be 24 gauge and the tools would work the same.
you would have to stand about 10 feet away from the arc, wearingthick rubber suits, and a sheild...
the first time you try to hurry up and use without your gloves.....your a french fry.
comedyman809
Well-known member
you ever see the electric company guy working on a pole, and he has on rubber gloves that goes all the way up his arms, he may only be working on 700 volts so 4000 he would probably look like darth vador with a thick rubber shell....
in other words....the higher the voltage, the further we have to be away from it to stay alive..
in other words....the higher the voltage, the further we have to be away from it to stay alive..
comedyman809
Well-known member
ive been taken arc flash training as it is required in my company for the electrical guys...
some nast videos of high voltage flashes. and people dying.
my plant is only 480v which is chump change compared to what the train people work on, and such....
if i had to shut down a panel that was over 700 volts, i would have to be all gowned up in rubber with a shield, and i would have to use a fiberglass pole to turn the disconnect switch.
i know this got a little wordy, but if it saves a life, then so be it.
some nast videos of high voltage flashes. and people dying.
my plant is only 480v which is chump change compared to what the train people work on, and such....
if i had to shut down a panel that was over 700 volts, i would have to be all gowned up in rubber with a shield, and i would have to use a fiberglass pole to turn the disconnect switch.
i know this got a little wordy, but if it saves a life, then so be it.
comedyman809
Well-known member
in other words, you wouldnt be able to have 4000 volts in your house.
dwilliams35
Well-known member
Actually, he's probably working on 19,000v plus up on a pole: the heavier gloves are good for 25Kv+: they're a pain to work in, too thick to really move your fingers easily.. Main thing is that you've just got to keep your head about you: insulating part is pretty easy... Safety glasses and paying real attention to ground points on the truck, etc.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/5T097?Pid=search
Falcon67
Well-known member
You every try to lay a bead on pine?!?! Now red oak, that lays down a nice weld with good penetration....
Grumpy365
Well-known member
Serveral have made the point abouts electricity being sold in Watts, which is coorect, BUT your service is in amps. So If you have 100 Amp Service, you want to run as much as 220 as possibe, to keep from blowing your main, when your bride tries to blow dry her hair while you are welding, and your air compressor is running.
Coach James
Well-known member
A Watt is not a quantity of energy. A Watt is a rate of energy use or production. The power company charging me by the Watt would be like the gas station charging me based on how fast I put gas in my gas tank instead of the number of gallons I put in the tank.
Power companies charge for the number of kilowatt-hours(Joules of energy) you use.
Coach