12V vs 18/20V tools

[davidfite1978]

As some of you have seen in my other post, I am researching which brand of 18/20V tools to buy into (currently down to Milwaukee, DeWalt, and Ryobi). I've only ever had 18V tools. In looking up reviews and videos on current 18/20V tools, I see lots of mentions about 12V tools. I've never used a 12V impact wrench (or any other 12V tool...), so I'm wondering what you guys think about 12 vs 18/20. Is there good reason to have both of the same tool? When do you pick one over the other? I held a DeWalt 12V impact driver at Lowe's last night, and I have to admit, it was smaller than normal, but felt GOOD. I dunno. My wife has trouble using my 18V drill and impact driver because they're too powerful (and she has a case of whiskey throttle...), so maybe it'd be good to have a 12V set for her to use when needed.

Thoughts?

 

[bobcatdan]

It depends on what you are doing. 12v is nice for their size and 18v is nice for power. For a lot of people, the new 12v are all they really need. It is a case of small block vs big block engine.

 

[davidfite1978]

It depends on what you are doing. 12v is nice for their size and 18v is nice for power. For a lot of people, the new 12v are all they really need. It is a case of small block vs big block engine.

I do quite a bit of DIY around the house/shop and helping friends. If money wasn't an option I'm sure it'd be perfect to have both setups, but I'm just wondering if maybe it'd be nice to have a 12V impact driver for doing random 15-minute DIY jobs around the house, and then having the 18V stuff for bigger remodeling jobs.

For instance, I was putting up some paneling the other day and needed to cut out a hole for an outlet. My wife wanted me to use my Ridgid circular saw to plunge into it "just a little bit" to get each side cut. I couldn't get her to understand how that just wouldn't work. Maybe a 12V multi-tool would be a good option for stuff like that.

 

[franzdom]

You definitely need a multi tool now!

 

[theoldwizard1]

I've never used a 12V impact wrench (or any other 12V tool...), so I'm wondering what you guys think about 12 vs 18/20. Is there good reason to have both of the same tool? When do you pick one over the other? I held a DeWalt 12V impact driver at Lowe's last night, and I have to admit, it was smaller than normal, but felt GOOD. I dunno. My wife has trouble using my 18V drill and impact driver because they're too powerful ...

So are you buying the tool for your wife or yourself ?

I can see buying a 12V 3/8" drill, which would be good for the wife, for small "household" jobs, but I would not spend a lot of money on it (I have an old Black & Decker 3/8" drill that works good for small odd jobs). Of course you need to "back it up" with something larger and I always recommend a 1/2" corded drill with TRIPLE gear reduction.

After that, stick with 18/20V tools, unless it is a present for the wife. Then again, perhaps she would prefer a new iron or vacuum cleaner ?

BTW, for the "homeowner", I don't think the brushless tools are worth the extra money.

 

[r22yu]

You should have a look through this thread
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244666

If you're going 12v the only two lines worth looking at are Milwaukee and Bosch with a heavy emphasis on Milwaukee due to the selection of tools. Don't buy the dewalt.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You definitely need a multi tool now!

I general, I am not a fan of cordless tools. My son has a DeWalt set, and the only tool I have ever borrowed is the 1/4" hex impact. He has borrowed my corded reciprocating saw and 4½" grinder several times. I will admit, his little "panel saw" with a carbide blade is nice for cutting a couple of 2x4s.

 

[davidfite1978]

You should have a look through this thread
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=244666

If you're going 12v the only two lines worth looking at are Milwaukee and Bosch with a heavy emphasis on Milwaukee due to the selection of tools. Don't buy the dewalt.

Man those are some nice looking tools. I wonder if DeWalt will expand their 12/20 lineup any more? Milwaukee definitely has the edge in number of tools. I need to make a HD run and get a hands on with a few of these.

So are you buying the tool for your wife or yourself ?

Honestly either... she's always had trouble using what I have, but if I'm going to buy her something then obviously I want it to be something I like too...

 

[franzdom]

I general, I am not a fan of cordless tools. My son has a DeWalt set, and the only tool I have ever borrowed is the 1/4" hex impact. He has borrowed my corded reciprocating saw and 4½" grinder several times. I will admit, his little "panel saw" with a carbide blade is nice for cutting a couple of 2x4s.

Oh, I have a ton of battery now but my multi tool is still corded, and it's a beast 3A Bosch. I love this thing, can't believe I lived so long without it!

 

[cgv69]

Some tools like the impact driver I prefer in 12v due to size and weight. Something like the Milwaukee M12 fuel impact driver has all the power you will ever need. The only real advantage to the 18v version has is run time. That might matter f you are a contractor using the tool all day, everyday but for the average DIY'er, I think the 12v is the way to go for that tool.

But there are other tools where I think 18v is really the only way to go such as a circular saw or reciprocating saw. A 12v Impact wrench might be nice to have in 1/4 or 3/8" but only if you already have a larger 18v (or air driven) impact wrench to go with it.

So I guess it depends on which tools you plan to get and how you plan to use them but this is one of the things I like about the Milwaukee line and there dual voltage chargers. You don't have to limit yourself to one voltage or have multiple chargers.

If I really wanted to (or had to) stick with only one voltage, then I would probably stick with 18v but I like having the option to decide on a per-tool basis which voltage to get for that specific tool based what is available coupled with what I need and how I plan to use it?

 

[bcradio]

So are you buying the tool for your wife or yourself ?

I can see buying a 12V 3/8" drill, which would be good for the wife, for small "household" jobs, but I would not spend a lot of money on it (I have an old Black & Decker 3/8" drill that works good for small odd jobs). Of course you need to "back it up" with something larger and I always recommend a 1/2" corded drill with TRIPLE gear reduction.

After that, stick with 18/20V tools, unless it is a present for the wife. Then again, perhaps she would prefer a new iron or vacuum cleaner ?

BTW, for the "homeowner", I don't think the brushless tools are worth the extra money.

I definitely disagree with just about everything in this statement.

1) Brushless is a MAJOR improvement over brushed cordless tools. This is especially apparent in the 10.8/12v lineup. Now those tools have as much power as many of the previous 18v tools and current 18v compact tools. However they are much smaller, much lighter, and much more portable (which portability is why many buy cordless).

2) To me, it is ridiculous to buy all of these 18v tools when most DIY guys don't need the power (not to mention that 12v brushless now matches this). If you are doing production work daily as a professional, then I can see the need for 18v but otherwise 12v brushless can handle virtually all you throw at it in a smaller/lighter package. Obviously you want to have corded backups of the tools that you need corded power from.

The only exception to this is if you must have corded power when you are far away from an outlet/compressor.

I do agree with the corded drill though

 

[Voi]

My cordless tools consist of an 18V Hitachi Drill/Impact set and some of the Bosch 12V tools (pocket driver, pocket reciprocating saw and oscillating tool).

Based on those alone the two conclusions I can draw for myself are 1) I'd really prefer to have only one battery system and 2) I'd go with 18V tools over 12V.

Not many other Hitachi tools fit the slide in type batteries I have and I'm not crazy about the power or fit of the Bosch tools (although the oscillating tool is sweet) so I haven't added to either.

I imagine if I tried brushless 12V, especially ones that fit my hand better, I might have a different opinion. Also, I believe many of the 18V Milwaukee Fuel tools come with a charger that can handle both 12V and 18V batteries. That would be enough for me to be willing to have both types in my collection.

 

[Monte]

i think 12 volt tools are awesome ! Ideal for small quick jobs...

 

[theoldwizard1]

The only real advantage to the 18v version has is run time.

The real advantage is compatibility with other tools by the same manufacturer.

 

[davidfite1978]

I looked around at Lowe's a bit last night and really liked the feel of the DeWalt 20V Max XR series. They have the XR drill/impact combo for like 279. Not bad. I also really like how the DeWalt sawzall has the multi-directional blade. I haven't been able to confirm if Milwaukee's does that. I did a couple price checks on DeWalt vs Milwaukee and looks like DeWalt was a little cheaper "apples to apples". I dunno.... I go back and forth. At the moment I'm leaning toward DeWalt.

 

[WhiffySpark]

All my stuff at house is ryobi one +

It started when my dewalt saw failed. And it's blossomed.

I'm sure people hate them because of the price. But they've held up fine. Father in law uses them all day professionally

 

[92integra]

diy probably only needs 12 v tools they can take the extra time it take to bust out a breaker bar or whatever.... flat rate not some much you need bolts off 10 minutes ago cant go at something with to little power then have to go grab something else IMHO

 

[IndyGarage]

It always depends on what you are doing with them.

Ryobi 1+ are OK tools, but not professional by any means. They are cheap and might get you by in a homeowner situation. I have a set and I use them at my cabin.

I have three brands of 12v tools, Milwaukee, Makita and Bosch. They are actually 10.8 volt tools. I'd say they are all good and they are compact and easy to carry around. If I had to choose only one it'd probably be Milwaukee, because of the XC batteries and the fuel gauge, but any will get small jobs done.

I have a couple brands of 18 volt tools. The only tool I really like in 18v is an impact driver. 18v is overkill for a drill and underkill for a circular saw or recip saw. I have a set of 14.4 volt Panasonics that are by far the best cordless tools I own.

I have a set of V28 milwaukees that I use for bigger jobs. 28V is enough to do real work with an impact wrench, saws and even a bandsaw.

I've used the Dewault 20V Max tools and they are very compact and very powerful. I like them too.

 

[franzdom]

Hmm...M18 Fuel Hackzaw is pretty darn impressive. Also 18V Fuel Drill is adequate for most jobs. I would hazard a guess that 18V Fuel is generally stronger than 28V stuff.

 

[ADSR]

Fuel m12 gets my vote.

Bought dewalt last time, and never again.

 

[WhiffySpark]

It always depends on what you are doing with them.

Ryobi 1+ are OK tools, but not professional by any means. They are cheap and might get you by in a homeowner situation. I have a set and I use them at my cabin.

I have three brands of 12v tools, Milwaukee, Makita and Bosch. They are actually 10.8 volt tools. I'd say they are all good and they are compact and easy to carry around. If I had to choose only one it'd probably be Milwaukee, because of the XC batteries and the fuel gauge, but any will get small jobs done.

I have a couple brands of 18 volt tools. The only tool I really like in 18v is an impact driver. 18v is overkill for a drill and underkill for a circular saw or recip saw. I have a set of 14.4 volt Panasonics that are by far the best cordless tools I own.

I have a set of V28 milwaukees that I use for bigger jobs. 28V is enough to do real work with an impact wrench, saws and even a bandsaw.

I've used the Dewault 20V Max tools and they are very compact and very powerful. I like them too.

I thought the same thing until I saw him using them everyday. He does hvac work

The little tire/air pump is awesome lol

 

[tonyx]

I own Milwaukee M12 Fuel 1/4 impact, 1/4 drill and 3/8 impact. Having used these over last year and half I can not recommend 18V system. They have the power and stamina for all repair needs around the house including auto repair.

They will not replace heavy duty needs that corded tools provide, like cutting faucet hole on 1inch granite counter top or sawing dimensional lumber, but I think you will be happy with the portability and the power of the M12 tools for everything else.

FYI, the 3/8 impact will take off lugnuts on my cars if they were torqued to spec. It will generate around 130 ft-lb to loosen and quickly spin lugnuts on and off.

 

[davidfite1978]

I had a minor revelation this weekend. To make a long story short, I inherited a Milwaukee case from my Uncle who passed away a couple years ago, and I had forgotten about it until the weekend. I opened it up and there was a charger and M18 battery in it (drill was long gone). The battery still had 3/4 charge in it, and it's not been touched in at least 26 months. It's not enough value to make me completely decide to go with Milwaukee over Dewalt just yet, but I wondered what you guys thought about the radios. Most reviews I've read say the Milwaukee radio is much better than the DeWalt, you just lose the charger. That's not a deal breaker to me, so for 40 bucks cheaper, and since I now have a battery to power it with offline, I wonder if it's worth it to buy the Milwaukee radio, and then if I decide to go with DeWalt for actual tools, I won't regret it.

 

[merbie]

What about makita 12v?


Sent from the sticks

 

[davidfite1978]

I honestly haven't looked much at makita, but last time I went to HD I held just about every battery powered tool they had and the ergonomics of the DeWalt (20 and 12) won hands down. I have a Lowe's close to me so while that's not the most important factor, it's nice to be able to get DeWalt stuff in 5 minutes vs. driving 30 minutes to the nearest HD.

 

[merbie]

the m12 Milwaukee drill and impact is pretty cheap i was surprised

 

[quattroJoe]

What about makita 12v?

A buddy of mine has the Makita 12v drill and impact, brushed version (not sure if they offer brushless now or not.) The weight and feel of the tools are decent, they feel a bit more compact than my M12 stuff (the body and nose are a bit slimmer, overall dimensions about the same though.) The drill works fine, but the impact struggles in situations where my M12 doesn't break a sweat. Also the batteries drain faster than my M12s.

My frame of reference for comparison is the M12 Fuel line though, and the Makitas I'm comparing to them are brushed, so that accounts for some degree of the power and battery life difference. He's used my M12 stuff too, but won't touch my impact anymore after snapping two bolt heads off with it. He says it's too MUCH power, though I've yet to have that happen to me. I think he just expects the same amount of power as his Makita and gets overzealous.

 

[merbie]

i think ill go for an impact driver and 3/8 drill m12 milwaukee somehow its cheaper to buy from the states then it is here

 

[Ign]

I had a minor revelation this weekend. To make a long story short, I inherited a Milwaukee case from my Uncle who passed away a couple years ago, and I had forgotten about it until the weekend. I opened it up and there was a charger and M18 battery in it (drill was long gone). The battery still had 3/4 charge in it, and it's not been touched in at least 26 months. It's not enough value to make me completely decide to go with Milwaukee over Dewalt just yet, but I wondered what you guys thought about the radios. Most reviews I've read say the Milwaukee radio is much better than the DeWalt, you just lose the charger. That's not a deal breaker to me, so for 40 bucks cheaper, and since I now have a battery to power it with offline, I wonder if it's worth it to buy the Milwaukee radio, and then if I decide to go with DeWalt for actual tools, I won't regret it.

The latest M18 radio is a charger & Bluetooth compatible. Runs over $200 tho. Part #2792-20

 

[tarbellb]

General home DIY would benefit greatly from Milwaukees M12 line up. And its getting very cheap for the Non-Fuel stuff.

M18 is for big DIY/pro use in my opinion.

 

[cashishift]

I have Dewalt 12v MAX drill & impact.

I don't use my 18v drill or impact anymore.

 

[r22yu]

I'll say it again. If you go 12v only buy Milwaukee or Bosch. Dewalt has completely neglected their 12v line and half of what Makita makes isn't sold over here in NA. Goto their websites and take a look at how many tools you can get in the Milwaukee or Bosch systems. Don't go dewalt and then regret it

 

[shampoop]

To me it depends on what you care about most.

To me 12V stuff makes sense when you're a professional using it when you don't need the big power or run time, but love the light weight because you have to carry it for 8+ hours EVERY DAY.

18v with the compact batteries makes sense for the homeowner might pay a little more, but you have a lot more power and versatility which is what really matters most.

Just look at this for example

Makita 18v 1/2" drill kit - $99 - Only one battery but charges in 15 minutes. Battery life is more than enough for a homeowner. 3.3 pounds 480 in/lbs torque

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KM2GG0E/?tag=atomicindus08-20

Makita 12v 3/8" drill kit - $99 - 2 batteries but they're much smaller and take 50 minutes to recharge. 2.2 pounds 200 in/lbs torque

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004EYI18G/?tag=atomicindus08-20

 

[davidfite1978]

Not to start a different topic, but I think it fits in with this conversation, how do you guys feel about brushless vs non? If I decide to go with 18/20V tools, then I have to decide brushless or not. Is it worth the extra cost? Or would it be easier to go non and save a few bucks and just fix or replace that tool in 5-10 years when it craps out? Is brushless really THAT good? Or is it still new enough that the jury is still out?

 

[Voi]

Not to start a different topic, but I think it fits in with this conversation, how do you guys feel about brushless vs non? If I decide to go with 18/20V tools, then I have to decide brushless or not. Is it worth the extra cost? Or would it be easier to go non and save a few bucks and just fix or replace that tool in 5-10 years when it craps out? Is brushless really THAT good? Or is it still new enough that the jury is still out?

As a DIY guy who sometimes bridges the gap to professional, I'm having the same consideration(s).

If I were buying today I would buy a combination of 18V and 12V with both brushless and brushed motors. I would go with Milwaukee because as I understand it they dual voltage chargers can handle both voltages and any battery from any Fuel or non-Fuel tool.

Something like a circular saw or full sized reciprocating saw would be 18V and brushless. For tools like an oscillating or hand held rotary tool I think I'd just stick with 12V and brushed (non-Fuel). I just don't use these tools as much but still prefer them to be cordless.

Impact driver would most likely be M12 Fuel. I use an impact a lot and the light weight and (I think) more compact nature of the M12 would be appreciated. But I'd bump to Fuel for a greater torque and run time of the brushless system.

Those are my random thoughts.

 

[bcradio]

For 12v lineup, yes brushless is DEFINITELY worth it. It really makes these tools useful and gives them the power to do many previously only 18v+ tasks.

For 18v tools, then it depends if you need the extra power and runtime or not.

I will say that the main benefits of brushless for most people are the longer battery life and the extra power. The longer tool life is usually not a big deal as most (even pros) seem to wear out the batteries and housing on the tool before the motor gives out. Or they just replace the brushes.

 

[losvre]

i think 12 volt tools are awesome ! Ideal for small quick jobs...

Hey Monte,

May I ask you if both Bosch at the lower end of the photo are impact drivers, brushless and normal?

How the Festool CXS compares to the Bosch 12 V equivalent in terms of power/ usability?

Thank you!

 

[geo_08]

Does Bosch offer a non impact 1/4" driver? Or can you turn the impact off their 1/4?

I need a little 12v for working on bikes and originally was thinking about picking up the dewalt 12v max screw driver, or either the Makita FD01W or FD06R1 kits.

In reference to small size, with Makita's new subcompact line that rules out some of the advantages of the 12v drill/ driver and impact.

 

[geo_08]

As a DIY guy who sometimes bridges the gap to professional, I'm having the same consideration(s).

If I were buying today I would buy a combination of 18V and 12V with both brushless and brushed motors. I would go with Milwaukee because as I understand it they dual voltage chargers can handle both voltages and any battery from any Fuel or non-Fuel tool.

Something like a circular saw or full sized reciprocating saw would be 18V and brushless. For tools like an oscillating or hand held rotary tool I think I'd just stick with 12V and brushed (non-Fuel). I just don't use these tools as much but still prefer them to be cordless.

Impact driver would most likely be M12 Fuel. I use an impact a lot and the light weight and (I think) more compact nature of the M12 would be appreciated. But I'd bump to Fuel for a greater torque and run time of the brushless system.

Those are my random thoughts.

Bosch also offers dual voltage chargers.

 

[geojag]

I have a pretty extensive collection of Milwaukee M12 and M18. The M12 fuel is everything and more that an 18v tool was prior to lithium ion batteries. The M18 equals the performance of many corded tools, if you have sufficient batteries. Grinders and circular saws use batteries quite a bit.

At work, they invested heavily in M28 just prior to the newer M18 coming out. As far as I can tell, the M18 does just as well as the M28, and the tools have been refined. For example, the M18 Fuel circular saw uses a full 7-1/4 inch blade, vs. 6-1/2 on the M28.

At home, I pretty much only use M12, unless I need a heavy impact, grinder, or larger circular saw. At work I pretty much use M18, with the exceptions of M12 ratchet, inspection camera, and lantern. I try to get the fuel version of everything I can, the brushless is a big advantage.

When I first started using 12v, I went with Dewalt because that is what I had at the house. I switched to Milwaukee because of the wide variety of tools they have available and I have not regretted it.