13mm Socket Contact Points

[DavidB]

Here is the latest in my series of "tests" to determine the contact areas of various tools. This test uses 3/8" and 1/2" drive 13mm sockets. The 13mm nuts were obtained from McMaster-Carr. The sockets are a mix of new and used and will be detailed with the pictures below. Some of the sockets are mine but most are from your fellow members on the board.

We'll start off with a list of the numerous contestants as always. I'm showing a top view so you can see the condition of the socket for yourself. I'm also showing a side view. I list condition, number of points, drive size, and who is responsible for the socket being in this test. If there is not a name then it's one of mine. This is what the different words mean before the names:
Donated = Shipped to me without wanting it returned to them.
Loaned = Shipped to me wanting it returned to them.
Funded = Sent money to me

I specify this to be clear on who is responsible for what and on what conditions they sent it to me.

Thanks also go to Steve and Amanda at Koken U.K for donating the Koken sockets for Quattro to send.

1. KS Tools - New - 6pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon



2. Koken - New - 12pt - 3/8" - COO Japan - Donated by Quattrojon



3. Koken - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Japan - Donated by Quattrojon



4. Koken - New - Surface Drive - 3/8" - COO Japan - Donated by Quattrojon



5. Snap On - Used - 6pt - 3/8" - COO USA - Donated by Quattrojon



6. Stahlwille - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Germany - Paid for with funds from Bonneyman and Bolster



7. Hazet - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Germany



8. Teng Tools - New - 6pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon



9. GearWrench - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO China - Funded by Sarel.wagner



10. King **** - New - 12pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon



11. Signet - New - 6pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon



12. Armstrong - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO USA - Donated by Quattrojon



13. Craftsman - Used - 6pt - 3/8" - G1 date code - COO USA



14. Craftsman - New - 12pt - 3/8" - G1 date code - COO USA



15. Bonney - Looks New - 12pt - 3/8" - COO USA - Loaned by Bonneyman



16. S-K Wayne - Used - 6pt - 3/8" - COO USA



17. Kobalt - New - 12pt - 3/8" - COO USA



18. Gedore - New - 6pt - 1/2" - COO Germany - Funded by Sarel.wagner



19. No Name - Looks New - Spline - 3/8" - COO Taiwan - Loaned by Beeslr



20. Grip-Tite - Looks New - ??? - 3/8" - No COO - Loaned by Beeslr



21. Blackhawk - Used - 6pt - 3/8" - COO USA - Loaned by Beeslr



22. Toptul - Looks New - 6pt - 1/2" - No COO - Loaned by Beeslr



23. Craftsman - Used - 12pt - 1/2" - No date code - COO USA - Loaned by Beeslr



24. Craftsman - Looks New - 12pt - 1/2" - No date code - COO USA - Loaned by Beeslr



25. Pittsburgh - Used - 6pt - 1/2" - COO Taiwan - Loaned by Beeslr



26. Metrinch - New - 6 Lobes - 1/2" - No COO - Loaned by Lwlobo



27. Metrinch - New - 12 pt - 1/2" - COO USA - Loaned by Lwlobo

 

[DavidB]

Here are the pictures of the socket's imprints on the nuts. These nuts are Class 8 and from McMaster-Carr. The part number is 90591A161. Dykem layout fluid was used. Each test nut was torqued to 27 ft-lbs using a Harbor Freight torque wrench which is the standrd dry torque of M8 bolts. The test apparatus is a bolt with several nuts on it, a washer, and the test nut. The test apparatus was held by my lovely assistant seen here.

Each test nut was torqued three times with the socket in a different orientation each time. This was done to give an average pattern from each socket. The test nut was then removed by loosening the nut below the washer to avoid any more imprints on the test nuts.

I took multiple shots of all the nuts before settling one the one shown here (with the exception of #26). So, the nuts were handled a little more than I would have liked. Anyways, lets get on with it...

1. KS Tools - New - 6pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon

2. Koken - New - 12pt - 3/8" - COO Japan - Donated by Quattrojon

3. Koken - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Japan - Donated by Quattrojon

4. Koken - New - Surface Drive - 3/8" - COO Japan - Donated by Quattrojon

5. Snap On - Used - 6pt - 3/8" - COO USA - Donated by Quattrojon

6. Stahlwille - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Germany - Paid for with funds from Bonneyman and Bolster

7. Hazet - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Germany

8. Teng Tools - New - 6pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon

9. GearWrench - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO China - Funded by Sarel.wagner

10. King **** - New - 12pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon

11. Signet - New - 6pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon

12. Armstrong - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO USA - Donated by Quattrojon

13. Craftsman - Used - 6pt - 3/8" - G1 date code - COO USA

14. Craftsman - New - 12pt - 3/8" - G1 date code - COO USA

15. Bonney - Looks New - 12pt - 3/8" - COO USA - Loaned by Bonneyman

16. S-K Wayne - Used - 6pt - 3/8" - COO USA

17. Kobalt - New - 12pt - 3/8" - COO USA

18. Gedore - New - 6pt - 1/2" - COO Germany - Funded by Sarel.wagner

19. No Name - Looks New - Spline - 3/8" - COO Taiwan - Loaned by Beeslr

20. Grip-Tite - Looks New - ??? - 3/8" - No COO - Loaned by Beeslr

21. Blackhawk - Used - 6pt - 3/8" - COO USA - Loaned by Beeslr

22. Toptul - Looks New - 6pt - 1/2" - No COO - Loaned by Beeslr

23. Craftsman - Used - 12pt - 1/2" - No date code - COO USA - Loaned by Beeslr

24. Craftsman - Looks New - 12pt - 1/2" - No date code - COO USA - Loaned by Beeslr

25. Pittsburgh - Used - 6pt - 1/2" - COO Taiwan - Loaned by Beeslr

26. Metrinch - New - 6 Lobes - 1/2" - No COO - Loaned by Lwlobo
This one is different because the other angle didn't show the impression well. The inside of this socket is very smooth and didn't mark the surface like the other sockets.

27. Metrinch - New - 12 pt - 1/2" - COO USA - Loaned by Lwlobo

The only one that contacts the edge instead of the face was 21 the Blackhawk socket. As far as I can tell every other socket did not contact directly on the edge though some are close.


Once again, I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions from the pictures.

********Thanks to everyone listed above who contributed!!!! ********
I hope it has been worth your time, effort, and money. If any other sockets make it my way I'll add them on.

This test exceed all the other tests in shear numbers and I had hoped to have it up early but had issues photographing the nuts. At first all were going to look like 26. but as I started looking at them I didn't like how they came out so I went and reshot them all in the format you see here. So, I have a lot more pics that aren't as great if someone desires to see them.

I think that's it for now. If you see any mistakes in the above posts please let me know. I'm sure there are questions so fire away.

Enjoy!

 

[DavidB]

I have no need for all these 13mm sockets so I'm going to pass them on to you, the members of the board! I'm also going to pass them for the same amount I paid for them---free! With the exception of the German tools I'm going to give them away but you pay shipping.

Each of the German sockets I'm going to sell for $5 + shipping. I used money sent from Sarel.wagner, Bonneyman, and Bolster to pay for part of these sockets. I paid the rest...approximately $15. So, I'm splitting it on all of them. (Mod: If I need to move this part let me know)

Contributors are Quattrojon, Sarel.wagner, Bonneyman, Bolster, lwlobo, and Beeslr

RULES:
1. Max limit of two sockets per person.
I'm not going to send them all to one person. If you want one thats fine.
2. Contributors first.
They contributed to the test so they get to choose first. From now until 9 pm CST on Tuesday the 24th any of the contributors may post in this thread which two sockets they want if they do. I'll send them with the sockets I'm sending back (if applicable).
3. After 9pm CST on Tuesday the 24th everyone else may post in this thread which ones they want. No PMs for this part.
4. First come first serve. Sockets are claimed in the order the posts are. If you post after someone else wanting the same socket you'd better edit your post with a new one listed.
5. You pay shipping.
I don't know how much it'll be but I'll send them in a padded envelope through USPS with delivery conformation. I'd guess less than $5. Of course you're welcome to pay for better shipping but that's the default.
6. I reserve the right to change the rules at any time.

I won't be able to ship until after Labor Day since I'll be busy traveling until then. I'll edit this post to reflect which sockets have been claimed. Once all of the sockets are claimed PM me your address. I'd like money sent via Paypal but can do other methods if necessary.

lwlobo, Beeslr, Bonneyman: I'm not planning to send your sockets back until after Labor day either. If you need them sooner PM me and I'll get them to you. lwlobo, and Beeslr my current plan to test your 9/16" sockets soon after labor day and get them in the mail back to you.

I think that's it for now. If you end up getting sockets out of this you should probably PM the responsible party thanking them. Or in the case of Quattrojon buying stuff!

I'm taking the Koken Surface Drive and the Snap-On for myself. Any of the other sockets are either mine or were loaned to me and are not up for giving away.

These are the sockets available to be given away/sold. They are all new except for their use in my testing.

Up for grabs:
2. Koken - New - 12pt - 3/8" - COO Japan - Donated by Quattrojon
9. GearWrench - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO China - Funded by Sarel.wagner
11. Signet - New - 6pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon
12. Armstrong - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO USA - Donated by Quattrojon



Claimed by Sarel.wagner:
3. Koken - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Japan - Donated by Quattrojon
6. Stahlwille - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Germany - Paid for with funds from Bonneyman and Bolster

Claimed by beelsr:
10. King **** - New - 12pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon

Claimed by lwlobo:
7. Hazet - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Germany
18. Gedore - New - 6pt - 1/2" - COO Germany - Funded by Sarel.wagner

Olds394
1. KS Tools - New - 6pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon
8. Teng Tools - New - 6pt - 3/8" - No COO - Donated by Quattrojon


Good Luck!

 

[cheap bastard]

I am amazed at how the Metrinch 6 lobe didn't even scratch the dye. I may pick up a set of metrics for use on motorcycles. All those fasteners are visible and a bit of damage can make a bike look tatty.

 

[I_AM]

Thanks for the post. Its very interesting. I was wondering if you have tried this test with the same socket on 4 or 5 different nuts? (not different brands or style, just different nuts from the same batch) Are the results repeatable?

Thanks again

 

[bchee]

26. Metrinch - New - 6 Lobes - 1/2" - No COO - Loaned by Lwlobo
This one is different because the other angle didn't show the impression well. The inside of this socket is very smooth and didn't mark the surface like the other sockets.

I gots to get some of those metrinch. That's amazing

Either those or the Koken Surface Drive, but my guess is the Metrinch are cheaper.

 

[bonneyman]

The Bonney is looking good!

 

[rockchucker]

That is really cool. Thanks for taking the time to post the results. Thanks to all of the members who contributed to this thread also.

I just installed some Titanium Fasteners on one of my Vehicles and was wondering how bad they would get marred. Nothing too bad but those Metwrinch do look very good for non-marring characteristics. I have installed a plethora of Aluminum A/N Fittings and even using Aluminum Wrenches they still take the Anodizing off of them.

 

[I can fix anything]

Great job! I have a snap on socket #dts20 that i got at a pawn shop that looks like the metrinch one. Is this snap on's version if the same type design?

 

[Monte]

Thanks for testing !!!

 

[bchee]

Great job! I have a snap on socket #dts20 that i got at a pawn shop that looks like the metrinch one. Is this snap on's version if the same type design?

Do you have picts of that Snap on socket?

I didn't know Snap on made a version like that.

 

[Quik208]

Awsome write up! Thanks!!

 

[DavidB]

I've edited post 3 with info on the socket giveaway. Be sure to read it.

 

[I can fix anything]

Do you have picts of that Snap on socket?

I didn't know Snap on made a version like that.

here it is. It is a 5/8" deep 1/2"dr it has a blck finish and says "warning non impact". dts20 usa

 

[DavidB]

here it is. It is a 5/8" deep 1/2"dr it has a blck finish and says "warning non impact". dts20 usa

That looks very close to the Koken Surface drive socket. It has curved
"points" and flat sections that follow the curvature of the outside of the socket. The Metrich one has alternates curves in and out.

 

[hofferwood]

VERY NICE JOB, thank you DavidB,
I enjoy stuff that makes ME think.
Chuck

 

[bchee]

Now I'm curious to know who had the lobe design first, Snap on, Koken, or Metrinch....

 

[bchee]

Did I identify the Metrinch marks correctly, or were there no marks at all?

 

[Bull]

Dumbest question ever: where does one WANT the contact points to be, ideally? Knowing that will help me interpret the data.

I will add this to the stickies folder with the rest of your test threads.

 

[DavidB]

Did I identify the Metrinch marks correctly, or were there no marks at all?

You've got most of them. From left to right: the first and third are marks from the socket. The middle one is either a scratch or from where I moved the socket off the nut.

 

[Bolster]

Outstanding test, DavidB. Thank you so much for doing this. Very enlightening.

I am going to take a pass on the socket giveaway, but thanks all the same. I was more than compensated by the knowledge gained.

Here's to you!

Dumbest question ever: where does one WANT the contact points to be, ideally? Knowing that will help me interpret the data.

That's actually an excellent question. As you move away from the nut's edges, you also lose leverage.

And do you want the contact point wide or narrow? Wouldn't wide be gentler on the nut?

 

[kythri]

I'm not an engineer, but I'd imagine you'd want it as wide as possible, as close to the edge as possible, for maximum torque and maximum distribution.

 

[Bull]

That's actually an excellent question. As you move away from the nut's edges, you also lose leverage.

So, out of all those sockets, the Blackhawk was the "best"? Am I interpreting this correctly?

 

[sarel.wagner]

Hi David,

I,d like these two plese:

3. Koken - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Japan - Donated by Quattrojon
6. Stahlwille - New - 6pt - 3/8" - COO Germany - Paid for with funds from Bonneyman and Bolster

Rgrds

 

[sarel.wagner]

Hi David,

Thank you for the work and all your time, nice to see the results

@Bull, the amount of leverage lost due to where the socket grips the nut relative to the edge is negligible. You want the socket to grip away from the edge to reduce your change of rounding off the nut, so you want some meat between the edge and where you grip it. Same idea with flank drive, metrinch or whatever they care to call it.

Combining Metric and SAE in one socket is something else that you can do, ala Metricnch and some others, if you do not make the socket grip the nut half way between the edges but closer to the edge. 1/2" is close to 13mm but slightly smaller. You still want to get the socket onto a 13mm nut easily so need some clearance.

Testing the 13mm - 1/2" socket on the SAE and Metric nuts will give the same pattern, just closer to the edge on the 1/2" than the 13mm. Hope this helps.

@David, you may want to do one more test to show this....

Rgrds

 

[WHT]

The Hazet and Stahlwille were closer to the edge than I would have guessed.

 

[sarel.wagner]

Some more musings on this Tolerances and design of the drive area and the finish of the insides of the sockets are where it's at, and what you pay for. A good design of the gripping profile will make the socket. The processes applied in its finishing and the tolerances achieved on individual sockets (precision if you like) and the overall tolerances across the various batches (repeatability of process) is where the cost lies. It takes longer to test more to closer tolerances, and also takes longer to replace tooling more frequently.

Closely controlling the hardening process is more costly, subsequent treatment to close tolerances also. We can imagine that cheaper tools may use less expensive steels, skip a few steps in the manufacturing processes or make em to looser tolerances or any combination of the above. Also the design engineer and his logic, experience and train of thought comes into this, big time.

Rgrds

 

[MattT]

Dumbest question ever: where does one WANT the contact points to be, ideally? Knowing that will help me interpret the data.

Not a dumb question at all. Depends on the application. Appears the lobed style would perform best where damaging the fasteners finish would be a problem. Lobed might also have the highest torque capability without rounding but that'd be difficult to test because it's not easy to round a fastener with a flank drive socket. One disadvantage the lobed sockets I've seen have is that they're larger diameter. A socket too big to fit on the fastener isn't much use.

I can't think of any application where contact on the corners would be best. Except maybe loaning to people you don't like

 

[Krokodil]

Thanks for all these tests! Very insightful!

 

[superautobacs]

Here's some talk about surface/flat/edge/point drive, and fastener-friendly stuff ... in no particular order:

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=538997&postcount=51

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=585244&postcount=36

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=651478&postcount=1030


Keep this in mind folks:
Manufacturers have a miniumum standard that they have to abide by, whether it's DIN, ANSI or JIS. These standards have an acceptable tolerance range. What that means is that a 13mm socket coming from the same manufacturer, from the same plant, can broach a 13mm socket with different dimensions (within the allowable tolerance range).

 

[tonydanzah]

So, out of all those sockets, the Blackhawk was the "best"? Am I interpreting this correctly?

I though blackhawk grabbed the corners, making it the worst.

 

[shotgunfatcat]

So, out of all those sockets, the Blackhawk was the "best"? Am I interpreting this correctly?

Lets just say I hope you didn't buy all those tools to use em.....

 

[mrholeshot]

Once again I'm impressed at Metrinch. who knew?

 

[beelsr]

interesting results.

i'll take the #10 king **** if QJ doesn't want it back...

 

[steelespeed]

One disadvantage the lobed sockets I've seen have is that they're larger diameter.

good point, but the koken with the lobed pattern doesn't look any thicker than either their standard design sockets or one from a different manufacturer. how about a quick diameter measurement of the koken and say, the snap-on?

and i'm game for the hazet socket.

 

[bonneyman]

Now I'm curious to know who had the lobe design first, Snap on, Koken, or Metrinch....

According to AA, Bonney's Loc-Rite was patented in 1964 (in sockets and box ends), but the original design was in their Cam-Loc wrenches - patented in 1951 - with the spring loaded moveable pins. This puts it before Snap-On's Flank Drive patent in 1966.
Koken and Metrinch I don't know. Although, on AA I saw an old wrench by New Britain called the "Nut Master" (1954) that looked very much like the new Metrinch design in the open end.

 

[Bolster]

I'm not an engineer, but I'd imagine you'd want it as wide as possible, as close to the edge as possible, for maximum torque and maximum distribution.

That's what I'm thinkin too. Far enough away from the corner so as not to round it, and a nice wide contact area. Max torque with minimum damage.

If that thinking's correct, then the following are great performers:

Koken - New - 6pt
Bonney
S-K Wayne

And by this measure, the used Cman is a runner-up...who'd have thunk it.

 

[beelsr]

my hypothesis is that it's a combination of:

putting the stress close enough to the corner so that the force is applied at enough of an angle that it is directed "into" the bolt, but around it.

and

having the force on the socket itself be focused in a thicker part of the socket wall so that socket longevity is increased.

i would think that the newer flank-drive-style have been FEA analyzed a bit to optimize what the engineer (-ing team) wants to achieve...

 

[quattrojon]

David,

Thankyou for the time and effort you have put into carrying out these tests, which i for one, greatly appreciate.
I really enjoyed reading the results, and it came as no surprise that the Koken sockets performed admirably.

I would also like to thank Steve and Amanda at Koken U.K, who were kind enough to donate the Koken sockets used in this test.

 

[UK Steve]

good point, but the koken with the lobed pattern doesn't look any thicker than either their standard design sockets or one from a different manufacturer. how about a quick diameter measurement of the koken and say, the snap-on?

and i'm game for the hazet socket.

The diameter at the hex end of 12 point, 6 point & the surface drive is identical at 18mm...........