$15 Knipex Cobra clones

[Handyandy23]

I only have one pair of Knipex pliers, but I find it funny that someone would call them "all hype and marketing". I've literally never seen an advertisement for Knipex anywhere.

They're also German made, so they don't get the "made in Murica" fan boost.

For them to sell from pegs in hardware stores at 2-3x the price of their counterparts, with no real advertising, their quality has to speak volumes.

 

[Avenging Bankroll]

nothing

 

[qqzj]

That's why we need objective tests. I think the most deceptive business is women's skin care products. my wife routinely blows away $300 for a tiny bottle of those stuff. No proof at all which one is better, or better by how much. At certain extent, tools can become those cosmetic products. I am pretty sure the mention of German adds two degree of rigidness and three extra tensile strength. Also funny nobody is chanting made in USA in these threads.

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[measuredtwice]

I only have one pair of Knipex pliers, but I find it funny that someone would call them "all hype and marketing". I've literally never seen an advertisement for Knipex anywhere.

They're also German made, so they don't get the "made in Murica" fan boost.

For them to sell from pegs in hardware stores at 2-3x the price of their counterparts, with no real advertising, their quality has to speak volumes.

I haven't seen this mythical "made in Murica fan boost" online. When I joined this forum, I was shocked at the lack of support for American manufacturing and the push for products made in China and Taiwan. Now I've come to expect that anything made in China will get promoted online. Times 10 if it is made in Taiwan. Times 100 if it is sold at Harbor Freight.

I do agree that the Knipex Cobra is an excellent tool.

 

[qqzj]

For anyone seriously working on water pipes nothing beats those made in Vietnam Milwaukee aluminum pipe wrenches. The thick jaw spread the force over wide area to prevent collapsing the pipe. The long handle gives you leverage. They beat those knipex any time all the time. The knipex is at most a specialty products. I will only use them when working for a snobish customer AND he is willing to pay extra after seeing the tools.

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[Handyandy23]

I also know lots of tradesmen that use Channellock, Klein and other brands that serve them well. If you get a good deal on Knipex that's fine but they aren't the ultimate or best brand for pliers (that point seems to be lost). The Jaws are soft, use them on anything harder than brass or copper or whatever soft metal and the teeth and jaws will flatten. Also Knipex Cobras have changed since 2005 just like their jaw design.



I haven't thrown mine out. I'll stick to the Irwin's unless clearance is an issue and then I'll reach for a Knipex or other brand. Also the wider jaws just means the force is spread out on what it grips it doesn't mean the gripping force is cut by 50%.



Youtube sponsorship. You'll find Channellock's outsell Knipex in most hardware stores even ones such as Home Depot. Same with the Irwin's at say Lowe's.

If the gripping force is spread over double the area, then the force the teeth are exerting on whatever you're clamping is 50% less. Think of it like PSI, pounds per square inch. If you have 100 pounds of force, if you have 1 square inch of gripping area that's 100 psi, if you have 2 square inches then it's 50 psi.

Also I don't doubt Channellock and Irwin sell more units then Knipex, because they're half the price (at least local to me). The same way HF probably sells more pliers than Channellock. It doesn't mean they're better, it means Joe DIYer is cheap.

And is your suggestion that the YouTube tool guys are paid off by Knipex to give good reviews? 99% of the tool buying public doesn't watch YouTube videos about tools either.

 

[Avenging Bankroll]

nothing

 

[qqzj]

If you think how the good old pipe wrenches work hard, you will realize they are much smarter tools than knipex pliers. The pipe wrenches bite harder when it is needed while spreading the force more evenly. Those Cobra or alligator has no change to compete wrt to design or practicality or longevity. They are by definition specialty tools that might be desirable when space is limited, AND the angle is oriented appropriately.

If the gripping force is spread over double the area, then the force the teeth are exerting on whatever you're clamping is 50% less. Think of it like PSI, pounds per square inch. If you have 100 pounds of force, if you have 1 square inch of gripping area that's 100 psi, if you have 2 square inches then it's 50 psi.

Also I don't doubt Channellock and Irwin sell more units then Knipex, because they're half the price (at least local to me). The same way HF probably sells more pliers than Channellock. It doesn't mean they're better, it means Joe DIYer is cheap.

And is your suggestion that the YouTube tool guys are paid off by Knipex to give good reviews? 99% of the tool buying public doesn't watch YouTube videos about tools either.

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[Rabid Badger]

The Jaws are soft, use them on anything harder than brass or copper or whatever soft metal and the teeth and jaws will flatten.

Again, this is the first time I've heard anyone say this, and I know from first hand experience that it is incorrect. Maybe you got a pair that somehow missed their heat treatment or accidentally annealed them working with a torch. The jaws on every pair of Knipex pliers I've ever used have bordered on file hardness.

Also the wider jaws just means the force is spread out on what it grips it doesn't mean the gripping force is cut by 50%.

That's precisely what it means. It's the same reason that knives cut things: distribution of force. It also means the steel the Irwins are made of is that much worse; it's subjected to a fraction of the force of the steel in Knipex pliers and it still wears like chewing gum.

 

[Avenging Bankroll]

nothing

 

[jeffmoss26]

I use my Craftsman-branded Knipex cobras daily.

 

[American Locomotive]

Yeah, I have no idea in what reality in which one would describe the Cobra jaws as "soft". I know multiple pipefitters that almost exclusively use Knipex Cobras or the Craftsman re-brands. They've been beating on the same pair for years, installing steel and iron pipe fittings with them. All of the old-school fitters hate on them, until they actually use them, and then they constantly ask to borrow them.

There's a reason why the Cobras have an almost mythical status, and it's not because the jaws are soft and only usable on brass.

I can however say the last pair of Irwin water-pump pliers I had were absolutely despicable. I hurt myself multiple times from the absolutely horrific jaws constantly slipping on anything harder than plastic. They were ridiculously ****.

 

[Rabid Badger]

So the multiple pairs of Cobras (and other pliers) that I tried had their heat treatment missed but the other brands didn't? I find that hard to believe that multiple pairs aren't induction hardened. I threw those pairs away as soon as that happened.

Now you're just making **** up. You're claiming something that hasn't happened to anyone else here has happened to you more than once. That's called a statistical impossibility.

Also: If Knipex pliers are soft garbage, why on Earth do you keep buying them?

If the Irwin's wear out I can easily warranty or replace them. If the Knipex wears out dealing with their warranty process is much more difficult than exchanging an Irwin at Lowes or Home Depot.

If you're willing to put up with the hassle of multiple returns to save a few bucks on a pair of pliers, that's your prerogative.

You can claim that the steel is inferior

It's not a claim, it's a fact.

but I know of plenty of tradesman who are happy using Irwin Groovelock's

Hand them a pair of Cobras and that will change in a hurry.

Also you're comparing knives to water pump pliers, that's not even a proper comparison.

It's physics, man. Let me try another example:

When you're driving in the snow, do you want wide tires or thin?

 

[Avenging Bankroll]

nothing

 

[Rabid Badger]

*snip*

Enjoy your Irwin's, man.

 

[M635_Guy]

This is the first time I've heard someone claim that Knipex jaws are soft. I know a shitload of tradesmen that won't use anything else, though. I also know that my 6 pairs of Knipex pliers are in excellent condition after years of use while anything made by Irwin was banished from my toolbox around 2005.

Even if the Irwins weren't made of brie, anyone trying to use those clunky things after using Cobras would throw them in the garbage before the day was out. The head on the 10" Irwins is about the size of the 12" Cobras and the laughably wide jaws are going to cut your gripping force by about 50%.l

I don't know where he's getting this info, but it's not fact-based.

 

[Downwindtracker 2]

Not all made in Germany are Knipex, I have some German made by some other company ones. They came in a tool box with a German machine. They are the slip joint style. I retired my Channel Locks .

 

[Blind1]

I use my cobras inside, outside, whatever - they aren’t THAT expensive and I still haven’t managed to break them yet. Rinse them off, wipe them down, and maybe some spray lube once in a while.

 

[seber]

If the gripping force is spread over double the area, then the force the teeth are exerting on whatever you're clamping is 50% less. Think of it like PSI, pounds per square inch. If you have 100 pounds of force, if you have 1 square inch of gripping area that's 100 psi, if you have 2 square inches then it's 50 psi.

Friction is determined by coefficient of friction between the two surfaces times the force exerted. This is an engineering constant used universally. Area of contact is immaterial to the result. If you find that hard to believe, I refer you to 'Mark's Handbook for Engineers'. It is the standard and used by every engineer in the US.

 

[American Locomotive]

Friction is determined by coefficient of friction between the two surfaces times the force exerted. This is an engineering constant used universally. Area of contact is immaterial to the result. If you find that hard to believe, I refer you to 'Mark's Handbook for Engineers'. It is the standard and used by every engineer in the US.

Pliers and objects needing be rotated are not ideal theoretical surfaces with a fixed coefficient of friction.

Pliers rely on their teeth physically deforming and pushing into the object they are trying to turn. They physically lock into the object. It's why pliers with rounded over and worn teeth lose effectiveness.

In this case, a smaller contact area for a given force will result in a higher pressure at the teeth on the jaw. More pressure = more stress = more strain = more tooth engagement into the part.

 

[Rabid Badger]

Friction is determined by coefficient of friction between the two surfaces times the force exerted. This is an engineering constant used universally. Area of contact is immaterial to the result. If you find that hard to believe, I refer you to 'Mark's Handbook for Engineers'. It is the standard and used by every engineer in the US.

That model is only applicable as long as the surfaces don't deform. The ability of a pair of pliers to bite into a surface (Knipex) or not (Irwin) is more relevant.

Good try, though.

 

[seber]

I finally decided I needed to find out if the Irwin really is soft. I have a set of calibrated scratch awls from my working days. I also have an old Knipex wire cutter and a recently bought Irwin Cobra clone. They both have exactly the same hardness. Right down to plus or minus one on the Rockwell C scale.

 

[Handyandy23]

Friction is determined by coefficient of friction between the two surfaces times the force exerted. This is an engineering constant used universally. Area of contact is immaterial to the result. If you find that hard to believe, I refer you to 'Mark's Handbook for Engineers'. It is the standard and used by every engineer in the US.

That model is only applicable as long as the surfaces don't deform. The ability of a pair of pliers to bite into a surface (Knipex) or not (Irwin) is more relevant.

Good try, though.

^what Rabid said.

Also friction = coefficient of friction * normal force exerted

The normal force exerted by the teeth changes when you change the surface area.

 

[seber]

^what Rabid said.

Also friction = coefficient of friction * normal force exerted

The normal force exerted by the teeth changes when you change the surface area.

No it does not. Force is total force regardless of area. Coefficient x force total. It is a fixed constant. Sorry, but I have dealt with this all my professional life. I know I have it right.

 

[Rabid Badger]

I finally decided I needed to find out if the Irwin really is soft. I have a set of calibrated scratch awls from my working days. I also have an old Knipex wire cutter and a recently bought Irwin Cobra clone. They both have exactly the same hardness. Right down to plus or minus one on the Rockwell C scale.

There's more to making a durable pair of pliers than surface hardness. If the steel in the Irwins was equal to that used by Knipex they would make the jaws the same width to increase the functionality of the tool. They don't. And yet the wear resistance is still inferior as shown below.

No it does not. Force is total force regardless of area. Coefficient x force total. It is a fixed constant. Sorry, but I have dealt with this all my professional life. I know I have it right.

Seber is correct about the friction characteristics of smooth surfaces, it's just not the proper model to describe this situation.

 

[General Geoff]

No it does not. Force is total force regardless of area. Coefficient x force total. It is a fixed constant. Sorry, but I have dealt with this all my professional life. I know I have it right.

Yeah, what changes is pressure (force per unit of surface area).

 

[lardy1]

In all this "testing" why are we not hearing about the leverage factor? I'm positive that it changes on every brand due to handle design, pivot point, etc. Sailors weren't built to be very bright. But this sailor sees a of of wishful thinking and reaching for brass rings to prove an all but unprovable point. Different dynamics. Apples to oranges. There are enough engineers in this forum that my dumb *** shouldn't have to point it out.

Besides......who really has any legitemate reason to care what brand another person prefers? If they're buying them and they're using them, great. Their choice.

 

[Rabid Badger]

Besides......who really has any legitemate reason to care what brand another person prefers? If they're buying them and they're using them, great. Their choice.

What a person buys is up to them. I just do my best to provide accurate information for them to base their decision on.

 

[lardy1]

I appreciate that, too. I really do. I've relied on this forum to help me make choices. I am in this thread, in fact.

 

[measuredtwice]

...Sailors weren't built to be very bright...

My knowledge of sailing is based on a few months of lessons at a yacht club and Popeye cartoons. So I assume all sailors are either rich businessman, doctors and lawyers or their forearms grow disproportionately when they eat spinach.

... I've relied on this forum to help me make choices. I am in this thread, in fact.

You're doomed. Doomed! Buy the Knipex Cobra. If you don't like it, send it back (Amazon) or return it (Walmart / Menards). But you'll like it.

 

[Handyandy23]

The Craftsman version that some people have talked about in this thread, are they still available retail? Or are these older models?

 

[measuredtwice]

The Craftsman version that some people have talked about in this thread, are they still available retail? Or are these older models?

They are older and gone. They had a black grip over the top of the red grip.

 

[Handyandy23]

They are older and gone. They had a black grip over the top of the red grip.

Thanks. So much for that "forever" warranty

 

[Honda 1]

I have the Craftsman version and they work great! The set was purchased when they were on sale and the price was very reasonable.

 

[AngryBeaver]

They are older and gone. They had a black grip over the top of the red grip.

the had normal red grips also. Those were the older knipex style with the higher arched head. mid 2000's or so