150 amp service for a detached post frame barn

[Jeeper89]

Alright, so I have been looking all over the web trying to find examples of what I am trying to do. I find a lot of close situations but nothing close enough. So here we go...
My home is fed underground to the outside of the garage, at that location I have a meter base then right next to it I have a 200 amp main panel with a main breaker. That panel has 8 spaces and feed through lugs at the bottom. Attached to the feed through lugs are the wires that supply a 32 space 150 amp panel in the basement. My plan is to put an identical panel in the detached 40x60x16 barn that is 18 feet from the house (approx. 50 feet of wire required). I know this is probably overkill, I did look at 125 amp panels but the panel at the local supply house is more expensive and that cost will offset the cost for the larger wire to handle 150 amps. I already have 2" PVC conduit in place from the panel on the side of the garage to where the panel will be in the barn. Hand dug the 30-35 foot trench 2 feet deep and I will be putting yellow caution tape 1 foot above the conduit when I backfill. I have two ground rods purchased and ready to go. I feel about 99% sure on everything but the wire size. Below is some information on the panels I have or plan on getting and some of my current equipment and future dreams. Does anyone see any problems with my plan???


Panel on the side of the garage:
https://www.elliottelectric.com/Media/CH8B200RF-CHD

Panel in the basement of the house:
https://www.elliottelectric.com/Media/CH32B150J-CHD-1021-1-Attachment.pdf

Breaker I plan on putting in the panel on the side of the garage:
https://www.elliottelectric.com/Media/CH2150-CHD

Not sure why but the model number comes up the same for this version. I can make either one work
https://www.superbreakers.net/ch2150.html
I am still undecided what to do for the wire, I am thinking this in 2/0-2/0-2/0-1
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet15

Current equipment:
Lincoln Power Mig 300 http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln3/im736.pdf
Ingersoll Rand compressor https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ingerso...ingle-Phase-Air-Compressor-2475N5-V/203751430
Delta Unisaw (Much older version of this) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002JOZ2BM/?tag=atomicindus08-20
5 hp Delta 12” planer not sure of model at the moment.
And a long long list of smaller tools including 12” Dewalt miter saw, 14” band saw, jointer and so on.

Future Shop plans (hopes):
12K -15K lift
Heat (maybe AC)
3 light commercial door openers (two 12 wide 14 tall doors and one 20 wide 14 tall)
Lots of lights (LED)

 

[Jeeper89]

Well I guess I am right on or way off. I hope to buy the wire today fingers crossed I buy the right stuff.

 

[BlackJackJim]

Alright, so I have been looking all over the web trying to find examples of what I am trying to do. I find a lot of close situations but nothing close enough. So here we go...
My home is fed underground to the outside of the garage, at that location I have a meter base then right next to it I have a 200 amp main panel with a main breaker. That panel has 8 spaces and feed through lugs at the bottom. Attached to the feed through lugs are the wires that supply a 32 space 150 amp panel in the basement. My plan is to put an identical panel in the detached 40x60x16 barn that is 18 feet from the house (approx. 50 feet of wire required). I know this is probably overkill, I did look at 125 amp panels but the panel at the local supply house is more expensive and that cost will offset the cost for the larger wire to handle 150 amps. I already have 2" PVC conduit in place from the panel on the side of the garage to where the panel will be in the barn. Hand dug the 30-35 foot trench 2 feet deep and I will be putting yellow caution tape 1 foot above the conduit when I backfill. I have two ground rods purchased and ready to go. I feel about 99% sure on everything but the wire size. Below is some information on the panels I have or plan on getting and some of my current equipment and future dreams. Does anyone see any problems with my plan???


Panel on the side of the garage:
https://www.elliottelectric.com/Media/CH8B200RF-CHD

Panel in the basement of the house:
https://www.elliottelectric.com/Media/CH32B150J-CHD-1021-1-Attachment.pdf

Breaker I plan on putting in the panel on the side of the garage:
https://www.elliottelectric.com/Media/CH2150-CHD

Not sure why but the model number comes up the same for this version. I can make either one work
https://www.superbreakers.net/ch2150.html
I am still undecided what to do for the wire, I am thinking this in 2/0-2/0-2/0-1
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet15

Current equipment:
Lincoln Power Mig 300 http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/servicenavigator-public/lincoln3/im736.pdf
Ingersoll Rand compressor https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ingerso...ingle-Phase-Air-Compressor-2475N5-V/203751430
Delta Unisaw (Much older version of this) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002JOZ2BM/?tag=atomicindus08-20
5 hp Delta 12” planer not sure of model at the moment.
And a long long list of smaller tools including 12” Dewalt miter saw, 14” band saw, jointer and so on.

Future Shop plans (hopes):
12K -15K lift
Heat (maybe AC)
3 light commercial door openers (two 12 wide 14 tall doors and one 20 wide 14 tall)
Lots of lights (LED)

For 150 A, you can use 1/0 THWN if the cable is rated with a 75 degree C temperature rise rating. Because you may have other options, you would do best to consult a cable ampacity chart on the web - such as

http://www.usawire-cable.com/pdfs/NEC AMPACITIES.pdf

Good luck

 

[alfredeneuman]

Well I guess I am right on or way off. I hope to buy the wire today fingers crossed I buy the right stuff.

2/0 Aluminum is too small for a 150 amp FEEDER.
It's rated 150 amps at its 90 degree C rating, but the lugs on the circuit breaker are only rated for 75 degrees, so you would have to reduce it to the 75 degree ampacity (which is 135 amps).
It's fine for a residential SERVICE for the entire load of the dwelling, because of the load's diversity.

(The problem being this; if the wire is loaded enough to 85 degrees, that the lug on the breaker will have burnt up)

 

[Jeeper89]

2/0 Aluminum is too small for a 150 amp FEEDER.
It's rated 150 amps at its 90 degree C rating, but the lugs on the circuit breaker are only rated for 75 degrees, so you would have to reduce it to the 75 degree ampacity (which is 135 amps).
It's fine for a residential SERVICE for the entire load of the dwelling, because of the load's diversity.

(The problem being this; if the wire is loaded enough to 85 degrees, that the lug on the breaker will have burnt up)

Thank you! Exactly the information I was looking for. I am in a really bad service area at the moment but I will have to hold off on buying the wire today. I’ll check and see if 3/0 will work and if I can find it. That’s the max size the breaker will allow, just not sure it will fit in my 2” conduit.

 

[BlackJackJim]

Thank you! Exactly the information I was looking for. I am in a really bad service area at the moment but I will have to hold off on buying the wire today. I’ll check and see if 3/0 will work and if I can find it. That’s the max size the breaker will allow, just not sure it will fit in my 2” conduit.

Avoid Aluminum if at all possible -- why run 3/0 AL when you can run 1/0 copper THWN rated for 75 degree C and avoid termination temp questions altogether?

 

[Jeeper89]

$.55 per foot for 3/0 aluminum and $1.85 per foot for 1/0 copper. That’s about $210 difference that I can’t justtify just to say I have copper.

 

[bjcouche]

OK, Here's my advice. I think 150A is way overkill and that a 90A feed would be plenty, but I'll address your questions instead of trying to change your design.

Yes, 2" PVC is big enough, especially for your short run, assuming you don't have more than a few 90 degree bends to pull around.

The CAVEOT, being that I recommend AGAINST buying MOBILE HOME direct burial cable and pulling it in conduit. THe reason being that this cable is "triplixed" or is that quadplex... anyhow, it's 4 conductors twisted together to make a cable "assembly". Thus 3 cables twisted together pulls more difficultly through bends than 4 single conductors that are NOT twisted together. The NEC also treats the 4 twisted wires as a single "cable" even though it doesn't have an overall covering, when calculating conduit fill....

Thus, I would recommend going to your electrical distributor and purchasing SINGLE CONDUCTORS of 3/O ALUMINUM THWN. Around here the distributors carry it in sizes from 6awg over 4/O. The southwire brand is rated THWN compact aluminum and comes with a slippery prelubrication coating.

When I put my shop feed in I used 4/O-4/O-2/O-2awg of the same type THWN aluminum cable and it fit (per code) in 2" PVC.

To the guy, who recommended to use copper wire:
Not everybody just won the lottery.
Sure diesel engines are better and deisel fuel is safer and less volatile, but most people drive gasoline vehicles, just as most people use aluminum for large power feeds. With modern aluminum alloys and proper procedures, the issues and concerns of the past with aluminum are in the past.
Brian

 

[Bert_]

Good advice^


The only thing better about copper is that it is more forgiving of sloppy connections. Make good connections and aluminum will hold up just as well while costing 1/4 the price.

Individual conductors are MUCH easier to pull though conduit that the twisted MHF. Individual wires are commonly available in both aluminum and copper usually XHHW or THHN. It costs about the same.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Avoid Aluminum if at all possible -- why run 3/0 AL when you can run 1/0 copper THWN rated for 75 degree C and avoid termination temp questions altogether?

Nothing wrong with aluminum except for those who cant torque to spec and there is al rated for 75* c termination.

The termination temp discussion had to do with the OP thinking he could use 90* c ampacities which he cannot and that also doesnt change with the use of copper.

 

[Jeeper89]

Thanks for all of the help! The $.55 cent quote was for 3/O XHHW that was recommended by the supply house only after I mentioned the 75 deg issue you brought up. I am going to go that route with a green 4 awg copper pulled with it. I’m thinking cost will be under $125 for approx 50 feet (3-3/O and one #4). The breaker was $125 the CH panel was $113 and the door for it was like $12. So I think I’m doing pretty well on cost so far. Again thanks for the help.

 

[mm08822]

Not to add complexity, but you also have the option of a reduced neutral - 1/0 instead of 3/0. A few pennies saved but slighty less fill. No problem with either choice.

 

[Jeeper89]

I went down that road on a past project and I was required to provide a load calculation. Although I could probably figure out how to do that my shop area will ever be changing so I’m just going to do my best to pull three of the same size. My wife had picked up the panel and breaker for me, I just got home and wow that breaker is huge. Takes up four spaces. This should be a fun learning experience.

 

[ard]

You can also buy a 125A breaker, and stay with 2/0 Alum. FWIW

 

[Jeeper89]

You can also buy a 125A breaker, and stay with 2/0 Alum. FWIW

Negative on that comment. CH2125 125 amp breakers are limited to 1/0 max wire size. I’ve been down all these roads trying to “justify” my decision. No disrespect it’s all in good fun

 

[ard]

Negative on that comment. CH2125 125 amp breakers are limited to 1/0 max wire size. I’ve been down all these roads trying to “justify” my decision. No disrespect it’s all in good fun

Ah, didnt look at what breakers you were using. Prolly wouldnt have seen it anyway!

 

[Jeeper89]

I’m just glad to have all the help. I had talked my original plan over with the local inspector and he was good with it. So I feel better knowing that I am closer to right now.

 

[Jeeper89]

I know it's been a while, but I thought I post that about a week ago I passed my electrical inspection and I was complimented by the inspector for doing an outstanding job. I had one outlet wired reverse polarity, what can I say I think the night I was wiring that outlet it was about 4 deg outside and I think my brain was frozen. Anyway thank you all for the help, now to continue to save up the cash so I can get some doors on this place.

 

[AP514]

avoid aluminum if at all possible -- why run 3/0 al when you can run 1/0 copper thwn rated for 75 degree c and avoid termination temp questions altogether?

+1:
Copper for the win......

AL will save you money...I just had a bad experiences with AL in very humid areas