150ft garage sub panel. 100A

[Spyider]

hey i was just wondering what wire i need to get to do this. it will be tapped into the main fuse box in the basement and go roughly 50-75 feet till it exits the home then underground till it reaches the garage then up and in to a new sub panel. i was reading i need some mobile home feeder wire.

"Use MHF/mobile home feeder. It can be direct buried and must b in conduit indoors and where exposed."

so what size wire is this in AL and Copper? what would be better to make that run as i only want to do this once. ill probably use conduit the whole way to just make it easier in case.. ill also be running a gas line out their at the same time but i can probably just make a different thread for that..

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-2-2-4-6-Aluminum-MHF-Wire-By-the-Foot-30163099/205001794 ?

 

[Auto trimmer]

thanks for asking this question spyider. I'm in need of same answer.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The size of wire needed depends on the amperage and length.

Spyider if your total wire length is 75' then #2 AL MHF will work just fine. It will need to be protected in the main panel with a 90a breaker.

MHF is a great choice because of what you already mentioned. U could go with individual conductors but that usually ends up costing more.

Using conduit the whole way makes it a lot easier. Use at least 2"...the subpanel will need an isolated neutral bar! And u will need 2 ground rods...

What equipment will u have?

Auto trimmer- what is the total length of your wire run?

 

[pattenp]

If you have a local Lowe's go and check to see if they carry 2-2-2-4 MHF. It's not listed on the Lowe's website but my local Lowe's carries the 2-2-2-4 MHF at $1.47 a foot, whereas the local HD has the 2-2-4-6 MHF for the $1.79. The 2-2-4-6 is okay, but I'd rather use the MHF with the same size neutral as the primary conductors.

 

[Spyider]

so a 2-2-4-6 is better then? or the 2-2-2-4 MHF? my total run would be 150ft roughly.. i plan to run conduit the entire way to make my pull much simpler.. i only want to do this once haha. just starting to gather parts so once it gets nice out i can brake ground.. was looking at a QO Square D box..

 

[Spyider]

also whats the major diffrence from AL vs Copper? just a larger size wire for Al to get the same effect? Also. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-2-2-2-4-Aluminum-Quad-****-Wire-By-the-Foot-55417399/205001803?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cG%7cBase%7cPLA%7cD27E%7cElectrical&gclid=COKswYbMzsQCFQEaaQodPKQA4A&gclsrc=aw.ds whats the diffrence from this Quad **** Wire vs MHF?..

 

[pattenp]

The 2-2-2-4 is better in my opinion because the neutral and ground are larger and with 150' that's the main reason to use the larger neutral and ground.

You need to be careful about the **** wire because it most likely only carries a USE-2 rating and is not to be installed inside of the structure. The MHF carries a USE-2/RHH/RHW-2 rating which allows it to be installed inside the structure. Look at the specs on the ****, it says outdoor only.

Edit: AL cost a lot less than copper and is the main reason to use AL if you have a long run.

 

[Spyider]

ok thanks, looks like ill be looking for 2-2-2-4 MHF wire. perhaps i can get my 2" conduit down this summer ahead of time then.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

so a 2-2-4-6 is better then? or the 2-2-2-4 MHF? my total run would be 150ft roughly.. i plan to run conduit the entire way to make my pull much simpler.. i only want to do this once haha. just starting to gather parts so once it gets nice out i can brake ground.. was looking at a QO Square D box..

The first one has a reduced neutral. If u have a lot of 120v loads and dont balance them between the phases, it would be possible to overload the neutral since its a reduced size. But this is very rare.

And i guess i missed the 150' part but youre still ok with voltage drop @ 3.5% at full load.

also whats the major diffrence from AL vs Copper? just a larger size wire for Al to get the same effect? Also. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-2-2-2-4-Aluminum-Quad-****-Wire-By-the-Foot-55417399/205001803?cm_mmc=Shopping%7cG%7cBase%7cPLA%7cD27E%7cElectrical&gclid=COKswYbMzsQCFQEaaQodPKQA4A&gclsrc=aw.ds whats the diffrence from this Quad **** Wire vs MHF?..

Major difference is resistance of wire, cost, and size. Yes, the higher resistance of AL wire means u have to use a larger wire but the cost difference is MAJOR!

 

[Spyider]

yea its 150ft total. about 75 in the home since my box is literally in the far corner.. and another 75ft roughly to the garage location. does pvc work fine or i seem to see people using this grey looking stuff. how do i go about making the hole in the home? like how do i make the connection from the conduit into the buildings so it looks proper..

ALSO since i'm gonna have the yard open.. i figure i mideswell bury my gas line.. maybe ill post another thread unless you wanna help me figure that out here also basically whats needed for that as i haven't looked much into that yet.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

yea its 150ft total. about 75 in the home since my box is literally in the far corner.. and another 75ft roughly to the garage location. does pvc work fine or i seem to see people using this grey looking stuff. how do i go about making the hole in the home? like how do i make the connection from the conduit into the buildings so it looks proper..

ALSO since i'm gonna have the yard open.. i figure i mideswell bury my gas line.. maybe ill post another thread unless you wanna help me figure that out here also basically whats needed for that as i haven't looked much into that yet.

Sch 40 electrical PVC IS gray....

And Ive done gas lines before but im an electrician not a plumber..I know u need to add up the BTUs of all the devices u will be using then calculate/convert that to CF/h(which is what pipe flow is measured in), then look at the charts to see what size pipe u need!

 

[bmxdad]

Why don't one of you two create a sticky for this question? Just rough information like direct burial or in conduit, amperage ratings from 60 - 100amp, and wire sizes for AL and CU.

Could a moderator input an Excel spreadsheet?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why don't one of you two create a sticky for this question? Just rough information like direct burial or in conduit, amperage ratings from 60 - 100amp, and wire sizes for AL and CU.

Could a moderator input an Excel spreadsheet?

Easier said than done.

Awhile back I tried to get the admins to post a sticky, of a thread i made about the difference between grounding electrodes and EGCs/grounds because sadly people all too often get confused between the 2....got no response...

But yes, a sticky or several with the basics of installing a subpanel, wiring compressors, and grounding...

 

[pattenp]

You asked about having to use MHF in another post. If you want a wire that can be run from panel to panel in conduit you can also use THHN/THWN or XHHW-2 or RHH/RHW-2 rated wire. The difference with these wires over MHF is that they are not rated for direct bury and must be in conduit when buried. The USE-2 rating on the MHF is why it can be direct buried. The MHF is a pre-assembled cable whereas the other wire types are not so you would need to cut the wire to required lengths and bundle the wires yourself. The sizes of MHF are limited whereas the other wire types are available in a wider range of sizes.

Look at aluminum building wire in this catalog..... http://www.southwire.com/products/ProductCatalog.htm

 

[sberry]

I agree with the HD wire, much better deal and full size wire cat hurt. It also helps a little with V drop if you get a couple loads out of balance on long runs.

 

[sberry]

Self help and more has them,,, they have a good detach garage, kind of redundant but covers a couple of scenarios.

 

[Spyider]

thanks for the other wire options. i don't mind cutting and bundling them if it saves some money.. since ill be using conduit the entire way from box to box anyways.. does 24" deep buried conduit and a gas line.. sound like to deep of overkill?
Also i see the risers for the conduit to get into the side of the home but i was thinking could i just come in from the bottom of the garage slab through a hole and fill it back in so i don't have any "pipes" coming into the side of my garage?.. i appreciate all the help sofar.. thanks.

 

[CNGsaves]

thanks for the other wire options. i don't mind cutting and bundling them if it saves some money.. since ill be using conduit the entire way from box to box anyways.. does 24" deep buried conduit and a gas line.. sound like to deep of overkill?

Also i see the risers for the conduit to get into the side of the home but i was thinking could i just come in from the bottom of the garage slab through a hole and fill it back in so i don't have any "pipes" coming into the side of my garage?.. i appreciate all the help sofar.. thanks.

OP . . . you've got LOTS more research you need to do. Your PoCo or GasCo will have minimum depth for electrical or natural gas buried service. My guess is 30" minimum but I'd go deeper like 36" or so. Make a phone call to their install department and get AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) rules for your area.

You'll want 2 separate trenches . . . .
> > > one for electrical with 2" sch 40 plastic conduit below ground, and then sch 80 above ground. If you go deep like 36" with that main electrical (or deeper), you can then backfill 12" and put 1" continuous plastic conduit for low voltage like CATV/internet/phone/security.
> > > other trench for natural gas (likely 36" or more according to AHJ) will have yellow polyethylene plastic pipe with yellow tracer wire (ie allows for locate later). The yellow plastic pipe will transition to steel with 90 degree L called riser that MUST come up OUTSIDE the building. This allows for shutoff with black pipe steel valve and prevents any leaks in underground section from leaking into the building.

Used GJ Advanced Search for . . . . buried natural gas . . . . as there are lots of threads on this same issue. Good luck but do it right !!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

thanks for the other wire options. i don't mind cutting and bundling them if it saves some money.. since ill be using conduit the entire way from box to box anyways.. does 24" deep buried conduit and a gas line.. sound like to deep of overkill?
Also i see the risers for the conduit to get into the side of the home but i was thinking could i just come in from the bottom of the garage slab through a hole and fill it back in so i don't have any "pipes" coming into the side of my garage?.. i appreciate all the help sofar.. thanks.

Individual conductors might save u a little but the added time to deal with them will even out the cost difference.

MHF is the way to go!

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Why don't one of you two create a sticky for this question? Just rough information like direct burial or in conduit, amperage ratings from 60 - 100amp, and wire sizes for AL and CU.

Could a moderator input an Excel spreadsheet?

Some stickys with FAQ discussions in them would help greatly, but the threads would still be there, with a dozen links to the FAQ. I experienced this in an aircraft specific forum I helped moderate. We had a whole sub forum on FAQs and folks would ask a question in the regular tech forum rather than look thru the subjects of the FAQ forum (which I created standardized titles to so as to make locating a subject easier).

Charles

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The 2-2-2-4 is better in my opinion because the neutral and ground are larger and with 150' that's the main reason to use the larger neutral and ground.

You need to be careful about the **** wire because it most likely only carries a USE-2 rating and is not to be installed inside of the structure. The MHF carries a USE-2/RHH/RHW-2 rating which allows it to be installed inside the structure. Look at the specs on the ****, it says outdoor only.

Edit: AL cost a lot less than copper and is the main reason to use AL if you have a long run.

Very true, cannot count how many threads/posts are on here, where someone went to the electrical supply house and bought wire the counter salesman said would be "OK" only to discover it was USE (only) rated **** wire that could not enter a building and would have to be spliced to something else to continue its journey to the breaker panel in a garage or house.

MHF will have a white striped neutral and a green jacketed or striped ground. The **** wire you DO NOT want almost always has a yellow or yellow striped ground. If you see yellow, DO NOT get it.

 

[pattenp]

Very true, cannot count how many threads/posts are on here, where someone went to the electrical supply house and bought wire the counter salesman said would be "OK" only to discover it was USE (only) rated **** wire that could not enter a building and would have to be spliced to something else to continue its journey to the breaker panel in a garage or house.

MHF will have a white striped neutral and a green jacketed or striped ground. The **** wire you DO NOT want almost always has a yellow or yellow striped ground. If you see yellow, DO NOT get it.

Technically **** or UD cable has no designated ground. The yellow striped wire is a neutral. Quadruplex is 3 phase conductors with 1 yellow striped neutral and Triplex is 2 phase conductors with 1 yellow stripped neutral.

 

[Spyider]

yes I understand the electricity part now. thanks for all the help. i also finally picked out my garage box. got a Square D QO 100A 24 space box. (to match the home one..) got most of the plastic connections didnt get them all as ill figure what i need as i dig. i'll have to get the MHF wire later.. i have been doing my "research" but i wasn't sure if i could have it come out the home side normal but come in the garage from below.. but apparently thats a big no no..

 

[pattenp]

yes I understand the electricity part now. thanks for all the help. i also finally picked out my garage box. got a Square D QO 100A 24 space box. (to match the home one..) got most of the plastic connections didnt get them all as ill figure what i need as i dig. i'll have to get the MHF wire later.. i have been doing my "research" but i wasn't sure if i could have it come out the home side normal but come in the garage from below.. but apparently thats a big no no..

Sorry but you lost me on this. What is a big no no?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

yes I understand the electricity part now. thanks for all the help. i also finally picked out my garage box. got a Square D QO 100A 24 space box. (to match the home one..)got most of the plastic connections didnt get them all as ill figure what i need as i dig. i'll have to get the MHF wire later.. i have been doing my "research" but i wasn't sure if i could have it come out the home side normal but come in the garage from below.. but apparently thats a big no no..

U may need to buy a ground bar kit and isolate the neutral bar in your new panel...

And dont forget the ground rods...

 

[Spyider]

yup bought the ground bar also. i will be doing 2x ground rods.

i wasn't sure if when bringing the electricity conduit into the garage if i could just dig under the garage so-ta speak, and come up from the inside of the garage so i could get the conduit closer to the wall.. and a cleaner install. thats the only part right now i'm questioning. not that its a big deal to come into the side of the garage as ill be busting up that cement right their anyways so ithor way its going in that spot..