1938 Scaife Air Compressor (?!?)

[RaysnCayne]

1938 Scaife Air Compressor (Love it or List it?)

Hey guys,

Can you give me any input on this old girl?

Listed locally for a mere $50, it's a 1936 Scaife air compressor - or the tank is anyway.

I just found it last night and looked at it today, but unfortunately, I don't know much about them. I just know old compressors make lots of cfm and do it quiet as a mouse. The seller has had it sitting like this for over 30 years. He got it from his dad. Had a shop put a relief valve on it. The shop told him it needed some electrical work that he didn't want to mess with so it's been sitting in his garage ever since.

I'd like to buy it and put it into light-duty homeowner/hobby auto service. But I fear scrappers are gonna ****** it up and trash it before I can wrangle a truck and trailer this afternoon.

Can anyone tell from the pics if it's a 3 phase unit? Or give me any advice in general on it? Should I not even bother b/c it's so old with potentially expensive electrical issues?

Thanks.

 

[Murphy4570]

I can't tell if it is 3 phase. If it is, you can put a 1 phase motor on it.

How big is the tank? If it is 80 gallon or bigger, it is worth your time to save it.

 

[5mall5nail5]

I'd be scared to not know how rusted the inside bottom of the tank is.

 

[RaysnCayne]

Tank's 80 gallon, I'm pretty sure. Definitely bigger than my current 60. I thought it was originally a 120 from the photo the seller posted online, but after seeing it in person, I know it's not that big.

Two more pics. (Which probably won't help much.)

 

[billp603]

I'd be scared to not know how rusted the inside bottom of the tank is.

^^^
+1 on this! If the motor and compressor part run well and could be mounted to a new tank it may be a good deal, but I would not pressurize a 70 year old tank that had not been pressurized in 30 years.

 

[Spudland_Dave]

I'd be scared to not know how rusted the inside bottom of the tank is.

When I was shopping for a compressor I was shooting the breeze with a friend at a local industrial supply shop, in walks a tech for a compressed air vendor, we chatted a bit about what I should get, new vs old, 2 stage vs single, etc...Old compressor tanks = time bomb waiting for the right time to let go. Old pumps & motors, better built then today. So I see that pic and to me personally the only thing of value would be the pump itself (motor too if its single phase)...rest is scrap.

 

[porschedude996TT]

The fuse panel has three fuses, my guess is that it is a 3 phase motor. Nobody fuses a neutral.

 

[shurik06_83]

buy it i would in a haert beat that pump is a monster if its the model with an oil pump it will last forever . i worked in a shop that was built in the 20s . a compressor that looked like that was tucked away i wired it up and it fired right up and made air like a champ and had good oil pressure

 

[CNGsaves]

+1 on tank risk. If the motor and compressor part run well and could be mounted to a new tank it may be a good deal, but I would not pressurize a 70 year old tank that had not been pressurized in 30 years.

With that much OIL on the outside of tank . . . just think it's been pushing some oil into the tank as well. Stored indoors, that tank is likely just as good shape as it was 30 years ago . . . likely a non-issue if you clean it out and check for damage BEFORE pressurizing the tank (ie hydro test tank).

For $50 sounds like great rebuild project. Need to be calling compressor suppliers to see about rings, bearings, valves, etc. to rebuild.

Go for it . . gotta take a chance sometimes! Go pay the $50 and line up a trailer to haul it home.

 

[magnusk750]

Looks cool. Tank can be pressure tested and the pump is a tank. For 50 $ i'd take in a moment. If it turns out that there is some kind of major issue with it you can have your money back anyway.

 

[RaysnCayne]

The fuse panel has three fuses, my guess is that it is a 3 phase motor.

That was my very simple way of thinking.


Alas, I've decided to pass.

I don't have a truck or trailer (woe is me!) or I would've got it. Seller wouldn't take my $50 to hold it til the weekend when I could secure a friend's truck and trailer. There's two others coming to look at it today and I'm sure one them will have a truck/trailer to haul her away. Bummer...

 

[kams1973]

Has anyone mentioned that appears to be a Quincy pump?

 

[Outlawmws]

I'd be all over that for $50. The pump alone is worth that even if the tank collapses from internal rust.

 

[Trey T]

you're gonna need at least $500 to get a decent motor and parts for rebuild.

I would wait and see if you can get a full working unit for about $500. I highly recommend Champion over Quincy or any other US made compressor.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The fuse panel has three fuses, my guess is that it is a 3 phase motor. Nobody fuses a neutral.

^^^This and that there are no start capacitors on the motor.

Charles

 

[Murphy4570]

I'd be scared to not know how rusted the inside bottom of the tank is.

Boreoscope will tell that tale rather easily. For $50 the damn thing is worth buying just for parts.

 

[RaysnCayne]

Well....

After having given up. My neighbor three doors down had just gotten back from a mulch run. I thought: "If she lets me borrow her SUV/trailer rig, that's my sign to roll the dice on this beast."

And so...

 

[RaysnCayne]

So now what should I do?

It's most likely a three phase motor, should I try a VFD thing and see if I can get her running first? See if there's holes in the tank and such.

Or should I set about looking for a decent single phase motor before even firing her up?

I'd love to put a borescope on her but don't have such an exotic tool. Can those be rented or something?

 

[CNGsaves]

Persistence pays off . . . . . . . $50 you can't go wrong.

. . . Congrats on the Score . . . .

. . . . . . now you know this thread JUST CONVERTED to a Re-Build !!!

Gotta keep the pics coming. Good Luck!

 

[Trey T]

If you got a proper VFD at hand, give it a shot.

facing the compressor, to the left lower side of the pump, there's a plate that shows the quincy pump model. It will start with a 2xx or 3xx. 2xx is single stage and 3xx is two stage pump.

 

[RaysnCayne]

In post #4, I put a picture of the only plate I could find on the pump. (down at the bottom left side) It's hard to see the first couple numbers in gold, but the first three digits are 320. Guess that means a two stage?

I can't find ANY markings on the pump that indicate a manufacturer. Would there be a Quincy stamp somewhere? The oil in the pump looks to be fairly fresh. Not heavy or gunky at all. It spins quite freely.

 

[930dreamer]

Nice grab, Whatever you do don't toss the motor. What's the motor tag read?

 

[5mall5nail5]

Boreoscope will tell that tale rather easily. For $50 the damn thing is worth buying just for parts.

An xray would tell the real story. I wouldn't even think of using a steel air compressor tank from 1938. That's a death sentence.

 

[Zrexxer]

I wouldn't even think of using a steel air compressor tank from 1938. That's a death sentence.

And there you have it, priceless advice from someone who is apparently able to determine the structural condition of a pressure vessel from a picture on the internet.

 

[Outlawmws]

Well....

After having given up. My neighbor three doors down had just gotten back from a mulch run. I thought: "If she lets me borrow her SUV/trailer rig, that's my sign to roll the dice on this beast."

And so...

If there are any inspection plugs, (big pipe plugs) get Em out get a light inside and take a look at what the inside looks like. if you don't have any, call around for a sonic test of the walls, with a focus on the bottom.

Be sure to drain the beast also and collect what comes out. (how rusty is it?)

Watch CL for a bigger 220 single phase motor, no need to pop $500 for a new one... The thing is already older than you are, why blow the budget on a new motor for it...

 

[RaysnCayne]

Tear-Down Begins

Made a little bit of progress last night/today.

Got her up on "jacks". Cleaned the whole thing off a bit. (Should've just blasted it with water and purple stuff before I got it inside though.)

I'm puzzled about the plug situation. There's one plug at the very bottom but it looks like it's been brazed in place and ain't comin' out without a fight. The water spigot (Huh??) and an adjacent small pipe are roughly 25 degrees from bottom center. Any ideas why they'd do that? I cracked open the spigot and got a few drips of orange water. Hmm... not good. From that I can safely surmise there's at least an inch to two inches of water in the tank. The only opening is the outlet on the end. On the advice of an experienced bro-in-law, I'm going to remove the motor and pump and fill it up with water and try to hydro-test it using my IR compressor.

The tank looks nasty outside, but it's mostly just paint scale. There's no real rust on the outside, just a ton of paint scale. There's at least 3 different layers of paint on it. I think the original color may have been gold.

I managed to get the motor off and dropped off at a local electric/compressor shop today - using the closest thing I have to a pick up. The mechanics came running to see what on earth was rumbling when I backed it into the shop to unload. I can't find ANY markings or tags on the motor. So hp and amps and such are a mystery. Anyone ever seen one like this?

My bro-in-law is 95% sure I've got a Quincy compressor. It's an old 320 model. (He's got a 325 on his old compressor, so he'd know.) They still sell some parts for it, but not all of them. But she spins freely and seems like she's in good shape so I hope that's good to go as-is and I just have to worry about testing the tank and finding a good motor.

 

[oilslick]

I love your Quincy, hydro test that tank after inspecting. That motor is cool too.

 

[Fixnair]

Yes I second the suggestion to hydro-stat the tank. DO NOT USE YOUR OTHER COMPRESSOR TO TEST YOUR TANK. VERY DANGEROUS. EXPLODING AIR TANKS KILL PEOPLE! You can do it yourself easily though. Use the search function on the black bar at the top of this page. Type in my name "fixnair" and then open the first discussion about solution to clean inside air tank. Lots of discussion about hydro-stat tanks. And yes you do have an old 320Quincy. Best compressor made under 7.5 horsepower. It is 5 horsepower two stage.

The yellow mayonnaise you are getting out of your drain valve is a combination of compressor oil and water. Water is normal but oil means something is wrong with the piston/cylinder/ring assembly. Probably needs an overhaul.

The tank drain valve is put up higher for convenience. The inside of that valve is attached to a hose which hangs down to the bottom of the tank. Many of those were broken and would allow thw tank to fill up to the level of the broken hose.

 

[RaysnCayne]

Hey all,

Good news and bad news.

I took the motor and compressor to a local shop to be checked out. They said the motor is shot but the compressor seems to run just fine.

The motor, they had no guesses as to its origin or make, was deemed bad before they even tried to put it on a test rig b/c the shaft was noticeably wobbly. You could take the shaft and bump it in and out about 1/8". (Guess I should've noticed that before I even took it in.) They went on to say it's a sleeve bearing motor and to find those bearings would take a miracle. It could be rebuilt if I really wanted to. But when numbers like $500, $700 and more started flying around (even before a single phase conversion), I quickly put the ki-bosh on that idea.

But the old 320 Quincy compressor fired right up after an oil top-off and pumped to 150 psi in 3 mins. Yippee!!

The mechanics were pretty curious when I dropped this old timey unit off. Some of them, the whippersnappers, hadn't seen one that old. But the foreman came out and started in about how good a compressor it was back in the day. Fun little history lesson.

I've been working here and there to get the tank all capped off and ready for hydro-statting. I think I'm there, but have been sick this past week so I'm not ready to hoist it up and fill 'er up at the moment. Hopefully I can make that happen this weekend.

I have a lead on a used 5hp single-phase Baldor in my neck of the woods, so I'll be checking that out tomorrow.

 

[RaysnCayne]

So what should I do with the old motor?

Scrap it? (There's a boatload of copper in it.)

Sell it? (Anyone here want it?)

One fella on here said don't get rid of it. But I have no use for it. Nor do I have the space to display it as a conversation piece.

 

[an0nymous]

RaysnCayne I looked at that exact same compressor, but couldn't move it. You got a deal- the windings on the motor alone are worth the scrap price you paid. Good score!
I'ld list the motor on craiglist for 75 bucks "condition poor, possibly rebuildable" and after that take over to the scrap metal joint. Current melt value on copper is like 3+ bucks a pound, maybe pull it out yourself. After that, it's just math.
I got an old cincinnati 5/8 drill with press from the same guy that I've been meaning to post. It's an interesting drill, I've not seen one like it.

 

[RaysnCayne]

You wanna give me $60 before I put it on craigslist anonymous? PM me and let's make a deal.


Looks like I may have a motor. I found an old 5hp, single-phase Baldor on craigslist last night. Picked it up for $200 this morning. Put her on the test rig and she fired right up and hummed at a steady 1725 rpm.

That's two out of three key pieces to this rebuild. If the tanks tests out nice, we'll have the trifecta.

 

[RaysnCayne]

Hey all,

I've been trying to hydro-stat this old tank but so far it ain't workin' out for me.

I've had it strapped to the front of my garage for going on three days now. Another day or two and I may have some "concerned neighbors" stopping by.

It took me about three hours to trickle fill the thing yesterday. I put the grease to it last night and wasn't getting any pressure on the gauge. I tried again and found the cap on the end of the compressor outlet (inlet into the tank) was leaking. I cranked it down some more but it still leaks. I guess I'll have to drain the tank down to that tube (the big, long one at the top) and re-tape and really crank the cap down and give it another shot.

I did put an air ****** on it and took it up to 125psi with my current compressor.

I really think this old tank is fine. It's waaay thicker than newer tanks. So even if I've lost a thin layer at the bottom due to internal rusting, it's still probably just as thick (or thicker) than what my IR tank is.

 

[RaysnCayne]

Well, third time's a charm. Sort of.

After pumping LOTS of grease into her (literally a tube and a half), I finally managed to get it up around 225psi. Yay! I probably could've gone all the way to 300, but I felt she was full of enough grease and I don't ever intend to take her past 150.

Problem is, once I got up around the 150psi mark, I found a leak. Booo!

It's a smallish one right at the edge of where one of the feet is tacked to the tank. It looks like there's a weld that cracked at that location.

I know a couple of you would turn up your nose or wag your naysaying finger at it and chuck it in the scrap yard. But I feel it's worth a shot to weld her up and give it a go. I know for sure now that the end caps are totally solid and not going anywhere and that the rest of the tank is fine. It's just these pinholes from a bad weld that are the problem. So I'm gonna weld her up and see if she'll hold.

 

[930dreamer]

That's a common area for a crack.

 

[RaysnCayne]

Hey all,

Thinking about craigslisting the motor and a couple other things today.

So tell me, what is this thing? A starter of some sort?

Is it a 3-phase-only sorta thing or could I wire it to run my single-phase motor? If I could, would it be any better than the way I start it now? (simply flipping the breaker at the panel box)

If it is a 3-phase-only deal, is it worth anything to someone? I'm thinking a commercial application probably ain't gonna happen since it's so old. So it'd have to be a very specific heavy-duty hobbyist that'd be interested, right?

 

[John Timmins]

I suggest you get your motor rewound or repaired as needed. What does "the motor is shot" mean ?

The bolt holes will work for your motor, but if you get something with a different frame size, now you have a new problem.

That motor pulley....research the size of the shaft . If you put a different motor on there, a modern motor, don't be surprised if the motor pully won't fit. This means getting a pully adapter made at a machine shop or giving the Grainger catalog a workout . Until a year or so ago, the grainger catalog didn't have the pully inside "bushing" stats.

What all this means is the pulleys have to operate at the same speed. My advise to you is talk to the oldest guys at that motor shop ! Or find some guy who's retired who used to own it or work there.

I have a 1936 FERO Air Pump. I wish my Westinghouse motor hadn't burned up. I've already gone through the journey you're about to experience.

Some readers may not agree with what I say. Unless I'm mistaken that is a magnetic contactor for YOUR motor. Any new replacement single phase motor will need one. Could your's be rewired ? who knows ? You'll likely need to hire some industrial electrician or get help on here.

Stick with your original stuff as much as possible...it's the easiest way !

Make sure you completely check out the receiver's relief valve. Disassemble it, Clean it. Lap it. Do whatever. Replace it if it's in doubt. You're hydro testing your tank - good ! don't overlook the relief valve.

My Fero only turns 350 RPM and is very quiet. I doubt that yours is worn out internally.

 

[RaysnCayne]

The biggest hurdle to rebuilding the motor - in my mind - is that it's a 3-phase unit. If it was a single, I'd probably be with you. The biggest hurdle according to the shop is those sleeve bearings. They said they're very hard to come by affordably. So I could spend $500 or more to get it rebuilt but then I'd still have to spend a solid $200 (likely more) for a converter. After all that, I'd probably have a real nice and durable motor. But that's just too much for me to spend on this venture. I wasn't looking to replace my compressor in the first place. This all happened by accident.

Yes, the shaft diameter on the pulley off the original motor is too small for this new motor. So I'll either have a machinist friend bore it out for me (for free or a very nominal fee) or, I'll just go back to the compressor shop and see if I can find a pulley insert with the proper shaft diameter for $20-30.

I haven't checked for sure, but I do believe this Baldor replacement motor will require a different set of holes to fit the deck. But that's a simple matter of drilling new holes. No biggie there.

___________________

Wow, your compressor motor only turns 350rpm? I know virtually nothing about compressors, but that sounds exceptionally low. It's been my recent learning experience with this Scaife project that 1725-1750 rpm is about the average rpm to spin these days.

I learned I have a "cheater" motor on my current compressor (IR T20, 2-stage, 5hp, 60 gallon upright from the 1990s). It spins ~3500 rpm.

 

[John Timmins]

Then get a puller and remove the motor pulley. I think I see some allen screws in the center part ????

Check out the Grainger book. I think the pulley centers are made by a company named Woods (?)

I think I paid $14 for my center. You slip it into your pulley and the taper hardens up the pulley on the motor shaft with 3 bolts. Those center things are made for this job.

Not to complicate things....the shape of the belts are not the same on all pulleys -the V. Again if you can get ahold of a Grainger catalog, they explain this. My compressor has the Grainger belts on it, the cheapest ones. Mine takes 3 belts, $7 each. Automotive belts can cost a lot more.

I had to make new mounting holes on my FERO. The motor mounts on a sliding adjustable tray which allows for belt tightning. Otherwize you will have to make elongated bolt holes.

 

[John Timmins]

Two winters ago I overhauled my air compressor for it's 75th birthday.

The pictures wll show what happens when you have to replace an electric motor with something that is not the same motor or frame size. The original motor was Frame size U. Notice the mounting tray for the motor. Also see how huge the motor peckerhead is between the motor stator and the compressor. I'm glad it wasn't much bigger !

The motor pulley has the Woods pulley insert which you can't see because it is on the motor side of the pulley. (Note: this compressor did not come with a belt guard. The compressor belts face the wall normally.)

Another photo shows the pressure guage, the pressure relief valve, and the FURNAS pressure switch. The compressor discharge piping is 1 inch pipe that ends with a pipe elbow.

A hose screws into that elbow using a union like a tubing fitting. A hydraulic shop made the hose up for $20. The tank end of the hose is NPT into the brass thing on the receiver. That brass thing is a check valve that screws into the receiver and the hose screws into it.

Your compressor appears to have an upside down swing check or lift check. Do you think it's 75 years old and the seat is all beat to **** by now ? Consider installing an inline check like you see in this picture. Your compressor will really like that, especially if your unloader isn't working.

Now that you have found a replacement motor, this would be a goog time to renew the bearings in the motor. At lease pull one of the motor's end bells off and inspect the bearings. See if they are sealed or how much grease is in the windings