1st epoxy job questions!

[pauls_workshop]

Hi all, I'm a newbie here and about to do my first epoxy flooring job with a basement workshop project. I have about a 1 car garage amount of space for this workshop room. I wanted to present my rough plan and ask for advice here or anything anyone can help me with issues from my rough plan. I don't have tons of money to spend on the floor and I want to save money on it where I can, but I do want to do it right, have it last a long time, and not have any problems with it.

1. Shop floor has to be done in 2 runs due to stuff that can't be moved out of the space available. House is from 1986. The floor is cement and had a sealer on it. I've used a 4.5" dewalt diamond wheel grinder with harbor freight little grinder to remove the sealer and get down to about an 80 -100 grit sandpaper texture. I've just got the first 1/2 done. This takes alot of time but does the job cheap. My cost is $60 for a wheel to do all the grinding on my project (i had the grinder). I'm not planning on using any acid etch.

2. I have a 1 car garage kit of Valspar 2 part epoxy in gray that I got several years back at a garage sale cheap. I was originally thinking of using this for the basecoat. I also bought a Valspar 2 part epoxy topcoat recently. Some know these under quickrete name prevously (all made by Valspar). Well, talking with a friend who has done some floors for factories with epoxy, and reading the excellent forums here on epoxy, I've decided to go with a better kit for the main coating and have on order a 1 car garage kit from epoxy - coat instead I'll get in a few days. It should be about 10 microns thick vs. about 2.5 in the Valspar water based kit. I'm using chips so do want a clear finish coat on top. I'm thinking the Valspar as clear on top the epoxy-coat should be OK, if applied at the 18-24 hour window epoxy-coat recommends for the clear coat. Any thoughts on this? I want to save money on the clear if I can and the Valspar is cheaper than the epoxy-coat for the clear. I figure if the basecoat is very good, if the clear wore through eventually in the wood shop, then I could always just add another clear coat in future years no problem, but I want that basecoat right.

3. I do have a small crack in the floor and also small chipped out areas where carpet tacks used to be in the basement. So I have to fill those. I bought a 24 ounce 100% epoxy solids repair kit in Rustoleum format to do that. I was thinking of mixing in lots of silica sand with that to patch the chipped out areas and stretch the epoxy for that. Is about a 2:1 sand to epoxy ratio about right for this? I'm assuming this should be OK for this but tell me if I'm wrong.

4. I've read LOTS here about the benefits of using a primer under the epoxy, even though epoxy-coat doesn't require one, but the ones recommended are hundreds of dollars = as much as the epoxy basecoat! Are there no good primers that would work fine that are cheaper or available at the home stores that would work? (I have a Menards, Lowes, and Home Depot here and a Sherwin Williams and ICI store too) I was thinking - since I have this Valspar gray kit I wouldn't otherwise use, could I use THAT as the primer coat under the nicer thick Epoxy-coat base? The primer coat I've read is supposed to go into the cement pores good - well a water base 40% solids coat might be better then as a primer coat than a 100% solids one, right? Is this a good idea or a terrible one? I think there was a ppi primer about 40 or 50% solids I saw mentioned? Thoughts on this using the valspar kit as primer?

5. My floor also had the cement poured after the block walls were put in, so I have expansion joints at the perimeter edge of the floor all around to the block. I think best to allow expansion to happen if it needs to, so I'm planning on filling using Sikaflex self levelling on top of the foam backing and not ever epoxying over those joints. I don't want epoxy to crack over the joints and can't see how to avoid that really. I can paint with a little darker shade of gray paint though on the Sika and I think look OK.

6. What is best way to clean off the cement just before the epoxy? Water many times with mop? Denatured alchohol alone? right now it is very dusty.

7. How best to minimize the line between the two sections I'll be doing? Will the clearcoat just hide that completely or not?

Experts, please help out the new guy here with your thoughts. I'm amazed at the great community here and all the help from installers, suppliers, and successful do it your selfers. This is truly a super special community that I'm glad I just discovered! Thx in advance! - Paul

 

[Baada]

There is another thread going now about doing Epoxy ins stages with some info on it. I did it and it worked extremely well for me. See my basement overhaul link in my signature.

I think my link might also answer some of your other questions too as my situation was exactly like yours.

PM me if you have further questions. I am certainly not an expert but I just went through what you are doing.

 

[pauls_workshop]

Thanks Baada, I'll read through your link carefully !

I'd have to think some of my questions have all come up before but it is hard to find it all. If anyone can help with any of my questions but not the rest, please help with anything you may know about ! I'd love to hear from anyone that has used the water based epoxies before (as primer) or after as clear topcoat the 100% solids type. Any problems doing that or things to look out for? thx- Paul

 

[Shea]

I'm thinking the Valspar as clear on top the epoxy-coat should be OK, if applied at the 18-24 hour window epoxy-coat recommends for the clear coat. Any thoughts on this? I want to save money on the clear if I can and the Valspar is cheaper than the epoxy-coat for the clear. I figure if the basecoat is very good, if the clear wore through eventually in the wood shop, then I could always just add another clear coat in future years no problem, but I want that basecoat right.

Yes, the Valspar should work. I would call the Epoxy-Coat tech line to verify though. Occasionally when using two different brands there can be a reaction that will affect the epoxy. That said, it always pays off in the long run to go with the better product. If you can find a way to work the Epoxy-Coat clear into your budget I would recommend it.

Is about a 2:1 sand to epoxy ratio about right for this? I'm assuming this should be OK for this but tell me if I'm wrong.

That will work, I've used 3 to 1 before depending on the application. The important part is to make sure that all the sand is saturated well before applying your mix.

I've read LOTS here about the benefits of using a primer under the epoxy, even though epoxy-coat doesn't require one, but the ones recommended are hundreds of dollars = as much as the epoxy basecoat! Are there no good primers that would work fine that are cheaper or available at the home stores that would work? (I have a Menards, Lowes, and Home Depot here and a Sherwin Williams and ICI store too) I was thinking - since I have this Valspar gray kit I wouldn't otherwise use, could I use THAT as the primer coat under the nicer thick Epoxy-coat base? The primer coat I've read is supposed to go into the cement pores good - well a water base 40% solids coat might be better then as a primer coat than a 100% solids one, right? Is this a good idea or a terrible one? I think there was a ppi primer about 40 or 50% solids I saw mentioned? Thoughts on this using the valspar kit as primer?

Yes, anytime you can use a primer do it. It has an abundance of benefits. Again, I would contact Epoxy-Coat to verify mixing the product. I wouldn't use the old Valspar kit you have however. You don't know how old that is and it's not worth taking a chance of doing everything else right to have your floor fail because you tried to save money by using an old product that you found at a garage sale. Legacy Industrial has a nice primer that I believe Scotty said works fine with Epoxy Coat but it is going to cost more money. If you don't have the money for primer, Epoxy-Coat is a good product and if you prepped your floor right you shouldn't have a problem.

This raises a question. You said it was in a basement. Have you done a moisture test yet to determine if your concrete is acceptable for epoxy?

What is best way to clean off the cement just before the epoxy? Water many times with mop? Denatured alchohol alone? right now it is very dusty.

Do not mop. All you will do is spread the dust around. Use a good shop-vac to clean up the dust off the floor. Test it with tape afterwards to make sure you go it all. If not, you may need to introduce some water to help lift the dust out and use a wet-vac on it.

How best to minimize the line between the two sections I'll be doing? Will the clearcoat just hide that completely or not?

I've done a fair amount of floors over the years but never had to separate two sections without a contraction joint of some sort between. I've seen jobs done that way but you can always tell the difference when you look. I would shoot that question out separately to the forum and you might get a better idea.

Good luck with your project, you are asking good questions.

 

[pauls_workshop]

Shea, many thanks for your considerate reply. This is just the kind of help I was looking for for my many assorted questions. Baata also showed me a good result in his link of what a split application floor might look like at the seam. Baata, it looks GOOD to me. Very slightly visible, but not bad at all for my purpose. I really can't avoid it anyhow. Also, I have the SAME ceiling as you! I painted the ceiling of the room white and with the bare joists before trying to do the floor next... My room has ducts through it, so just not practical to use soffits or a lowered ceiling method, but works well just painted white for shop use...

Shea, I do still want to see if anyone has ever used a water based epoxy like a rustoleum or valspar/quickrete as a primer though. I found this from another website here: www.epoxyproducts.com/primers.html which tells me that this is not as crazy an idea as it might at first seem. Somebody is doing this and they are pros. Who out there has tried this with success (or failure) and if so why?

WATER-BASED EPOXIES: Water based floor epoxy systems for concrete surfaces are becoming more common and are now sold in the ‘Big Box' hardware superstores. Being water based they tend to ‘soak into' the concrete surface to some degree, thus resulting in an outstanding mechanical bond and few coating failures for ‘Do It Yourselfer' coating their garages and basements. While these coatings are ‘stand alone' for light traffic situations, commercial users are beginning to see these ‘thin' water based floor coatings as ideal primers under more traditional, often solvent free, industrial grade floor epoxies. Our med gray water based floor epoxy is called Water Bond.

Now, I do know that there are superior primer products out there, like the Legacy one. But they are also high dollar. If I was a business or a factory or something, I'd surely go with the professional products. But I'm just a homeowner, looking to put together his first real small woodshop in life, trying to make it a nice space but also under real cost constraints. My question is really would the benefits of a water based epoxy primer like a Valspar (assuming it is NOT too old) with epoxy-coat outweigh the situation and be an improvement over using the epoxy-coat without any primer at all ? The question isn't really is there a better choice of primer for much higher cost, because I know there surely is. Or if that is just a bad idea, despite the info above from epoxyproducts.com, then are there any lower cost primers anyone has used successfully with 2 part epoxies besides just the high dollar ones, like a $50 / gallon or less cost primer?

Update: Hah! Looks like my harbour freight 4.5" grinder may have died on me today unless the switch is just not working right with some dust probably in it. It has already served it's purpose, but I hope I don't have to buy another grinder! That would add another $25 to my total grinding cost on the project to $85 total if so!

I haven't yet done the water test, but after grinding, I've already mopped the floor a couple times (I did some wet grinding too, so it was inevitable), and water on the surface gets sucking in completely now in about 10 minutes and appears dry, so I think I'm good on this. Had to get the sealer all off first to see what I have, but I will do the official plastic test to verify no moisture.

Many thanks Shea, you are one of the greatest humans I have met (but I know there are others out there too)! - Paul

 

[pauls_workshop]

I'm taking Shea's suggestion now and starting another thread just for the primer question. Thanks all ! Please do post any other thoughts anyone has on what is here ! - Paul

 

[pauls_workshop]

Thought I'd give an update! I've taken the experts advice on a number of matters for my project:

1. I've returned my clear coat in Valspar and decided to use that money and buy a better clear. In the end, since I'm using Epoxy-Coat for the base gray, I'm going with an epoxy-coat clear too. The only thing is, after ordering this from Lowes, I found that there are really two versions. I'm getting the standard, epoxy clear version. Not a urethane or other option. Epoxy-Coat should make the urethane option available though Lowes too.

2. My old water based valspar gray kit should be just fine as a primer coat. I did heat up the gallon containers and that did loosen up the epoxy to be just like a gallon of fresh paint. I've read that old epoxy can be turned into good as new by doing this. This should make a good primer coat for me and I'm going to try it out.

3. Just finished filling all the cracks and holes from old carpet tacks that pulled up cement. I used a "cement epoxy" mix for this and it worked just great. The Rustoleum EpoxyShield Concrete Patch and Repair with 100% solids works just great for this purpose. I mixed it with about 4 parts silica sand (Menard's Handy Sand) to 1 part of the epoxy and made a cement with it. Takes time to put it in each hole because the putty blade will "pull" it out on the far end when you pull it towards you. You have to go back the other direction and "pull" it the other way and then all around again. I used a little spritz of Windex on the blade every few minutes and for the final smoothing in each place, which helps alot to make it tight in each place and smooth and "grab" less. Then the next day, go over it with the 4.5" diamond wheel angle grinder and it is just like the original floor texture and smoothness. Although I'm not using other Rustoleum epoxy products, I think this kit with sand for holes/cracks works just great and is as low a cost as anything else.

4. Hopefully, I'll do the first 1/2 of my project with the epoxy this next weekend, then move on to the second half in coming weeks as my time allows.

I do have another question for the pros: Clear Coats. How do the different clear options rank in terms of scuff and scratch resistance? In my case, in a basement without windows, I'm not concerned with the yellowing of the epoxy so an epoxy clear should be fine for that, but I am concerned about scratch and wear resistance in a shop. How would an Acrylic Urethane vs. a Polyester Polyurethane vs an Epoxy Clear rank on a scale of 1-10 for wear and scratch resistance. How bad will the plain epoxy clear be for this relative to other clear options out there? I don't want to spend more on a clear beyond what I have, but I want to know what I'm getting into too with my choice. Or what are ways to handle? Can you wax or otherwise polish over the epoxy clear to add resistance for scuffs/scratches? Would that help? Other options to improve it and maintain it over time? thx - Paul

 

[pauloman]

water based floor epoxies are for light use and they don't hide cracks etc. And the ones sold at the box stores and many online vendors are rather low end stuff. Serious workspace floors use an quartz broadcast floor system with 100% solids (0 voc) epoxies. You cannot feather in these epoxes - you need a seam. If you use tape, remove it before the epoxy sets up.

Why clear coat if no decorative chips? the only clear coats worth a dime are two part LPU coatings (especially the polyester polyurethanes). These cost hundreds to several hundreds of dollars per gallon.

you might proceed slowly , used to be one of the huge paint companies would not recommend any coatings for below grade application (ie basements). Generally not a problem but proceed carefully.

In industrial secondary containment areas expansion joints are often covered with a 'loose' tape that bonds to both sides of the crack and allows for movement (tape is coated with the epoxy too.

some contractors use primers some do not. Usually the primer is a water based epoxy or they solvent thin the first coat of a solvent free epoxy. Note this is often done not just as an adhesion bonder but also addresses the issues of outgasing from the concrete surface as daytime temps increase (not usually a problem in sub division garages, or basements).

a clear epoxy will yellow slowly even in the dark. They are soft of medium hard plastics. The ultimate clear coat is the 2 part polyester polyurethane (cheapest source is $130 a gallon). I know one industrial paint manufacture that will not use anything less on floor topcoats. Because of the high cost of quality clear coats, most floor guys need to only deal with the cheap low end stuff or they price themselves out of the home owner business

 

[pauls_workshop]

Paul, thanks for your very knowledgable response. I had heard up to now that the yellowing of clears was only a concern where uv light (sunlight) was present. I didn't ever hear that in the dark, epoxies still yellow at all or with anywhere near the rate over time. I have also heard though that UV inhibitors used in other clears than epoxy clear only "slow" UV transmission or the yellowing and that eventually those inhibitors will leave the clear coating. I don't know a timeframe for that process, 10 years? 20 years?

My main question is to rank the various clear options out there for scuff resistance and scratch resistance. I am using chips so do want a clear of some sort over them. Since "good", "best", etc are pretty relative, how about a 1-10 scale, with 10 meaning a sharp knife stroke using your arm across the floor doesn't leave a scratch as a criteria or maybe a floor jack moving sideways across it doesn't leave a scratch as a 10? How do the various options do on this type scale? I think you could do this, and perhaps a few others on the flooring site here that are similar experts, if you would.

I could add another clear sometime on top of the epoxy clear if desired, but I want to know what I'll have with the epoxy clear vs. the other options out there. If I'm looking at 10% better scratch resistance with the "best" polyester polyurethane over epoxy clear, then I will say forget it. If it is a 9 vs. epoxy clear a 2, then I might want to think about this. I need some help from experts to fill out this scale. I'm sure others would like to know this too. I realize these won't be scientifically proven numbers, but opinions based on experience and likely to not all be the same among the different experts. I'm just fine with that! Please help to answer my actual question if you would. Also, can any other clear option go on top of the epoxy clear? Or are there any concerns with any overcoating of a clear on top of an earlier clear? - thx Paul.

 

[pauloman]

In a basement with no direct light I wouldn't bother with a clear coat unless colored chips are also involved. Instead of chip you could try faux painting or flicking paint droplets on the floor. yes epoxies will slowly yellow even in the dark. Best to use colors like cream, brown, yellow/gold instead of snow white base or chips to mask the yellowing.

the polyester polys are much tougher than the med hard epoxy, but that said, they are also very thin compared to the thicker epoxy. couldn't give you a number.

for a hard working shop floor the only real option is a quartz broadcast floor (in a solid color). 100% solids epoxy base, sand broadcast to excess, remove excess sand when epoxy sets up. Sealing top coat of the same epoxy thinned about 25% for coverage.

this is the kind of commercial floor you can drag pallets with nails in them across the floor. Really a stone floor (about 3 sand grains deep) held in place with the epoxy.