1st metal lathe....basic beginner cutters carbide or hss?

[1982fxr]

I'm gonna do a video on my Atlas 10x36 and the few attachments I got with it so attachments and needs will be a separate thread.

It's running a 1/2 HP motor, quick change gear box, power cross feed, threading dial, AXA quick change tool post. I just want to learn very basics first including some threading.

I was thinking of starting with one of those carbide insert kits just to get going. And then purchase some pre-ground hss and try to learn to grind hss.

I have a few bench grinders including a like new Baldor 6". That's good enough for grinding hss right?

 

[1982fxr]

Tailstock not pictured. The bit in the holder is the only one I got with it.

 

[Mgdoug3]

As a newbie myself the carbide tips make it easy to start cutting. I bought some HSS bits and did ground my own. I prefer HSS for finishing passes and thread cutting. When I tried using carbide tips for threading, I was getting a lot more rough threads. That might have been user error but with HSS I'm getting much smoother passes. I like the carbide tips when I have a lot of material to remove.

 

[1982fxr]

I've seen comments about the atlas machines saying they can't really take advantage of the carbide inserts, but even if they're limiting it seems like the easiest way to get started...

 

[Mgdoug3]

I would also recommend buying carbide bits with replaceable tips. They tend to break when starting to learn.

 

[Shadowdog500]

I found that those cheap carbide insert sets from HF didn’t really work that well. I also tried a few other cheap kits and gave up on them.

Then I tried the hobby lathe kit from latheinserts.com and really liked it. https://www.latheinserts.com/HOBBY-LATHE-KITS_c112.htm

He combines a carbide bit that works on low power lathes with a decent tool holder.

I prefer them over my HSS for most things, but agree that a Sharp HSS bit gives a great finish on a low power lathe.

When I started with a minilathe I liked going the HSS route. Sharpening bits can be fun. It it is also cheap since a dull HSS can be resharpened in a few minutes for free.

 

[81turbota]

On my SB 10K I use HSS when I can. I have the indexable carbide cutters, both Chinese and US, while good the lathe can’t take advantage of them properly.

The tool post you have is great, I have the same. Extra tool holders are about ~$20, I have a bunch of them.

 

[2oolhound]

Get a copy of "How to Run a Lathe". You should be able to find a digital copy free on the web. Printed ones are common on ebay. They show everything about your lathe. It will answer a ton of questions.

Did you get the chucks with it?

 

[jh1990]

What's the max RPM on that lathe?

I use carbide and hss on my 10" Logan.

I have a set of the SCxx holders from Precision Mathews.

Grinding HSS is a good skill to have and it can be surprisingly forgiving.

Look up the vertical shear tool. Super easy to grind and leaves a nice finish on 1018 steel. It's only for finishing cuts though.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

I found that those cheap carbide insert sets from HF didn’t really work that well. I also tried a few other cheap kits and gave up on them.

Then I tried the hobby lathe kit from latheinserts.com and really liked it. https://www.latheinserts.com/HOBBY-LATHE-KITS_c112.htm

He combines a carbide bit that works on low power lathes with a decent tool holder.

I prefer them over my HSS for most things, but agree that a Sharp HSS bit gives a great finish on a low power lathe.

When I started with a minilathe I liked going the HSS route. Sharpening bits can be fun. It it is also cheap since a dull HSS can be resharpened in a few minutes for free.

+1

I use the same kit. CCMT and CCGT are great for these machines. 21.51 may fit your machine better than the 32.51 I use. 1/2 is not too little to take advantage of carbide, though it is close. I'd start with HSS until you are comfortable with lathe operations then switch to carbide. I still thread mostly with HSS.

P.S., I don't much like the cheap triangular kits much either. They are negative rake with a poor pocket design. Just not good holders.

 

[1982fxr]

Get a copy of "How to Run a Lathe". You should be able to find a digital copy free on the web. Printed ones are common on ebay. They show everything about your lathe. It will answer a ton of questions.

Did you get the chucks with it?

I only got a three jaw. Plus a steady rest, follower, not much else. I'll post a video on YouTube of the machine, accessories and lathe related tools I've gathered in anticipation of this purchase over the years.

Probably the easiest way for people to give me advice on that stuff.

I also see a book called how to run a lathe, for the beginner by South Bend. Is that a good version?

 

[ClappedOutBport]

That's the one.

 

[Bigbandguy]

LOTS of Atlas info here:

http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgIndex/detail.aspx?id=51&tab=3

 

[MushCreek]

I much prefer GOOD carbide inserts for all of my turning, even on light-duty lathes. I use TNMG inserts, which go on a negative rake holder. They're miles ahead of the typical cheap triangular inserts, and you use both sides, so you get six tips instead of three. They do take a special holder, though. Of course, they cost more, but have more than twice the life. I find bargains all over ebay if you know what to look for. My Iscar threading holder also uses negative rake, and works very well. On certain materials, particularly plastics, HSS works better. I once discovered on a production job that the only way to single-point threads in plastics is one pass, full depth.

 

[chickenfarmer]

Sweet Kennedy box!

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

 

[1982fxr]

Sweet Kennedy box!

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

Thanks, it is pretty sweet.

 

[1982fxr]

I much prefer GOOD carbide inserts for all of my turning, even on light-duty lathes. I use TNMG inserts, which go on a negative rake holder. They're miles ahead of the typical cheap triangular inserts, and you use both sides, so you get six tips instead of three. They do take a special holder, though. Of course, they cost more, but have more than twice the life. I find bargains all over ebay if you know what to look for. My Iscar threading holder also uses negative rake, and works very well. On certain materials, particularly plastics, HSS works better. I once discovered on a production job that the only way to single-point threads in plastics is one pass, full depth.

Can you elaborate on good brands or keywords for these?

 

[matt_i]

My advice is to start with HSS. You have to learn to shape the HSS tool. Best analogy I can offer is two visuals, one is a moldboard plow, and the other is a jagged cliff that juts out of the mountaiside and is the farthest point out with everything tapering back and away from it.

HSS gives you as the freedom to create a tool that can make any profile you can imagine with just a grinding wheel. Eventually that is going to come in extremely handy as there won't be an inserted carbide to do what you want to do.

When I started machining I tried all sorts of setups (some very janky as I didn't really have a mentor). I tried my fair share of TPG inserts and broke several of them thru the center hole with interrupted cuts or scavenged rough material or stopping the spindle with the tool still in the cut. That's about like lighting a $10 bill on fire in front of your face these days. Whereas I have yet to ever burn thru a single HSS bit which could be $15 these days.

Eventually if you get to better more rigid machines you'll want inserted carbides. I like the CCMT insert (80 deg diamond) as you can turn and face without changing. It has only 2 corners vs the 3 of a triangle but it doesn't seem to limit me. I think its a stronger insert anyway. You want a SCLCR turning or boring tool for the 80 degree diamond CCMT.

 

[royesses]

If you don't mind spending the cash the A.R. Warner indexable HSS tools are awesome. The inserts are flat with 3 cutting edges. When they get dull ( not often) just lay them on a sharpening stone and give a couple of strokes and they are like new. The little machine shop sells them as does A.r. Warner's web site. HSS works perfectly for most materials on small lathes and mills. There are also carbide inserts available for the A,R, Warner tools making them even more versatile. Made in the U.S.A
Also the Hobby Machinist web site is a treasure trove of information with many semi pro and pro and hobby members who love to help and never flame anyone.

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/forums/

https://littlemachineshop.com/products/search.php?tabName=Products&term=a.r.warner

http://www.arwarnerco.com/

Roy

 

[Ohmthis]

There are tons more people here more experienced than me to machining. When I started learning how to use the lathe we had to bring our tools from HSS. We first made a set up tool. And ground our cutting and threading tools with it. It teaches you angles and the back angle for a cut. If you tore it up, you spent a little bit of time at the grinder. Eventually we moved up to carbide tooling, but I still used HSS.

 

[TLGriff]

The Atlas lathe lacks the power and rigidity to benefit from carbide tooling. You would be much better off investing in a handful of high speed steel tool blanks and learn how to properly sharpen them. HSS is more cost effective, versatile, and much more forgiving than carbide. There are plenty of videos and reference material on my website to get you started in the right direction.

Tom

 

[mz44]

So what does it cost to get into a little lathe like that, before all the bits and attachments? I always wanted to learn.

 

[1982fxr]

Mine was $1,100 with few extras. But that's in Phoenix. I'd think you could do better back east.

 

[ClappedOutBport]

The Atlas lathe lacks the power and rigidity to benefit from carbide tooling. You would be much better off investing in a handful of high speed steel tool blanks and learn how to properly sharpen them. HSS is more cost effective, versatile, and much more forgiving than carbide. There are plenty of videos and reference material on my website to get you started in the right direction.

Tom

Respectfully disagree Tom. I've seen this argument word for word many times, but I don't feel it's applicable with modern day positive rake inserts. I was told the same about our 10" 3/4 horse Rockwell, but the blue chips coming off at the maximum DOC the lathe would allow said otherwise. I think positive CCMT/CCGT inserts, especially in the 21.51 size would be beneficial after one has learned on HSS on such a lathe.

 

[Shadowdog500]

So what does it cost to get into a little lathe like that, before all the bits and attachments? I always wanted to learn.

I picked up this lathe with tooling for $650 on Craigslist. If you really want one just put the money aside and be ready to buy when a deal comes along. You live in PA, you should be able to score a good deal on a lathe and mill.



When I talked to they guy on the phone he said he also has a mill sitting next to it for $650. Jumped on that too. His dad died and he was cleaning out the garage.

 

[TLGriff]

Respectfully disagree Tom. I've seen this argument word for word many times, but I don't feel it's applicable with modern day positive rake inserts. I was told the same about our 10" 3/4 horse Rockwell, but the blue chips coming off at the maximum DOC the lathe would allow said otherwise. I think positive CCMT/CCGT inserts, especially in the 21.51 size would be beneficial after one has learned on HSS on such a lathe.

The first time that Atlas lathe stalls or chatters, it will destroy the edge on a carbide insert, especially the thin cutting edge of one with a positive rake. The OP appears to be a beginner, so it's not a matter if, but when that will happen. It would be much less frustrating for him to start with HSS and learn to sharpen it before considering anything else.

Tom

 

[1982fxr]

I have a baldor 1/3 HP, 3,600 rpm grinder.

What wheels do I need to get started on hss?

I probably have regular coarse and fine out there...

 

[ClappedOutBport]

Aluminum oxide, blue wheels. Not cheapies either, they just disappear and you have to dress them constantly.

 

[1982fxr]

I see Norton are like $25-75 for those. Ouch

What grit?

 

[TLGriff]

Go to travers.com and search for "bench aluminum oxide". Six inch 60 and 80 grit wheels will run $15-20. You'll want one of each.

Tom

 

[1982fxr]

Thanks guys.

As for hss, I was thinking of a factory pre cut kit and then some blanks. My tool holder takes up to 1/2" square tooling.

Are there certain brands I should look for?

 

[TLGriff]

I actually don't know of a source for pre-ground lathe tools, but grinding your own is a pretty basic skill when it comes to operating the lathe. Check out the following video, grab a few blanks, and give it a shot. You may want to grab some mild steel square stock as well for practice, because it grinds much faster than HSS.

Grinding Turning and Facing Tools for the Lathe

Tom

 

[Shadowdog500]

I actually don't know of a source for pre-ground lathe tools, but grinding your own is a pretty basic skill when it comes to operating the lathe. Check out the following video, grab a few blanks, and give it a shot. You may want to grab some mild steel square stock as well for practice, because it grinds much faster than HSS.

Grinding Turning and Facing Tools for the Lathe

Tom

That’s the same exact video I was going to post. I like all of the other machinist videos on grinding HSS, but I think this one is the best.

If you go to Tom’s webpage he has guides on what angles to use for different metals and different tasks. I keep copies of these sheets near my grinders.

Here is the link. https://tomstechniques.com/reference/

Chris

 

[1982fxr]

Ok guys I'm really confused and my manual is at work. The guy had the lathe set up so the motor didn't hang off the back costing all that extra floor space.

It's got this short belt on that needs the whole motor mount apparatus up so tight to the lathe that the tension handle and back gear selector hit each other.

The tension handle does nothing that I can see with it this way, it's basically disabled. It's like the whole set up has the factory way disabled and you just put the belt on what pulleys you want by removing the counter shaft to get clearance and then put it back in the counter shaft housing...?

Also on the only pic I can find it looks like the motor is supposed to be an inch or two lower than the bottom of the lathe.

I bought a link belt but when monkeyed with it and tried to restore the factory tension handle operation, as soon as you released the lever to tension it...the pulleys fall into a spot where they are rubbing on things. Is this from the motor being too high?

 

[1982fxr]

Is there any way to keep the motor on top of the bench and make this work the factory way.

I thought with the link belt I would move the motor set up back a few inches from the lathe do the back gear lever was free and clear to operate.

As soon as I did that though, I ran into the issue of the belt rubbing on things when dropping it into "tension" position.

 

[matt_i]

Doesn't the tensioning lever pull up both the jackshaft and the motor at the same time? I think the motor just hangs by its weight on the V-belt.

Based on that the motor-hinge has to be almost touching the benchtop and has to pull up high to loosen the top/horizontal belt.

It looks like the start capacitor might be a hinderance. Potentially one could clock the motor 90 degrees but would have to fab some L-brackets to allow the foot to mount in a vertical orientation.

My Dad has a similar machine and it seems like the motor hangs lower. You could space up the base of the lathe on hardwood blocks, lets just say 1-1/2". Could be a double-stack of unfinished oak flooring or actual S4S.

 

[1982fxr]

Yes the lever is supposed to, but with this short belt and motor set up , the lever can't do anything.

The lever is forced into the "all the way toward the operator position" and the system of using the weight of the motor is disabled.

That's the only position the lever can be in with the belt so short. There is no travel there.

The lathe is already at Max height for me to operate. I can't add wood under it. Only can do that if I lower the bench height and then I lose the Kennedy cabinet under it, seen in post #1.

 

[brownbagg]

I got the same lathe but mime has a 56 bed

 

[1982fxr]

Can you post a picture like the first one up above so I can see the side view of the motor position?

 

[Fluelikesymptoms]

I am jealous. I suddenly have bad ideas surely to irritate my lovely lady.