1st post and outlet Q

[sands35]

Hi, been lurking a while. Bought a house a few months ago. It was built in 1962.

Long term I'll be putting in a new garage to expand from 2 car to 4-5 car. Also need a place to put the track toy (2000 BMW M Coupe). Need to do windows first though.

The nice thing (electrically) about the house is that it has three 200 amp services into the basement.

The person who built the house in '62 was a CEO of a major company. Modest house by today's standard, but he speced industrial style Square D breakers in the basement. Nice to have service disconnects into the sub panels to make them completely dead when I'm in there.

The bummer is that all of the original outlets do not have grounds in them. Near as I can tell, there have been 2-3 remodels done in the house's history and all the "new" electrical is properly grounded and sized.

The issue is that a lot of the older outlets have had the 2 prong outlets replaced with 3 prong outlets. (this was flagged on the inspection report, so I knew about this going in.) Some dead outlets as well, need to pull new wire for those regardless.

Near as I can tell my options are:
1) Replace the three prong with two prong outlets
2) GFCI the outlets
3) Pull new NM-B wire to the outlets with grounds

The decent thing is that just about all of the no ground outlets are in common areas and will basically only be used for two prong lamps or the vacuum cleaner, not for duty or semi-permanent service with appliances or AV equipment.

There are some outlets where it will be easy for me to pull new wire, so I'll probably just do it so it's done right. The outlets on the exterior walls are another matter though.

Advice?

 

[Teken]

I would fix anything you feel is easy and required. The exterior wall outlets could be retro with a GFCI if you wish.

Comes down to how comfortable you're with this arrangement. Cost is also a factor, but no one ever said you need to do it all at the same time. Do them in small stages, and set mile stones for each year to accomplish and complete.

You have an entire lifetime to complete this task. So, do what you want now and just enjoy that brand new home!

Congrats!

Teken . . .

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Fact is, its rare that lights, chargers, toasters, radios, clocks, etc even have a ground plug on them. You simply don't need the ground inside most rooms in the house. If three prong receptacles were installed previously with only two wire romex supplying them, and they are not actually grounded, you have two choices, one, leave them and placard the receptacles "no ground", or change them out for two prong receptacles, easily found at Lowes or Home Depot.

Charles

 

[Falcon67]

Having pulled wire in an old house more than once - I would look at it real hard. Pick some that may benefit from a grounded plug and re-pull those, then just convert the rest back to two prong outlets. Like Charles says, for most appliances two is plenty. Even my break-your-wrist 1/2 drill has only two prongs. Grounded is great, but no need to do more work than is really necessary. I re-pulled everything in our last house but most was knob-and-tube. There were two drops in the back bedroom that were two conductor Romex and apparently had staples - I just left them as two prong.

Three 200A services? That's a "wow".

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The nice thing (electrically) about the house is that it has three 200 amp services into the basement.

3 200amp services!? :O Are u sure that's not just the rating of the panels? Why on earth would anyone need 600 amps for a house? How many meters do u have? What's the Kva rating of the transformer feeding your house? With that size service u would need @ least 100Kva! I doubt your POCO is supplying that much juice to your house.

 

[koditten]

3 200amp services!? :O Are u sure that's not just the rating of the panels? Why on earth would anyone need 600 amps for a house? How many meters do u have? What's the Kva rating of the transformer feeding your house? With that size service u would need @ least 100Kva! I doubt your POCO is supplying that much juice to your house.

When I saw this I first thought someone had a dope growing system the basement.

I too would like more details. Do you have 3 meters and 3 electrical bills? Was the house ever divided for apartments. More info please.

 

[Mickey O]

Is it all non-metallic or is there metal conduit?

 

[sands35]

Thanks guys! More or less what I figured. Pull new wire for what matters and change the rest to two prong. Just about the only three prong appliances I have are in the kitchen (already re-wired), in the garage or AV equipment. All of that is already done.

It's all either NM-B or the old cloth covered two wire stuff. I've looked at all the older stuff I can see, and the insulation is all intact. Don't want to mess with it if I don't have to though.

Yeah, when we where house shopping, I was sort of amazed at the electrical service. The house also has an electrically heated drive way. My wife and I where joking that we'd turn it on once to see how expensive it was to use, then disconnect it. The "fuse" panel area looks like something out of a machine shop or something. Three feeds, three panels, the driveway sub panel, etc. With all the re-models though the wiring is really inefficient. More or less one 20 amp breaker for 2-3 outlets all over the house.

I made the calls to the power company to understand how they bill. They bill just by what the meter says, no additional charges for more runs to the house (other then the cost of install). House has one meter. I don't know the rating on the meter though.

It has three Square D breaker panels with ~1/0 (? - they look like 200A, but didn't measure. Ends are coated, so I assume AL, but don't know the standard in 1962) feeder wires into each. Each box has a pair of those big 200 amp ~7.5" long fuses and big throw levers for the connect/disconnect. Each disconnect box feeds it's own sub panel.

I'm almost done folding the 3rd panel into the 2nd panel and cleaning up the wiring inside the panel. It was pretty sloppy with no organization inside the panel. It was all to code, but sloppy work. I guess that what's you get with a ~50 year old house that has been through I don't know how many remodels.

The 3rd panel will become the feeder into the future garage eventually.

It's just a house. I won't be running any 480 3-phase mills or anything like that. 230VAC welder or compressor at most. Yeah, I doubt the transformers can supply what the service is capable of drawing.

The house was built by a CEO of a pretty big company though. Really overbuilt, but it's nice to know it was done right. Over framed and zero settling in ~50 years, no foundation cracks that I can find either.

I'll take a pic or two if I remember tonight.

 

[Falcon67]

Watch that cloth covered stuff. After all this time, it may easily flake off. YOU might know not to mess with it, but some critter might not. Our last house had a lot of it still, which was Job 1 to replace. The good thing is that it's almost always just dropped down in the wall to the outlet or switch and can be used as a pull string for new stuff.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The "fuse" panel area looks like something out of a machine shop or something. Three feeds, three panels, the driveway sub panel, etc. With all the re-models though the wiring is really inefficient. More or less one 20 amp breaker for 2-3 outlets all over the house.

I made the calls to the power company to understand how they bill. They bill just by what the meter says, no additional charges for more runs to the house (other then the cost of install). House has one meter. I don't know the rating on the meter though.

It has three Square D breaker panels with ~1/0 (? - they look like 200A, but didn't measure. Ends are coated, so I assume AL, but don't know the standard in 1962) feeder wires into each. Each box has a pair of those big 200 amp ~7.5" long fuses and big throw levers for the connect/disconnect. Each disconnect box feeds it's own sub panel.

I'm almost done folding the 3rd panel into the 2nd panel and cleaning up the wiring inside the panel. It was pretty sloppy with no organization inside the panel. It was all to code, but sloppy work. I guess that what's you get with a ~50 year old house that has been through I don't know how many remodels.

The 3rd panel will become the feeder into the future garage eventually.

It's just a house. I won't be running any 480 3-phase mills or anything like that. 230VAC welder or compressor at most. Yeah, I doubt the transformers can supply what the service is capable of drawing.

The house was built by a CEO of a pretty big company though. Really over built, but it's nice to know it was done right. Over framed and zero settling in ~50 years, no foundation cracks that I can find either.

Ok, so how many service drops do u have? Since u only have 1 meter, I doubt its more than 1 service drop. To check your meter rating look for the letters TA on your meter- TA15 is 100amps and TA30 is 200! And in my experience, I've never seen a residential meter that handles more than 200 amps! Past that, the POCO would be using CTs to meter your load.

You say it was done right? I'm not sure if electrically the house was done right! Sounds like some contractor just oversized and went overboard on everything and took advantage of their customer who had money to throw around!

I am REALLY curious about this setup like a few others are. If you wouldn't mind elaborating a little more, what is the calculated load for this house or each panel? Do you have a lot of high amperage installed equipment/appliances(doubt it!)?

And after the meter, how is each fused disconnect fed? There must be some split bolts somewhere along the line. No way someone can fit three 1/0 cables on a meter main lug! Or do u have individual main breakers feeding each disconnect- which would be really stupid! If I were you, I would change all that out! Its really sloppy like you said and a waste! Of course, someone on here is gonna chime in their 2 cents and say if it ain't broke don't fix it! But if I had that kind of electrical mess/overkill in my house, it would drive me nuts!

 

[madosta]

Yea, let's see some pics!

 

[kschauwe]

Maybe the house is wired for 3 phase

 

[Falcon67]

Hell, he may 6 phases in there.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Maybe the house is wired for 3 phase

It would be horribly unbalanced if he did have 3 phase since the stinger/red/wild leg can't be used for 120v loads. And he said he only has 2 fuses in each disconnect! I don't even think PoCos will run 3 phase to a residence!

 

[sands35]

I'll look at the meter this weekend to see the service rating. 9 for 10 chance it's 200 amps. At least that's what was listed on the sales contracts.

"Done right" = passed inspections for each re-model (told by city inspector that permit and inspection records are on file), the house purchase inspection and I had two electricians quote re-doing all the work to make it "standard" for today's panels. That said, I have found a few errors here and there (12-3 going into separate breakers, double taps, etc.) Nothing that I haven't already corrected.

I'm not going to complain about somebody else spending more money that they needed too. I've seen other 50 year old houses that I would never buy just because of the condition of the house services.

Neither electrician would touch the work. Basically they said it would cost a lot more then it's worth to do. Don't mess with what's not broke. Makes sense to me.

I'm not sure on the history of the house, but it looks like the original house furnace was electric. At least there are some legacy wires that run from the fuse boxes to the location of the furnaces. The furnaces are newer and not original. It might be that nat gas was not in the house when it was built as the gas meter doesn't look "original". The run into the house isn't as integrated as I would expect. But that is just speculation.

I hear you about the old cloth wire. Debating with myself on how to handle it. Likely that I'll replace it when I eventually do a garage so I can buy wire in bulk. It is highly likely that I will not be able to replace all of it as some will just be impossible to get to. But replacing what I can reach will disturb what I can't, creating a problem that doesn't exist.

Pics of the panels:

It's in the basement.

Service comes in the wall into the horizontal box, then up into each fuse panel. IIRC, "Square D Model 3A".

From left to right:
"Main" breaker box
Disconnect #1 for the main box
Disconnect #2 for sub panel A on opposite wall
Disconnect #3 for sub panel B on opposite wall
Two breaker boxes that feed the driveway heaters.

I have not taken the cover off the lower raceway yet to see what's in there.

The wires into the fuse boxes are either 4/0 or 3/0. Little less than 0.5" - but didn't measure. Don't really want to mess around with a ruler in there anyway. I used to work on Locomotives and working around high volt/amp service still gives me the heeby-jeebies. I've seen the results of what that can do to people. ick

The wires from the fuse boxes to the breaker boxes are either 1/0 or 2/0 gauge (didn't measure, but about 3/8" or so in diameter) inside EMT.

Didn't look hard enough to see what the temp rating is on the jackets.

Each box has two 200 amp fuses for L1 and L2 and a ground distribution.

 

[madosta]

Holy ****.

 

[sands35]

Yeah, that's what I said. They guy that built it was CEO, but came up through the manufacturing ranks all the way from the shop floor (doesn't happen that way anymore - too bad for all of us). Anyway, I figured he just liked industrial stuff.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

"Done right" = passed inspections for each re-model (told by city inspector that permit and inspection records are on file)...

That said, I have found a few errors here and there (12-3 going into separate breakers, double taps, etc.) Nothing that I haven't already corrected.

The wires into the fuse boxes are either 4/0 or 3/0. Little less than 0.5"....

The wires from the fuse boxes to the breaker boxes are either 1/0 or 2/0 gauge (didn't measure, but about 3/8" or so in diameter) inside EMT.

Didn't look hard enough to see what the temp rating is on the jackets.

Each box has two 200 amp fuses for L1 and L2 and a ground distribution.

I just caught this- in an earlier post u said it looked like 1/0 al. 1/0 al back then was barely good for 100amps. So I hope that's a typo. 1/0 cu or al will not support 200a, regardless of the temp grade! Arguably though, you probably would never pull 200amps through one panel all at once, depending on your connected load, so this is a moot point!

But Fusing 1/0 wire with 200amp fuses is not DONE RIGHT! The fuses should be lower!

And just because something has passed inspection does NOT mean it was done correctly! Back when I did electrical inspections for NCR, I inspected a "new" 4 year old Mcdonalds restaurant in San Jose & discovered the 4/0 ufer ground cable just laying in the bottom of the MDP panel with half the strands severed. It obviously should have been bonded to the Siemens 1200amp 208Y panel which was LIVE!

I also recently did an electrical inspection on a house where there was no ground rod nor were the water lines bonded. But the wiring was all romex with 3 prong outlets and grounds hooked up on both ends! What was crazy was the inspection sticker was still stuck on the meter main and it had active electrical service! Someone dropped the ball! :/

When u say "12/3 going to separate breakers"; do the breakers have a common handle tie, meaning they will trip together?

 

[sands35]

I understand amp/temp rating on wires and I also clearly stated my assumptions with regard to "done right". Just cause it's inspected doesn't mean it's "right". But the house hasn't burned down in 50 years, so it's not that wrong.

No handle tie - fixed one already, need to get the other one fixed soon.

I looked again and the wires to the subs are 2/0 Cu RHH. Likely the sub only pulls 60-70 amps at running load. Probably 90-100 at startup for the HVAC, but only if both happen to start at the same time. (two HVAC condensers {40 and a 50 amp}, a microwave, misc. plugs and lights, a couple computers, nothing else) The ground wire looks undersized though, I'll need to measure it's diameter and see.

At any, rate, I got the confirmation on my original question. Thanks All!

 

[wyliesdiesels]

@Sands35- Originally u posted that ur ground wire looks like 2 or 4ga. If your service wire is 2/0 cu(which u said it is) then 4ga cu ground is fine according to NEC T250.66!