2-2-2-4 Confusion-Panel Upgrade

[sbarshie]

I'm really confused about what I should replace my current #6 copper garage supply feed with. SER MHF, 4 strand #2 aluminum or regular MHF??

I've read about this allot and I'm more confused than ever, the garage is 50' from my house and I'll need 50' in the house to get to the 200A main panel. I want to do this with one piece of aluminum wire, no connections.

The current garage supply is that black coated 4 wire, #6 copper which I know is not enough for my new compressor, welder and other stuff. I figure I need about 70 amps max in the garage. The compressor is on a 40amp breaker and will not be running at the same time as the welder on a 30amp.

Which one of these should I use, if any:

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electric...nr-_-wire-_-outdoor_wire-_-service_entry-_-na

Keep in mind I want to use aluminum $$, it will be running in my house(basement area) and I alread have 2" conduit in the ground that's supplying the garage now.

I'm confused about SER MHF 2-2-2-4 and if I can use that inside?
Help-Thanks!!

 

[justsam]

Do not just add the breaker sizes to come up with demand.

Your welder will seldom be drawing it's max and the compressor of course only draws current when it is operating.

It is not clear to me what your existing 6ga is but you may well be fine with what you have unless there are more high consumers, such as A/C that you will be adding.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The shelf label will say MHF on it. The wire will be marked as in the pic above. In order to go inside a building it will have to have the RHH marking on it, but since it is marked as USE-2 it can be used for direct bury. It can also be run in a conduit underground due to the RHW marking. This is how Southwire marks their MHF.

Edit: there are many other wire types/markings that are allowed in a building, but the other markings are not typically found on MHF. The combination above it what is typical for MHF.

Do not use wire that is ONLY marked USE-2 and nothing else. Do not use wire that is marked URD and nothing else.

Physically inspect the wire for the markings on it. Do not accept store clerk assertions that URD is ok, it is not, it cannot enter a building unless it has other markings that are allowed to enter the building. Same with USE-2.

MHF is a multi-marked wire that is multipurpose. The wire itself will not be marked MHF, but will have the other markings on it.

Measure carefully from panel to panel, over the exact routing you will be using, and then allow several feet of excess for bending and forming, and trimming.

Charles

 

[pattenp]

Use 2-2-2-4 Mobile Home Feeder (MHF), that's good to supply up to 90A. The MHF can go from panel to panel (one piece). MHF inside the structures has to be in conduit. SER cannot be used underground in conduit. URD is another type of cable and it is not to be run inside of the structure, it has to be terminated outside. If you use URD outside you will switch to SER for the inside by using junction boxes.

 

[sbarshie]

I have a new 5hp compressor (Quincy QT) in the mail that will always be on demand whan needed. I don't plan to ever shut it off. I also have a fridge, at least (6) 100w lights, 6 florescent lights then whatever tools I'll be using.

Basically the current garage is a 40amp breaker in the main panel. If I have to mount a dedicated 40amp breaker in the garage panel, it will constantly be tripping in the house when the compressor kicks on and I'm doing other stuff.

Ideally I'd like to upgrade this one time. My old garage (different house) had a 60amp sub and that never tripped, but my old compressor was smaller. Using that as a referane I figured going to 70a would make sense because all of my tools and usage will be the same.

 

[pattenp]

If you have a Lowes near you see if they carry the 2-2-2-4 MHF. The last time I checked the Lows near me had it in store for $1.47 a foot.

 

[sbarshie]

Use 2-2-2-4 Mobile Home Feeder (MHF), that's good to supply up to 90A. The MHF can go from panel to panel (one piece). MHF inside the structures has to be in conduit. SER cannot be used underground in conduit. URD is another type of cable and it is not to be run inside of the structure, it has to be terminated outside. If you use URD outside you will switch to SER for the inside by using junction boxes.

This was basically what I determined, from 50 different threads and needed confirmation, thanks.

However is there a wire I could run underground in conduit from the house to the garage and also run inside the house without conduit?
I know I'm being picky I just don't want to add conduit inside if possible.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Southwire spec sheet

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet15

This
Charles

 

[pattenp]

There is only one type that I know of and that's PVC jacketed Alumaflex.
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet265

This was basically what I determined, from 50 different threads and needed confirmation, thanks.

However is there a wire I could run underground in conduit from the house to the garage and also run inside the house without conduit?
I know I'm being picky I just don't want to add conduit inside if possible.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I'm really confused about what I should replace my current #6 copper garage supply feed with. SER MHF, 4 strand #2 aluminum or regular MHF??

I've read about this allot and I'm more confused than ever, the garage is 50' from my house and I'll need 50' in the house to get to the 200A main panel. I want to do this with one piece of aluminum wire, no connections.

The current garage supply is that black coated 4 wire, #6 copper which I know is not enough for my new compressor, welder and other stuff. I figure I need about 70 amps max in the garage. The compressor is on a 40amp breaker and will not be running at the same time as the welder on a 30amp.

Which one of these should I use, if any:

http://www.homedepot.com/b/Electric...nr-_-wire-_-outdoor_wire-_-service_entry-_-na

Keep in mind I want to use aluminum $$, it will be running in my house(basement area) and I alread have 2" conduit in the ground that's supplying the garage now.

I'm confused about SER MHF 2-2-2-4 and if I can use that inside?
Help-Thanks!!

Just an FYI and not to confuse you more but SER and MHF are 2 different things. SER has an outer jacket and cannot go underground whereas MHF has no outer jacket and can go underground!

There is only one type that I know of and that's PVC jacketed Alumaflex.
http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet265

Thats stuff must be expensive!!

 

[04fivefour]

http://www.lowes.com/pd_70262-295-28714401_0__?productId=3129329&Ntt=2%2F0&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3D2%252F0&facetInfo=

$0.46 a ft

 

[pattenp]

http://www.lowes.com/pd_70262-295-28714401_0__?productId=3129329&Ntt=2%2F0&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3D2%252F0&facetInfo=

$0.46 a ft

That's 4/0-4/0-4/0-2 and is $3.83 a foot. Product ID:70262



*

 

[wyliesdiesels]

http://www.lowes.com/pd_70262-295-28714401_0__?productId=3129329&Ntt=2%2F0&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3D2%252F0&facetInfo=

$0.46 a ft

Huh? I thought we were takin #2 MHF... And .46/ft is a super deal for that. My lowes is $3.83...

 

[79firebird]

Alumaflex here in canada is called teck cable one thing i like about it is it can be ran from panel to out side along the wall underground etc and no need to put it in pvc or anything. Try a whosaler way cheaper for wire for my hottub 40amp home depot wanted $500 local supply place was $250

 

[theoldwizard1]

I have a new 5hp compressor (Quincy QT) in the mail that will always be on demand whan needed. I don't plan to ever shut it off. I also have a fridge, at least (6) 100w lights, 6 florescent lights then whatever tools I'll be using.

Basically the current garage is a 40amp breaker in the main panel. If I have to mount a dedicated 40amp breaker in the garage panel, it will constantly be tripping in the house when the compressor kicks on and I'm doing other stuff.

#6 copper is good for 50A at 100'.

If you are willing to turn your compressor off when welding, you will never have a problem.

 

[Falcon67]

This was basically what I determined, from 50 different threads and needed confirmation, thanks.

However is there a wire I could run underground in conduit from the house to the garage and also run inside the house without conduit?
I know I'm being picky I just don't want to add conduit inside if possible.

]

Fwiw - I ran 2-2-2-4 and asked the local about running it through the house attic and the response was "no problem". Your local may vary. The stuff I bought was coded for everything.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

#6 copper is good for 50A at 100'.

If you are willing to turn your compressor off when welding, you will never have a problem.

How do u figure? #6 NM is rated at 55a and THHN 65a both of which can be done with low voltage drop at 100'...

]

Fwiw - I ran 2-2-2-4 and asked the local about running it through the house attic and the response was "no problem". Your local may vary. The stuff I bought was coded for everything.

Needs to be in conduit though...

 

[sbarshie]

#6 copper is good for 50A at 100'.

If you are willing to turn your compressor off when welding, you will never have a problem.

If this is true, I may not do anything unless I start poping the main breaker in the house. I can always pull new wire in the winter. This sounds like it will go on the back burner until the barn addition is complete.
Thanks

 

[sublimate]

I'd certainly wait until you find your current setup is a problem before upgrading.

If you plan to get a plasma cutter that MAY be a problem since you'll need air at the same time the plasma is running. But even that might work since you'll have an 80 gal tank.

 

[pattenp]

If this is true, I may not do anything unless I start poping the main breaker in the house. I can always pull new wire in the winter. This sounds like it will go on the back burner until the barn addition is complete.
Thanks

Sounds like you currently have the wrong type cable feeding the garage. In your first post you said the #6 is a 4 wire black coated (sheathed/jacketed?) cable which sounds like NM-b cable. If it is NM-b then that cable is not allowed by NEC to be placed underground, even in conduit.


*

 

[04fivefour]

That's 4/0-4/0-4/0-2 and is $3.83 a foot. Product ID:70262



*

Here in Dayton OH they have it listed for .46 a ft. I just ran this to feed my sub panel two weeks ago and I paid 1.84 a foot but I called them yesterday and they have a 30 day price guarantee. I know it's not 2-2-2-4 but IMHO there is nothing wrong with overkill.

 

[pattenp]

Here in Dayton OH they have it listed for .46 a ft. I just ran this to feed my sub panel two weeks ago and I paid 1.84 a foot but I called them yesterday and they have a 30 day price guarantee. I know it's not 2-2-2-4 but IMHO there is nothing wrong with overkill.

What size breaker are you using to feed your sub panel?

 

[04fivefour]

100 amp

 

[pattenp]

100 amp

How did you get 4/0 to fit in a 100A breaker?

 

[04fivefour]

Terminal adapter (I'm not sure of the actual name of them in the electrician world)

 

[pattenp]

Terminal adapter (I'm not sure of the actual name of them in the electrician world)

That's good. I was hoping you didn't trim down the conductors to fit. Seen that done before and it can cause arcing.

I see that the Dayton Lowe's does have it listed as $0.46 a foot. Must be on clearance because that's a hell of a good price. I bet it was fun running it to your sub panel.

 

[Highbeam]

If this is true, I may not do anything unless I start poping the main breaker in the house. I can always pull new wire in the winter. This sounds like it will go on the back burner until the barn addition is complete.
Thanks

It is true. I have 6 gauge copper to the subpanel over 100' from the main panel on a 60 amp breaker. Why did you use a 40 amp breaker? 20 more amps is like a 50% upgrade.

 

[04fivefour]

That's good. I was hoping you didn't trim down the conductors to fit. Seen that done before and it can cause arcing.

I see that the Dayton Lowe's does have it listed as $0.46 a foot. Must be on clearance because that's a hell of a good price. I bet it was fun running it to your sub panel.

If by "Fun" you mean a "PITA" you are right!

Getting it through about 75ft of sch80 emt was a task.

 

[Bib Overalls]

I have 70 amps to my shop. I thought that would be fine. But then I added a heat pump and a rotary phase converter along with a compressor, lathe, mill, lots of lights, etc. My 70 amp breaker pops when the heat pump comes on while we are welding. Going to upgrade to 100 amps at some near point. But I wish 320 had been available here when we built.

 

[falcon64]

The shelf label will say MHF on it. The wire will be marked as in the pic above. In order to go inside a building it will have to have the RHH marking on it, but since it is marked as USE-2 it can be used for direct bury. It can also be run in a conduit underground due to the RHW marking. This is how Southwire marks their MHF.

Edit: there are many other wire types/markings that are allowed in a building, but the other markings are not typically found on MHF. The combination above it what is typical for MHF.

Do not use wire that is ONLY marked USE-2 and nothing else. Do not use wire that is marked URD and nothing else.

Physically inspect the wire for the markings on it. Do not accept store clerk assertions that URD is ok, it is not, it cannot enter a building unless it has other markings that are allowed to enter the building. Same with USE-2.

MHF is a multi-marked wire that is multipurpose. The wire itself will not be marked MHF, but will have the other markings on it.

Measure carefully from panel to panel, over the exact routing you will be using, and then allow several feet of excess for bending and forming, and trimming.

Charles

So can this wire be run inside without conduit? Is it good for 90 amp breaker and the main panel or a full 100amp?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So can this wire be run inside without conduit? Is it good for 90 amp breaker and the main panel or a full 100amp?

No, it needs to be in conduit inside because it has no outer sheath.

And when ran as a branch feeder, it is limited to 90a.
When used as a feeder supplying the entire load of a dwelling, then it can be breakered @ 100a...

 

[falcon64]

I just found some Southwire #2 AWG aluminum XHHW for .30 cents a foot!! Since i planned on using conduit anyway this is a great deal for this wire versus the MHF which is $1.62 a sq ft. At less than 150 foot of wire this should be good for my needs correct? The biggest amp draw in my show will be an air compressor or a mig welder.

 

[laser3kw]

That's good. I was hoping you didn't trim down the conductors to fit

that would be .....bad?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I just found some Southwire #2 AWG aluminum XHHW for .30 cents a foot!! Since i planned on using conduit anyway this is a great deal for this wire versus the MHF which is $1.62 a sq ft. At less than 150 foot of wire this should be good for my needs correct? The biggest amp draw in my show will be an air compressor or a mig welder.

Man killer deal!

that would be .....bad?

Are u agreeing or questioning?

 

[laser3kw]

Are u agreeing or questioning?

punctuating
I cringe when I here stuff like that. I know it happens but it shouldn't.