2/2/2/4 ser

[flatwins]

Hi all. I recently bought a place with a 24x24 shop\garage that lies 115' from the main house. It currently has electric to it but I want to beef it up so I can run my TIG welder out there. I've been researching several forums and it seems the general consensus is that I need to run 2/2/2/4 aluminum wire to a 100 amp subpanel in the shop. Surprisingly enough, the wire is more reasonable in cost that I originally anticipated and I plan to dig up the existing wire, run conduit and get started on this thing.

Does the 2/2/2/4 SER type wire sound like it will do the trick for my length of run? Lowe's has this listed as "mobile home" wire, btw.

thanks!
Steve
Tulsa, OK

 

[hillbill9889]

I just had a similar install and I went with 1/1/1/3 ser instead. The voltage drop over the 100 feet concerned me so went with the slightly larger cable.

 

[sberry]

What tig welder?

 

[flatwins]

What tig welder?

It's a Lincoln Precision TIG 185. I've had it installed with a 50 amp receptacle at two previous locations and it has done fine.

 

[walrus]

2224 ser isn't legal for 100 amp subpanel if on 2008 code or newer. Its only good for 75 amps

 

[Norcal]

2224 ser isn't legal for 100 amp subpanel if on 2008 code or newer. Its only good for 75 amps

SER is not suitable for underground use,also....

 

[flatwins]

SER is not suitable for underground use,also....

Man this stuff is confusing. Anyone have a recommendation on what wire I need?

 

[pattenp]

You need "USE" like this-- http://www.southwire.com/products/MobileHmFeeder.htm

 

[hillbill9889]

Or you just run the SER in conduit. Schedule 40 PVC 1.5 inch works and is cheap.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

The Lowes "mobile home feeder" is triplexed (or is it "quadplexed"? two hots, a neutral and a ground), unjacketed wires intended for direct burial, dual rated, probably made by Southwire, if it is the four twisted wires intended for direct burial. Haven't seen a jacketed SER down here that they call "mobile home feeder".

2224 ser isn't legal for 100 amp subpanel if on 2008 code or newer. Its only good for 75 amps

Its not the panel, he could use a 200 amp panel if he wanted, its the breaker at the origination of the feeder in his house panel that cannot be 100 amp. If this is triplex, direct burial 2224, then 310.16 says its good for 90 amps at 75 degrees C.

Or you just run the SER in conduit. Schedule 40 PVC 1.5 inch works and is cheap.

Don't think you can put jacketed SER underground, in a conduit or otherwise, since underground conduit is considered a wet location and SER is not rated for a wet location. You could put the triplexed/quadplexed USE or USE-2 in a conduit and maintain the 90 amp rating.

Charles

 

[Aceman]

SE, SER, SEU. Allowed inside or outside but not underground.

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet273

Mobile home feeder. Allowed inside/outside/underground. Inside a bulding, it must be in conduit.

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet15

 

[flatwins]

SE, SER, SEU. Allowed inside or outside but not underground.

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet273

Mobile home feeder. Allowed inside/outside/underground. Inside a bulding, it must be in conduit.

http://www.southwire.com/ProductCatalog/XTEInterfaceServlet?contentKey=prodcatsheet15

I had heard this type of wire referred to as SER type on some other forums but it may have been the incorrect use of the term. But Aceman, the link to the Mobile home feeder wire looks just like the stuff Lowe's has. I will run it in PVC conduit. But is this the correct type and rating of wire for this application?

The biggest draw in the shop would be the welder. The rest will be probably 10 outlets, and normal overhead lighting. Normal 110v shop tools: 9x20 lathe, mini mill, etc.

Thanks all!

 

[sberry]

You will be fine with the 2, the only time there will be any real load it the welder and thats only half and intermittent, I have put in a bunch of these over the years usually ahead of a 60A breaker and never,,, never had one call back due to overload trip.

 

[flatwins]

You need "USE" like this-- http://www.southwire.com/products/MobileHmFeeder.htm

Thanks- Yep, that looks just like the stuff Lowe's has. Fairly reasonable too at $2.18/ft.

You will be fine with the 2, the only time there will be any real load it the welder and thats only half and intermittent, I have put in a bunch of these over the years usually ahead of a 60A breaker and never,,, never had one call back due to overload trip.

Good info. Thanks!

 

[pattenp]

Thanks- Yep, that looks just like the stuff Lowe's has. Fairly reasonable too at $2.18/ft.

You may want to check with an electrical supplier. The last I purchased was only around $1.29 a foot for 2-2-2-4 AL and $0.98 for 2-2-4-6 AL.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I put 100 amp panel in my barn, I was 225' from the main 200 amp panel. 170' underground and the rest accross the basement.
for the underground i used 3 2/0 triplex and 1 #2 "use" wire direct burial and when I got into the house I used 4 wire ser to the panel 3 2/0 and 1#2.

 

[mrb]

Or you just run the SER in conduit. Schedule 40 PVC 1.5 inch works and is cheap.

you cant run SER underground in conduit. its not listed for wet location.

 

[Falcon67]

you cant run SER underground in conduit. its not listed for wet location.

What he said - per 2008. I just read up on that and it looks like NEC put a stop to the massive internet debate about wet/underground/etc as related to SER. The restrictions were a bit ambiguous before, now it's a solid "no" - not in conduit, wax paper, aluminum foil, fish paper - nothing. As also noted here, they changed the conductor rating too.

Some info here also: http://www.ecmag.com/?fa=article&articleID=9229

 

[mrb]

What he said - per 2008. I just read up on that and it looks like NEC put a stop to the massive internet debate about wet/underground/etc as related to SER. The restrictions were a bit ambiguous before, now it's a solid "no". As also noted here, they changed the conductor rating too.

its pretty straightforward and always has been. the inside of an underground conduit is a wet location and anything inside it has to be listed for use in a wet location. The massive internet debates (such as using #2AL for 100 amps) seem to always be an attempt to justify something that does not meet code, usually because it is cheaper.

 

[Falcon67]

Thats kinda what I got from the long postings. "I done that for years, never been called on it", "inspector didn't say nuthin'" and "it ain't wet in conduit", etc. It's now at least spelled out in big letters.

 

[flatwins]

The "USE" Mobile Home feeder states that it is suitable for direct burial though I will run it through conduit. Thinking about going that route. Anyone see any issues with that wire?

thanks again-

 

[pattenp]

No issues if installed correctly. Just be sure to take care and not nick the wire cover when pulling through conduit because AL wire will oxidize quickly if exposed in a wet location. Also use anti oxidation paste on the wire at connection points.

 

[sberry]

You may want to check with an electrical supplier. The last I purchased was only around $1.29 a foot for 2-2-2-4 AL and $0.98 for 2-2-4-6 AL.

Yje last I bought i shopped around as the stores were close together. Lowes had the 4 neutral and Home D had it with the full size 2 for less money. I also bought the whole roll and put the rest on the shelf.

 

[CaptainRay]

Checking I found that houses and most shops typically use single phase. Three phase is used by shops that have to supply power for heavy equipment/machinery that use big motors.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_..._into_single-phase_for_home_use#ixzz1OG5duGvd

2/2/2/4 wire is (100 amp) trailer house wire, and 4/4/4/2 is trailer house wire, not usually needed for a shop. I've found the people at Home Depot and Lowe's electrical department pretty knowledgeable and helpful. 100 amp service would normally need 2/2/4 and 200 amp service 4/4/2 from the research I have done.

My shop is 240 feet from the electric pole, which means a total of 254 feet of wire will be needed to reach the meter on the pole and the panel in the shop . I have a 200 amp service panel for the shop. I've talked to several experienced electricians that say I will need to use 4-4-2 (200 amp) aluminum wire (single pahse) for the shop.

There is also a calculator you can use to check on minimum size wire you will need for any given situation. http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

4-4-2 (200 amp wire) is $3.10 a foot at Lowe's. I wish had put my shop closer to the pole.

 

[Norcal]

I guess I'm missing something with 2-2-2-4 wire and two and three phase for a shop or house.

2-2-4 aluminum wire which is $1.69 a foot at Home Deopt. 2-2-2-4 aluminum wire is $3.19 a foot. Copper wire is way out of my budget and major overkill.

Two phase is obsolete, most residences have 120/240V single phase.


#2 AWG aluminum is only good for 90 amperes as a subfeed does not meet the criteria set forth in the NEC allowing one to undersize it for 100A,plus a subfeed to a outbuilding will require a 4-wire feed if the area is on the 2008 NEC or later.

 

[Aceman]

I guess I'm missing something with 2-2-2-4 wire and two and three phase for a shop or house. Houses and most shops typically use single phase. Three phase is used by shops that have to supply power for heavy equipment/machinery that use big motors.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_..._into_single-phase_for_home_use#ixzz1OG5duGvd

My shop is 240 feet from the electric pole, which means a total of 254 feet of wire will be needed to reach the meter on the pole and the panel in the shop . I have a 220 amp service panel for the shop. I've talked to several experienced electricians that say I only need 2-2-4 aluminum wire (single pahse) for the shop.

There is also a calculator you can use to determine what size wire you will need for any given situation. http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

2-2-4 aluminum wire which is $1.69 a foot at Home Deopt. 2-2-2-4 aluminum wire is $3.19 a foot. Copper wire is way out of my budget and major overkill.

Is there a main breaker or fused disconnect on the pole? Or just the meter?

 

[thrifty bill]

2/2/4 means the only thing you will have is 120v in that garage. No thanks.

240 is still single phase.

 

[pattenp]

I guess I'm missing something with 2-2-2-4 wire and two and three phase for a shop or house.

Where are you getting two and three phase from? Four wire feeder for a subpanel is required to supply both 240v and 120V. The 2-2-2-4 is two #2's for the hots and one #2 for the neutral and one #4 for the ground.

 

[Norcal]

Where are you getting two and three phase from? Four wire feeder for a subpanel is required to supply both 240v and 120V. The 2-2-2-4 is two #2's for the hots and one #2 for the neutral and one #4 for the ground.

From this post.

I guess I'm missing something with 2-2-2-4 wire and two and three phase for a shop or house. Houses and most shops typically use single phase. Three phase is used by shops that have to supply power for heavy equipment/machinery that use big motors.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_does_..._into_single-phase_for_home_use#ixzz1OG5duGvd

My shop is 240 feet from the electric pole, which means a total of 254 feet of wire will be needed to reach the meter on the pole and the panel in the shop . I have a 220 amp service panel for the shop. I've talked to several experienced electricians that say I only need 2-2-4 aluminum wire (single pahse) for the shop.

There is also a calculator you can use to determine what size wire you will need for any given situation. http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

2-2-4 aluminum wire which is $1.69 a foot at Home Deopt. 2-2-2-4 aluminum wire is $3.19 a foot. Copper wire is way out of my budget and major overkill.

 

[pattenp]

From this post.

I confess..... I didn't read the "Read more" link to Wiki.

 

[fefarms]

CaptainRay has different circumstances than the original poster.

In his case he should be able to use a 3 wire service connection instead of a 4 wire feeder connection (since the panel in the shop is fed from the meter on the pole). This would allow the 2/2/4 wire to be used for a 240/120 single-phase service, vs. 2/2/2/4

The bad news is that he needs a separate service disconnect means, as the 220 amp breaker in his main panel is too large for the ampacity of the wires.

The worse news is that 254 feet is a LONG way for service conductors. Voltage drop will exceed 3% at a total of just 40 amps of 240 volt load. He needs to go to 3/0 aluminum to support 90 amps at a 3% drop.

It would work better to get the utility company to put another pole and transformer close to the shop.

 

[CaptainRay]

Found a wire size calculator the might be of interest to those trying to figure this stuff out... http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html

Also a voltage drop calculator, was very helpful in figuring some concerns I had...
http://www.csgnetwork.com/voltagedropcalc.html

Most shops and homes use single phase - multi-phase wiring is used for big shops with inustrial equipment with big motors...

 

[Aceman]

You would be doing yourself a favor Captain Ray to ask your wiring questions on here, rather than taking the word of a Home Depot employee. There are a few electricians on here who browse the site off and on as well as a few well informed diy'ers who can answer your questions more correctly than a box store employee.

A lot of problems have been caught as well as prevented by posting on here.

FYI, don't use ANY online wire size tables. They're junk and don't take insulation type as well as installation conditions into account.

 

[ixlr8]

You would be doing yourself a favor Captain Ray to ask your wiring questions on here, rather than taking the word of a Home Depot employee. There are a few electricians on here who browse the site off and on as well as a few well informed diy'ers who can answer your questions more correctly than a box store employee.

Having spent some time today at HD and Slowes... I have to agree with this, both of them recommended the 2/2/2/4 SER to get power from my home to my shop. They were surprised, confused, when I explained that the latest codes expressly said SER could not be buried in conduit.

FYI, don't use ANY online wire size tables. They're junk and don't take insulation type as well as installation conditions into account.

I thought this site did a reasonable job with calculations;
http://www.electrician2.com/calculators/wireocpd_ver_1.html
It seemed to take into account wire types/sizes/insulation, or am I wrong?