2 wire 220V to 2 wire 120V

[Tscott]

Alright guys, I have a bit of a snafu. Part of the plan while running conduit to the new shop was to redo a few little things on the property that needed to be done. One of these issues was to feed the existing well from the house instead of the meter on a pole barn that is going to be removed. I also wanted to run a line from the well to the fence to power a gate opener. I must have shut my brain off when I came up with this one because the service to the well is 220V and the outlet at the gate needs to be 120V. The house has an outlet box outside that is going to be used for the well. This box has 2 wire (1 black hot, 1 white hot, and a green ground) 220V to it. This will feed the well fine, but then how do I take only 120V to the fence without a third wire (neutral)?

I could just run 3 wires from the well to the fence, and connect the neutral to ground at the well, but I am pretty sure that is not acceptable to the code. Any thoughts?

Also, there is really no was to get a neutral wire to the well from the main panel. I would rather get a second battery for the gate and add another solar cell.

Tom

 

[lametec]

You can use a stepdown transformer.

 

[Tscott]

Yeah I could, but I think it would be cheaper to add a second battery to the opener.

Tom

 

[lametec]

Batteries need replacing after a while, though. A stepdown should be forever.

How much power does the opener draw? If it's just powering a trickle charger for the battery, you can get a step down transformer for $20 that'll handle that.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

I'm not a code geek or an electrician (Charles, are you out there???) but you should be able to take one side of your 220 hot (black) plus the green neutral (remark as white) out to the gate and drive a couple of new ground rods at the gate to use as the ground.

This should give you one hot leg (black) one neutral leg (white that is run from the green ground) and a new (bare) ground wire located at the gate.

 

[Tscott]

I'm not a code geek or an electrician (Charles, are you out there???) but you should be able to take one side of your 220 hot (black) plus the green neutral (remark as white) out to the gate and drive a couple of new ground rods at the gate to use as the ground.

This should give you one hot leg (black) one neutral leg (white that is run from the green ground) and a new (bare) ground wire located at the gate.

Yeah, that would work and that may end up being the way I go but I was curious of the code issues involved. Although it will never be inspected by anyone but me so any way I want to do it is ok as long as it is safe.


Tom

 

[wineslob]

Alright guys, I have a bit of a snafu. Part of the plan while running conduit to the new shop was to redo a few little things on the property that needed to be done. One of these issues was to feed the existing well from the house instead of the meter on a pole barn that is going to be removed. I also wanted to run a line from the well to the fence to power a gate opener. I must have shut my brain off when I came up with this one because the service to the well is 220V and the outlet at the gate needs to be 120V. The house has an outlet box outside that is going to be used for the well. This box has 2 wire (1 black hot, 1 white hot, and a green ground) 220V to it. This will feed the well fine, but then how do I take only 120V to the fence without a third wire (neutral)?

I could just run 3 wires from the well to the fence, and connect the neutral to ground at the well, but I am pretty sure that is not acceptable to the code. Any thoughts?

Also, there is really no was to get a neutral wire to the well from the main panel. I would rather get a second battery for the gate and add another solar cell.

Tom

Thats neutral, or at least better be! "Hot" wires are never white.

220v is two "hot" wires with a ground. 120V is one "hot" wire(any color but white) with a neutral and ground, as far as household wiring is concerned.


Sometimes a colored wire can be wrapped with white tape (on each end) when it is used as a neutral.
If your local codes allow it you might be able to put in a ground rod and use that as neutral/ground, as both are really the same but separated in the panel by strips.

 

[VHF]

Tapping the ground to use as a neutral is a bad idea because you are now placing current on the grounding conductor which should never conduct current in normal operation.

Either go all solar or get a 240VAC power supply or charger for the gate opener.

 

[rockwithjason]

you will be over loading one leg of the well feed if you do that. besides its just plain bad practice. you would have to set a panel there to use the ground rods for your grounding conductor and depending on the conditions you may still have to have a grounding conductor from the main to the sub anyway. no the only real solution here is to bury additional cable or pull additional wires into conduit if that is how you ran it. will the other stuff work? probably but the ground rod deal can cause problems that you never dreamed of.

I'm not a code geek or an electrician (Charles, are you out there???) but you should be able to take one side of your 220 hot (black) plus the green neutral (remark as white) out to the gate and drive a couple of new ground rods at the gate to use as the ground.

This should give you one hot leg (black) one neutral leg (white that is run from the green ground) and a new (bare) ground wire located at the gate.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

you will be over loading one leg of the well feed if you do that. besides its just plain bad practice. you would have to set a panel there to use the ground rods for your grounding conductor and depending on the conditions you may still have to have a grounding conductor from the main to the sub anyway. no the only real solution here is to bury additional cable or pull additional wires into conduit if that is how you ran it. will the other stuff work? probably but the ground rod deal can cause problems that you never dreamed of.

If he set a small sub panel (with a small main breaker) at the well, drove a ground rod and set up the panel with the neutral from the house, (2) 110 legs from the house and the ground established at the sub panel and then ran his 110v wiring to the gate on one breaker and the well pump from a double pole breaker, would that make a difference?

I can't see a small trickle charger causing that much of a load differential in the 2 110v legs going back to the house. He is not opening the gate with a 110v motor, he is just charging the battery from what I understand.

 

[mrb]

If he set a small sub panel (with a small main breaker) at the well, drove a ground rod and set up the panel with the neutral from the house, (2) 110 legs from the house and the ground established at the sub panel and then ran his 110v wiring to the gate on one breaker and the well pump from a double pole breaker, would that make a difference?

the short answer is no.

best thing to do here is get a small transformer, or locate a 240v supply for the gate opener.

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

mrb,

I really am curious on this one. Is there a quick explanation for us non-electrician types on why doing something like this is wrong or would I need a EE degree? Any day that I can learn something new is a day that is not wasted. At this stage of my life, I don't have that many left to waste...

 

[mrb]

mrb,

I really am curious on this one. Is there a quick explanation for us non-electrician types on why doing something like this is wrong or would I need a EE degree? Any day that I can learn something new is a day that is not wasted. At this stage of my life, I don't have that many left to waste...

the simple version is this:
the purpose of the ground is to clear a fault (return current to the source during a short circuit so the breaker trips or fuse blows) in normal operation the ground carries no current.

the neutral carries current, and if it becomes disconnected the load end will be energized and can shock you.

Beyond the main bonding jumper at the service, neutral and ground should be kept seperate.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

I would think it would be possible to find a 240v trickle charger, with a little effort. From reading this, my understanding is that the gate is operated by a low voltage motor (12v ?) and driven by a battery. The OPs desire is to put a trickle charger on it rather than use a solar charger, which may not keep it charged.

Charles

 

[Stuart in MN]

Sure, there are battery chargers that run on 240vac. Here's one from Battery Tender selling for $56.00: http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-chargers/12-volt/multi-volt-input/BTI022-0139.html

 

[GeorgiaHybrid]

the simple version is this:
the purpose of the ground is to clear a fault (return current to the source during a short circuit so the breaker trips or fuse blows) in normal operation the ground carries no current.

the neutral carries current, and if it becomes disconnected the load end will be energized and can shock you.

Beyond the main bonding jumper at the service, neutral and ground should be kept seperate.

Thanks for the explanation. It seems that a LOT of folks in this county have things wired a "little bit" wrong. There are quite a few that I know of that have wired the barn or garage by running 2 hots and a neutral out to a sub panel and adding a ground wire at that point. After reading your response, that method would cover something happening after that point but the wiring from the main panel to the sub panel is not protected in the case of a short circuit. Oops....

Today has not been a total loss.....

 

[Aceman]

We've had a solar installation utilizing a single battery running a sliding gate for a couple years now with no issues. I don't think they've even replaced the battery yet. It gets opened and shut once per day 7/365.

I believe it's a Liftmaster.

 

[mrb]

what kind of gate opener is the OP using? I worked on an Elite unit which was battery based, the charging system was part of the circuit board in the operator control box, and was supplied via a 24vac transformer. If thats the case here, this would be super easy...

 

[Tscott]

what kind of gate opener is the OP using? I worked on an Elite unit which was battery based, the charging system was part of the circuit board in the operator control box, and was supplied via a 24vac transformer. If thats the case here, this would be super easy...

Its a GTO gate opener, and I do believe this is the way it is set up. I need to check the supplied transformer later to check the low side voltage. There are other reasons to run only 120 VAC to the gate. The wife someday would like lights there, and it would be nice to have an outlet if needed. I I may be able to pull 2 circuits to the well location with a little extra work. One circuit will be for the well and will be the 2 wire 220 VAC and the second circuit will be from a sub panel mounted on a near by pole barn and will supply the well location with 2 wire 120 VAC which will then continue on to the gate location in the conduit I've already installed. It will be a little more work but heh what you gonna do?

Tom

 

[rabidsquirrel]

Why is this spam bot trying to reach a certain level of posts?

 

[Norcal]

I'm not a code geek or an electrician (Charles, are you out there???) but you should be able to take one side of your 220 hot (black) plus the green neutral (remark as white) out to the gate and drive a couple of new ground rods at the gate to use as the ground.

This should give you one hot leg (black) one neutral leg (white that is run from the green ground) and a new (bare) ground wire located at the gate.

That is a very good way to kill someone, a fault will not be able to be cleared by relying on rods for grounding.

 

[Alchymist]

There are two ways to install an electrical circuit - code compliant and not code compliant. Some of the methods and restrictions may at times seem stupid or unnecessary, but they are there for a reason.

There are many cases where something can be wired not code compliant, and will work just fine, perhaps even 99 times out of 100. But there is always the 100th case, where circumstances conspire to injure or kill someone, or cause extensive damage. The code is a best effort to protect against that 100th case.

That being said, there is also the inspector from the AHJ who can place his own "interpretation" on the code, and some can occasional make some really asinine decisions.

Some of the suggestions offered here are dangerous, some just poor practice, and some are good. The good ones are noticeably aligned with the NEC code. Wonder why that is?

 

[Alchymist]

I'm not a code geek or an electrician (Charles, are you out there???) but you should be able to take one side of your 220 hot (black) plus the green neutral (remark as white) out to the gate and drive a couple of new ground rods at the gate to use as the ground.

This should give you one hot leg (black) one neutral leg (white that is run from the green ground) and a new (bare) ground wire located at the gate.

Remarking/re purposing that green wire is wrong on several levels. First it's not allowed by code, second (and more importantly) the ground wire is usually one gauge lighter than the current carrying conductors.

 

[porcupine73]

It's already been mentioned, but some battery chargers may accept 240VAC even if sold as 120VAC, if they use a switching power supply. Like many laptop chargers will say something like 100VAC-240VAC 50Hz-60Hz. So you'd just need a 240VAC cord for it then there could be a 240VAC outlet at the gate. Of course on a gate it is always nice to have a battery backup for use during inconvenient power outages.