mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
The utility has a completely different set of rules and the NEC that we follow does not apply
200 amp question
- Thread starter BurtEggley
- Start date
Huh?
Unless you misunderstood, maybe time to find a new electrician....
Also, have you ever posted WHY you need 200a?
- Aside from really just upgrading ampacity to say I have X, you really should look at your current loads and ask what could you add that SIMULTANEOUSLY needs to operate at the same time to create peaks and sustained loads.
- Put an energy monitor on the mains and really learn what you loads are today. (Go buy one. You can justify it, as it may eliminate a big expenditure.) You may be very surprised at how little power you draw at any one time. You have gas, so I'll assume large electrical loads will remain low. Your dryer could even change out to gas.
- For certain you need more branch circuit space. Even a sub panel located elsewhere could be more beneficial than this location and allow you to offload circuits from this panel, too.
- I do suggest you ditch this old GE panel anyway.
- If your POCO isn't going to require the lateral to be increased for a larger service (b/c you don't have an increase in load), then hang on to your money. Otherwise, all you are doing is digging up the place, filling it back in, making a bunch of dust and noise for what useful gain?
- Go on your POCO's website and get the residential service requirements. It's a pdf doc. From this you will learn who is responsible for what, minimum sizes, distances, allowed part numbers, whether an existing conduit could be re-used, etc.
- Pop the bottom trim board off from below the meter and measure the conduit as it enters the enclosure. Or just cut the seal (they fall off all the time
) and open the meter side. Now you can see wire size too. The conduit may only be a sleeve to bring the cable out of the ground. - You can set up a Design Review (DR#) to be able to discuss your situation with a planner from the POCO. Once you pick his brain about your situation, cancel the DR# or just let it expire on its own if you won't be doing this work too soon.
Until someone reads the POCO Service Requirements book, this is just shoveling clouds at everyone. Then you go talk to a planner at the POCO telling him, "here's me sitiation, what can we do?"
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Even with a pool, three a/c, a bunch of refrigeration and an electric range, I bet I almost never need more than 100a, if ever.
I don't have all of my electrical on my Emporia vue, but I just scrolled through several days and didn't see over 42a. If I add 30a for the pool heater, I'm still well within
OP
BurtEggley
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2024
- Messages
- 877
I read them last night.
Fully explaining my concerns and reasons would bring on a discussion that would violate forum rules. That said, if the two compressors are going, it is a hot day, the 3-ton AC is going, all the LED lights in the garage are lit up, a couple loads of laundry are being done, the refrige is cooling, and the other half gets out of the shower then flips on the hair dryer ... .
As to load calcs, this is what i had to put together when installing the surge protector. The only difference is that now the AC is 3-ton.
220.12 General Lighting Load
1343 sqft x 3 va per sqft = 4,029 va
220.52(A) Small Appliance Load 1500 va per each 20 amp in kitchen, table area, etc. Specific circuits used already include microwave and refrigerator 2 ea at 1500 va = 3,000 va
220.52(B) Laundry Load 1 x 1500 va = 1,500 va
________
Total General Lighting & Appliance Load = 8,529 va
220.42 Lighting Load Feeder Demand Factor
1st 3000 or less at 100% = 3,000 va
3001 to 120,000 at 35% (5,529 x .35) = 1,935 va
__________
Total Lighting & Small appliance load 4,935 va
220.54 Electric Clothes Dryers
Total 1 (sticker indicates 3,300 va) 5,000 va
220.55 Electric Cooking-Ranges, Stove tops and wall ovens
-0- (house has gas stove, gas water heater and gas furnace)
220.51 Fixed Electric AC (gas heating)
2.5 ton
[15 RLA + (.50 FLA x 125%) =15.625 X 230VAC = 3,593 va
HVAC blower motor 876 va
________
Total HVAC 4,469 va
220.14 Wired Appliance Load
Dishwasher 1,200 va
Range Hood 240 va
Bath room Vent fans 2 ea at 100 va each 200 va
Hanging fan 90 va
Whole House Fan 850 va
__________
Total Wired Appliance Load 2,580 va
220.53 Motor Loads
½ hp Garage door opener 375 va
½ hp Garbage disposal 375 va
2 ea Craftsman air comp. (tag 2ea X 7.5A x 220V) 3,300 va (these are non-continuous and are not often used)
__________
Motor load 4,050 va
Total Whole House Load 21,034 va / 240V = 87.64 amps
GE 125amp panel x 240V = 30,000 va X .80 = 24,000 – 21,034 va load = 2,966 va panel surplus / 240v = 12.36 amp surplus at 80%
Power Company Service has a 13.4% surplus = 3,216 va / 240V = 13.40 amp surplus
Fully explaining my concerns and reasons would bring on a discussion that would violate forum rules. That said, if the two compressors are going, it is a hot day, the 3-ton AC is going, all the LED lights in the garage are lit up, a couple loads of laundry are being done, the refrige is cooling, and the other half gets out of the shower then flips on the hair dryer ... .
As to load calcs, this is what i had to put together when installing the surge protector. The only difference is that now the AC is 3-ton.
220.12 General Lighting Load
1343 sqft x 3 va per sqft = 4,029 va
220.52(A) Small Appliance Load 1500 va per each 20 amp in kitchen, table area, etc. Specific circuits used already include microwave and refrigerator 2 ea at 1500 va = 3,000 va
220.52(B) Laundry Load 1 x 1500 va = 1,500 va
________
Total General Lighting & Appliance Load = 8,529 va
220.42 Lighting Load Feeder Demand Factor
1st 3000 or less at 100% = 3,000 va
3001 to 120,000 at 35% (5,529 x .35) = 1,935 va
__________
Total Lighting & Small appliance load 4,935 va
220.54 Electric Clothes Dryers
Total 1 (sticker indicates 3,300 va) 5,000 va
220.55 Electric Cooking-Ranges, Stove tops and wall ovens
-0- (house has gas stove, gas water heater and gas furnace)
220.51 Fixed Electric AC (gas heating)
2.5 ton
[15 RLA + (.50 FLA x 125%) =15.625 X 230VAC = 3,593 va
HVAC blower motor 876 va
________
Total HVAC 4,469 va
220.14 Wired Appliance Load
Dishwasher 1,200 va
Range Hood 240 va
Bath room Vent fans 2 ea at 100 va each 200 va
Hanging fan 90 va
Whole House Fan 850 va
__________
Total Wired Appliance Load 2,580 va
220.53 Motor Loads
½ hp Garage door opener 375 va
½ hp Garbage disposal 375 va
2 ea Craftsman air comp. (tag 2ea X 7.5A x 220V) 3,300 va (these are non-continuous and are not often used)
__________
Motor load 4,050 va
Total Whole House Load 21,034 va / 240V = 87.64 amps
GE 125amp panel x 240V = 30,000 va X .80 = 24,000 – 21,034 va load = 2,966 va panel surplus / 240v = 12.36 amp surplus at 80%
Power Company Service has a 13.4% surplus = 3,216 va / 240V = 13.40 amp surplus
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Probably not running the pool heater when 3 a/c units running.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
You'd be surprised...we get a lot of shade and we keep the pool warm.
Even so, the pool is 38a (just confirmed) (10 tons) and all three a/c's are about 25a (6.5 tons)
Dagny
Well-known member
Boy.
mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
So if everything is on, you are less than 100a. And everything will never be on.
Whats the need for 200a?
I'll say
75gmck25
Well-known member
Have you talked to your electric company to verify their process for an upgrade and installation of an underground feed?
As part of a permitted addition I agreed that I would switch to an underground feed. And due to the location of the addition, the input to my existing 200 amp panel had to be moved around the corner of the house (2-3 feet?).
I requested an estimate from the power company for the new underground line and they came out for a survey and quoted a price. I agreed to it and they put it on the schedule. They controlled all of the underground work and I just picked up a new meter for them to use. My point - Your utility may also want to control everything run from the pole to the house.
As part of a permitted addition I agreed that I would switch to an underground feed. And due to the location of the addition, the input to my existing 200 amp panel had to be moved around the corner of the house (2-3 feet?).
I requested an estimate from the power company for the new underground line and they came out for a survey and quoted a price. I agreed to it and they put it on the schedule. They controlled all of the underground work and I just picked up a new meter for them to use. My point - Your utility may also want to control everything run from the pole to the house.
You won’t run 2 air compressors at once
How often do you run the whole house fan when the a/c is running?
Do you know for a fact that your ac is drawing 15A?
You need 6 people in this house to run everything.
Unless, of course:
How often do you run the whole house fan when the a/c is running?
Do you know for a fact that your ac is drawing 15A?
You need 6 people in this house to run everything.
Unless, of course:
- Mrs. Burt is in the shower, bathroom fan running, cooktop hood left on, coffee maker brewing, dishwasher washin, washer churning, dryer tumbling, and left the garbage disposal running.
- Meanwhile, you’re in the garage running both air compressors to blow up the rubber ducky, while you’re waiting for them, you’re opening/closing the garage door 25x to check stop positions, you also left the fridge door open, fart fan still running, and you left half of the lights on (including the outside pathway LEDs) and the front door is wide open causing the a/c to run.
Here's another way of looking at it........
How many houses are fed off of one transformer and what size transformer in your neighborhood?
It's very common by me: 4 houses, 25kva xformer = 26a per house on average. (Mostly all ng appliances and heating)
How many houses are fed off of one transformer and what size transformer in your neighborhood?
It's very common by me: 4 houses, 25kva xformer = 26a per house on average. (Mostly all ng appliances and heating)
OP
BurtEggley
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2024
- Messages
- 877
re "Boy"
If anyone thinks that load calculation sheet was voluntary on my part, think again. It is a requirement in many of the cities in Northern California now that it has to be turned in if an electrical permit is needed. Some cities have an app or a spread sheet calculator, but ours does not. And, the city required one to add the surge protector - which really surprised me. What a pain it was doing those calculations. I always get permits, especially electrical when needed, because while I was in the real estate / finance industries, I saw too many times where an appraiser would write something like - "House has a whole house fan, sewer, electrical, and bath upgrades. Subject to proof of final permit." Then the lender underwriter reads that and conditions that the seller/borrower either prove it is permitted and final, or rip it out and restore the area to original. Not going there.
Every communication with the city building department is kept in case they say they don't want a permit and someone down the line thinks a permit should have been obtained. The city has guidelines so when questionable I just contact them. For example, we did some quartz in the bathrooms, and added framing and hand rails in the shower. If a permit had been required to relocate some wiring inside the shower wall, which they waived thank God, the bathroom would have needed additional and significant changes in plumbing and wiring. California State building codes now require aging in place upgrades in bathrooms. That means a seperate dedicated circuit to each bathroom, blocking added for hand rails next to the toilet and all walls in the shower. And the installation of an approved exhaust fan with a built in humidity control. Oh, and also a standard 32"doorway. This house was built in 1979 and has a shared circuit between the two back to back bathrooms, and that goes outside to the back patio because in 1979 it was the only GFCI circuit in the house. Now they are all over the place except the garage ceiling because I am not climbing a ladder to reset one.
If you live in a place that is flexible on these type things then you are very lucky. It didn't used to be this way here. Things change in this day and age. Don't know if anyone saw it in the news, but one city in Canada near Montreal recently passed laws giving trees rights, including the right to life, natural growth, integrity, and regeneration, etc.. Not sure how the trees communicate they have been violated when someone carved "John loves Sally" in the bark, but it is in the law in that city now. They can file a complaint if you harass one. "Oh my, did you see that? The dog he was walking lifted its leg on that tree... ."
Re: both air compressors
I usually use both compressors at the same time when I am glass beading. Something as simple as filling a tire or using an impact gun is now battery powered. So yes, both compressors are usually on at the same time when they are on.
Re: AC amperage
The RLA on the new AC compressor is 15.4, and the LRA 92.0. Max amps on the air handler reads 8.0 amps. I was well aware how that works. I almost took electrical engineering in college because electronics had been one of my areas of study. This thread was to figure out what the odds were that I could put in a 200 amp panel without pulling new wiring, and just limit the main breakers, before I say I want to do that. We already know that the POCO and City staff don't follow their own guidelines all the time.
If anyone thinks that load calculation sheet was voluntary on my part, think again. It is a requirement in many of the cities in Northern California now that it has to be turned in if an electrical permit is needed. Some cities have an app or a spread sheet calculator, but ours does not. And, the city required one to add the surge protector - which really surprised me. What a pain it was doing those calculations. I always get permits, especially electrical when needed, because while I was in the real estate / finance industries, I saw too many times where an appraiser would write something like - "House has a whole house fan, sewer, electrical, and bath upgrades. Subject to proof of final permit." Then the lender underwriter reads that and conditions that the seller/borrower either prove it is permitted and final, or rip it out and restore the area to original. Not going there.
Every communication with the city building department is kept in case they say they don't want a permit and someone down the line thinks a permit should have been obtained. The city has guidelines so when questionable I just contact them. For example, we did some quartz in the bathrooms, and added framing and hand rails in the shower. If a permit had been required to relocate some wiring inside the shower wall, which they waived thank God, the bathroom would have needed additional and significant changes in plumbing and wiring. California State building codes now require aging in place upgrades in bathrooms. That means a seperate dedicated circuit to each bathroom, blocking added for hand rails next to the toilet and all walls in the shower. And the installation of an approved exhaust fan with a built in humidity control. Oh, and also a standard 32"doorway. This house was built in 1979 and has a shared circuit between the two back to back bathrooms, and that goes outside to the back patio because in 1979 it was the only GFCI circuit in the house. Now they are all over the place except the garage ceiling because I am not climbing a ladder to reset one.
If you live in a place that is flexible on these type things then you are very lucky. It didn't used to be this way here. Things change in this day and age. Don't know if anyone saw it in the news, but one city in Canada near Montreal recently passed laws giving trees rights, including the right to life, natural growth, integrity, and regeneration, etc.. Not sure how the trees communicate they have been violated when someone carved "John loves Sally" in the bark, but it is in the law in that city now. They can file a complaint if you harass one.
"Oh my, did you see that? The dog he was walking lifted its leg on that tree... ."Re: both air compressors
I usually use both compressors at the same time when I am glass beading. Something as simple as filling a tire or using an impact gun is now battery powered. So yes, both compressors are usually on at the same time when they are on.
Re: AC amperage
The RLA on the new AC compressor is 15.4, and the LRA 92.0. Max amps on the air handler reads 8.0 amps. I was well aware how that works. I almost took electrical engineering in college because electronics had been one of my areas of study. This thread was to figure out what the odds were that I could put in a 200 amp panel without pulling new wiring, and just limit the main breakers, before I say I want to do that. We already know that the POCO and City staff don't follow their own guidelines all the time.
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mike93lx
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Those would both be very high in my experience. My two 2.5 to a/c's are 7-9a for the condensors and 3a for the air handler. They are pretty new, but don't draw differently than the r22 systems they replaced and I went pretty basic on them.
This is why we are suggesting to get a power monitor. Reading name plates are good for spec'ing circuits but don't tell the real story on draw.
A electric range is another good example. Sure, if you turn everything on, it could be 10kw, but how often would that really happen? I don't think we've ever had the oven all the way on and all the burners on high
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I looked at the online 2022 CEC(Cali not Can) in article 220 only. Not sure what version you may have used, but 220.83A allows for existing services to be determined if the existing service size is adequate: 1st 8kva @ 100%, balance @ 40%. If you include the 2 compressors that technically are considered portable random equipment, using your total of 21kva, ~13.2kva==> 55A.
If you use the MCA of the a/c equipment it already includes 125% of largest FLAs + other loads within it.
Using your #'s: (15 x 230 x 125% + = 4,313va (plus condenser fan va)
Not sure what this is: "[15 RLA + (.50 FLA x 125%) =15.625 X 230VAC = 3,593 va"
Why you are using 125A for a 100A service and then use 0.8 multiplier. All of the respective demand factors used in the sub calculations cover the particulars of each type of load.
Requiring all of this calculation for adding a fixed in place surge protector is, I'll politely state as "asinine ". (Poor you!!) Especially when someone could plug a surge protector into every receptacle to avoid getting a permit. No one would upgrade their service b/c they started out wanting to put in a SPD.
If you use the MCA of the a/c equipment it already includes 125% of largest FLAs + other loads within it.
Using your #'s: (15 x 230 x 125% + = 4,313va (plus condenser fan va)
Not sure what this is: "[15 RLA + (.50 FLA x 125%) =15.625 X 230VAC = 3,593 va"
Why you are using 125A for a 100A service and then use 0.8 multiplier. All of the respective demand factors used in the sub calculations cover the particulars of each type of load.
Requiring all of this calculation for adding a fixed in place surge protector is, I'll politely state as "asinine ". (Poor you!!) Especially when someone could plug a surge protector into every receptacle to avoid getting a permit. No one would upgrade their service b/c they started out wanting to put in a SPD.
On a new house I would definitely be installing the 200A.
On existing, if the existing service is in decent shape, I wouldn't be in a big hurry to replace it.
A few years ago I looked at a panel in a local bar/restaurant. She was tripping the main breaker when they fired up everything in the kitchen. It has a 200A residential main panel.
Another contractor had looked at it and told them they needed 400A. She wanted another opinion, so I came and checked it with an amp meter. I think it maxed out at 230A for a few minutes, then stabilized down around 160A.
In a perfect world 400A would be the answer. But there really wasn't money for that. I told her the breaker should hold that many amps for a while, I could put in a new 200A breaker and it would probably be fine for another 10 years. That's what we did and it's never tripped since.
Point is, in the real world you can run a lot more than the math might indicate.
On existing, if the existing service is in decent shape, I wouldn't be in a big hurry to replace it.
A few years ago I looked at a panel in a local bar/restaurant. She was tripping the main breaker when they fired up everything in the kitchen. It has a 200A residential main panel.
Another contractor had looked at it and told them they needed 400A. She wanted another opinion, so I came and checked it with an amp meter. I think it maxed out at 230A for a few minutes, then stabilized down around 160A.
In a perfect world 400A would be the answer. But there really wasn't money for that. I told her the breaker should hold that many amps for a while, I could put in a new 200A breaker and it would probably be fine for another 10 years. That's what we did and it's never tripped since.
Point is, in the real world you can run a lot more than the math might indicate.
wyliesdiesels
Well-known member
which city in norcal are you in?