200 upgrade.

[sberry]

It's on city water. About 60 ft as the wire flys. 6 is fine to supplimental rods but does the city water call out a number 4 egc.
Last one I bent thru 2 inch lb was copper. I remember doing one about 25 years ago 4/0 alum but I can't remember how difficult a double lb was?

 

[Norcal]

If a metal underground water pipe is present it must be used as a grounding electrode plus the supplemental rods or other......

 

[sberry]

I done a few 100 overhead over relatively recent times, seems most 200 is underground. This is old 60 , it has the space to put 200

 

[HalfTonTom]

Wow, I have no idea what you guys are saying. Is there a book I can use to translate that to English?

 

[sberry]

If a metal underground water pipe is present it must be used as a grounding electrode plus the supplemental rods or other......

Yes, what size wire? I think to water service or underground pipe it's 4? Are uffers now 4 for 200?

 

[sberry]

I was questionin the difficulty of 4/0 thru 2 lbs. I don't need to run the ground thru them but it is 60 ft to city water entrance from the electric service. I believe the water is considered primary in this case and the rods suplemental. Does primary require a 4?

 

[jim111]

Water pipe and ufer both #4 copper, ground rod #6 copper

 

[Bluearmflames]

Go with a mogul LB if you have the space. Much easier due to the increased length. They are speedy but worth it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

You sometimes need an interpreter for sberry!

LB: it's a conduit fitting for 90 degree corners.

supplemental rods: Secondary grounding electrode such as water pipe, pounded rods (where primary is uffer), etc.

6, 4 (wire gauge, copper)
4/0 alum - aluminum 4/0 wire

My interpretation would be:

a 60 amp existing service entrance is being upgraded to a 200 amp service. The existing box has room to be upgraded. The supplemental ground is a city water service. Code says a 6 ga ground wire to the supplemental is adequate, but city wants 4. How hard will it be to route that #4 copper through two 2" diameter LB's?

I might have missed it, it may be 2 questions: Will the city require #4 ground conductor or is the code minimum #6 okay? Can I route a 200 amp service 60 feet underground through 2" conduit with two LB's?

Somewhere in that neighborhood is the tranlation!

NEC does not require a supplemental electrode when a UFER electrode is used.

 

[sberry]

I realize they don't with a new uffer but I think they do with city water.

 

[UglySign]

Wow, I have no idea what you guys are saying. Is there a book I can use to translate that to English?

Lol...one morning while reading half *** wake I mistaken lb
for pound and left the room wondering

 

[sberry]

I never done it but just curious,, it is legal to ground the water with alum wire?

 

[sberry]

Ok, looked till my eyes are blurry. Does the box stores carry alum wire for entrance in to the building? Lots of urd in 4/0 . I forget now what wire for 150 which would be way easier to install.
If I am not mistake they revoke the idea we can use 2/0 cu residential, we need 3/0 correct? Can we still use 4/0 alum?

 

[sberry]

I was just sitting here contemplating a materials list. Last one I did the owner had already bought the wire and had the permit in hand. He had the panel screwed in and braced. It really looked good but wish I would have moved it. Would have saved a difficult fitting. Might have improved the location too. Could have saved a whole lotta wire.

 

[mm08822]

Ok, looked till my eyes are blurry. Does the box stores carry alum wire for entrance in to the building? Lots of urd in 4/0 . I forget now what wire for 150 which would be way easier to install.
If I am not mistake they revoke the idea we can use 2/0 cu residential, we need 3/0 correct? Can we still use 4/0 alum?

These are the min sizes for single family service entrance conductors:
#1 cu 150a
2/0 cu 200a
2/0 al 150a
4/0 al 200a

 

[ssdave]

Obsolete table, replaced in code with provision that service entrance conductors must have ampacity of at least 83% of service rating. Still valid, though, table has same answer as 83% calculation.

 

[ard]

love this thread....

 

[sberry]

I like the chart. As a side note the guy says he has a BIL that works at electric supply. Great,,,, they stock stuff the box store doesn't. Everyone in a big hurry and wants the list on the phone,,, about like greased ****. I couldn't get them to wait the 20 minutes for me to show at the counter so I order up a 150 panel, change ground to 6 and the conductors to 2/0. Guy is a blaze,, great but not sure if he misunderstands or doesn't know any better but gives 4/0 and I don't realize it till later. Nice, needed to do it then,,, what a job.
Question here again as I am really too lazy to figure it out but is 4/0 4/0 2/0 legal in 2 inch plastic or does it violate fill?

 

[mm08822]

you can fit at least 4 4/0's in 2" sch 40 pvc. xhhw


That chart is from earlier code editions. No one took the time to read the titles and permitted conditions of use, so it got reduced to text.

 

[sberry]

Nice copy of the charts. Its all easy enough to read snf csn memorize as little on the highlights. I didn't think about it as we speak a lot about panel to panel but they allow 4cu on service. I will have to remember that. Stock in stores might be 3 more chance and I havnt looked lately. The Menards has a board with the wire on it but HD has the big reels and easy to see whats in stock.
I had designed or redesigned in a hurry about 2/0 and went out of the way a little for the 150 panel that wasn't on the shelf at Menards. I didn't make it to HD to comparison shop, this all got rushed at the last moment.
If I have lead time I have it delivered etc My helper was no poster child of ambition for part of the day but well worth his keep when we had a problem bending the wire thru a couple joints. As I mention earlier its been a couple decades since I did it al. When I did mine I used a trough and had enough drops to do it no cost. I did one customer a while back copper and it was a little work but could be done and he already had the wire.
I had some interest in 150 service where there was some secondary piping from the meter. Some cases its easy to back up to the meter base and feed with a ****** between them, no LB needed. I am going to get a cement holesaw if it works to cut easy hole in block for basement install to eliminate a fitting too. Can come in the upper back of a panel at the right elevation. Being able to put the penetration in the block below sill would save a step.
This house had 60A. It could have worked on 100 as the range was being converted to gas, all the rest gas and I might even have done it but for some panel spaces or added a sub across basement which is a run in itself. 150 would make for a way easier and tailored install than 200 if 2/0 was used. The cost of the panel is rater irrelevant as is aluminum wire. I would have improved the design a bit had the wire been more manageable and allowed another turn.

 

[sberry]

One other question,,, seemed Norcal or Ace mention it around here, did they skip back to 3/0cu for 200 residential in a code change?

 

[sberry]

Without any electric appliances 100x24 space is adequate. 30 will do with some electric. In some places it makes the design so much easier vs spec type wiring as a home run can be way easier that chaining on other circuits.

 

[sberry]

Worth noting on the chart that sets allow for double tap meter base, 3/0 to a 200 panel and another set for other panel. 325A service can get by on 3/0cu,,, got to go 4/0 a less common size to some extent.

 

[sberry]

I am trying to find my code book, is that the same table in it?