200A main question.

[ironman2424]

i just built a 24x32x10 shop and am in the process of wiring it. i am going to run #2 alum URD(in 2" conduit) from my home to the shop. About 88 feet under ground, I bought 125 feet of 3 wire. My question has to do with how to tap into my house main which is a 200A Millbank can. with a 60A going to my home AC. I dont have any more space in that box and really dont want to add another box. i thought about using double lugs(polaris connectors) on the 200A breaker. when i called aroung checking lug prices one of the electrical supply stores said i should just slip the new wires for my shop in with the wires feeding my house( also #2 but copper). He said there should be plenty of room in my main breaker to do this. That supply house sells millbank boxes. He also said not to give my wires a hair cut. Has anyone else done this before or heard of it being done? Is there really enough room to get the wires to fit or should i use double lugs on this? Any help is appreiciated. He did tell me to be sure and take the meter out before i do anything so it can't backfeed and to take the 200A breaker out so i can get to everything easier.

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Sounds like double tapping, which is NOT permitted by the NEC.

Charles

 

[porschedude996TT]

Hair cut? If that entails trimming some of the individual wires from the cable to make them fit in a connection, don't do it!!!

 

[mrb]

are you wanting to do this to the line side of the breaker? dont. Also, wheres your OCP for the #2al? The URD triplex cant enter a building unless it is dual rated with XHHW. (XPLE is not a listed wire type). Last, you most likely need 4 wires.

 

[Aceman]

I just don't get it, people dive headfirst into these projects without asking the right people for help. Only when the advice there receiving from the counterhelp or Home Depot employees starts to sound a little off and they start wondering if it's actually correct.......they post on here.

So just to reiterate what MRB said:

1. No URD in a home, must be marked RHW, RHHW, XHHW. If it's dual marked as USE, USE-2 it's alright. If it's only marked USE, USE-2, it's can't enter the home.

2. You can't double tap a lug. You definitely can't double tap the line side of a main breaker with a wire with less than 200 ampacity.

3. You need 4 wires, not 3.

4. The #2 aluminum needs to land on a properly sized breaker in the panel, how you make that space is up to you.

 

[ironman2424]

it's not for my home. it's for my shop. i wasn't wanting to wire into the line side. my main is outside, not inside so urd can be used. i am asking questions first. haven't ran anything to the shop yet. i have wired the inside of my shop but nothing outside yet. i have talked to the right people (3 electricians) and get 3 deifferent answers. which is why i asked on here. i bought the same wire ENTERGY uses for burial wire. same run around about it just different electricians.

 

[700jfm]

Ironman don't get discouraged, I was giving the wrong info. about a lot of things when doing my electric. if I had started with my questions on here I could of saved a lot of headaches. You may get a little beat up, but you will get the right info. on the how to, and what to.

 

[structures282]

1. No URD in a home, must be marked RHW, RHHW, XHHW. If it's dual marked as USE, USE-2 it's alright. If it's only marked USE, USE-2, it's can't enter the home.

Is RHD a rating? I was doing my weekly hang-out at the local store wiring dept this last weekend and I read on the side of the 500' roll of 2-2-2-4; USE-2 and... I thought RHD... but I can't find anything online that explains RHD, just RHH, RHW. Are my eyes bad?

 

[Aceman]

Is RHD a rating? I was doing my weekly hang-out at the local store wiring dept this last weekend and I read on the side of the 500' roll of 2-2-2-4; USE-2 and... I thought RHD... but I can't find anything online that explains RHD, just RHH, RHW. Are my eyes bad?

Possibly, I've never seen RHD. Here's a letter from Southwire explaining it. I believe the relevant code article is 2008 NEC 338.12(B).

Date: 8/4/08

REF: RHH/RHW/USE Conductors

There is some confusion about what conductors may be used inside buildings. NEC Article 338 states that USE cables shall not be used for interior wiring. This is because the USE aluminum conductors have the 1350 alloy instead of the 8000 series alloy required for use in side buildings. Also, the insulation is not flame retardant.
NEC Article 310.14 Aluminum Conductor Material
“Stranded aluminum conductors 8 awg through 1000 kcmil marked as Type RHH, RHW, XHHW, THW, THHW, THWN, THHN, service-entrance Type SE Style U and SE Style R shall be made of an AA-8000 series electrical grade aluminum alloy conductor material”.
With the triple rated RHH/RHW/USE aluminum conductor, the aluminum is the required 8000 series aluminum and the insulation is flame retardant so, it can be run in buildings.
This product may be used as USE outside the building and as a RHH/RHW conductor inside the building. Of course, when installed in conduit, it can be used outside as a RHW conductor also.
The single rated USE or USE-2 cable can not be used inside buildings.


If you have any questions, please call me.


Best regards,
Paul White
Manager, Electrical Applications
Electrical Division
Southwire Company

 

[kerrville15]

You have one other option that you could look at without having to change out your entire outside panel. Depending on brand, size, etc. of your panel some are made where is can use what they call a tandem breaker, this will give you the ability to hook up 2 curcuits while only taking up the space of one breaker. You could put a couple of your low load 110V circuits on these, and then it would free up enough space in the panel to put in the new breaker for your sub-panel. I don't really like doing this, but when people are trying to not put up a whole new panel, then this could be an option. Just make sure you're not going to overload you panel. You can use an amprobe clamp on meter to see what kind of amperage you're drawing to give you an idea.

 

[ironman2424]

kerryville when you say tandem breaker are you talking about a double pole?
what i have outside is a 200amp service breaker with a 60amp beside that. the 200amp goes from outside to inside to another 200amp and the rest of my circuits run off the panel inside my house. the 60amp breaker outside feeds a 5ton ac unit thats about 4ft away. all im trying to do is get juice to my shop via #2alu ran in plastic pipe to a 100amp panel in my shop. theres gotta be a right way to do this without replacing the entire meter loop assembly and costing an arm and a leg and causing anymore hair loss, i aint got much hair left or money lol. oh one more thing: the wire from the 200amp main to the 60amp slot is 6awg copper so i know a can't just drop in a 100amp breaker and hook my shop to that and put the 60amp in its own box. 6awg is going from that 60amp breaker to my air unit to. if i can't get some good advice soon im prolly gonna take a sledge hammer to it and live in the dark for awile. i done got frustrated with it but dont have enough monet to hire it out. spent all i could afford building my shop and never thought getting juice to it was gonna be as big a issue as it has.

 

[kerrville15]

No a tandem breaker is not the same as a double pole breaker. It look like one except that it is the size of a single pole breaker, but each breaker turns off separately. They make quads for double pole breakers that do the same thing, but I won't get into that & confuse you more.

I didn't realize you had the 200 amp main only that was feeding an indoor panel, I though you had something like a 42 circuit panel with the main in it, or something similiar on the outside.

If accessible, then come from the inside panel and set a junction box or LB on the outside wall and run your wire to your shop from there. Like I said if there is no room in the indoor panel, then look at the tandem breaker option to free up space. I know this doesn't sound very clear, so if you have any other questions just let me know.

 

[ironman2424]

yeah its double protected. 200a main breaker with the 60amp kicker and then on the inside theres another 200amp regular double pole breaker and a bunch of circuits in that same panel. i went ahead and bit the bullet today and got a 12 slot subpanel for outside. i came up with the 2" pipe and teed off of that to both panels with LB T or whatever its called. im gonna take the 60amp out and put a 100 amp in its place, excite the sub box from that 100amp breaker then have another 100amp breaker for the shop wires and aM gonna move my AC breaker and wires over to the sub box as well. the shop has a 100amp breaker on that panel as well. i oughta be covered considering all the 100amp breakers on both ends of everything lol. im a 100amped out with all this lol. it wasn't as hard to build my shop myself as its been trying to figure out an easy way to get juice to it. there aint no easy way. this last part of its been a pain in the neck. THANKS FOR EVERYONES HELP ON THIS AND ACEMAN HAVE SOME MERCY ON THE DO IT YOURSELFERS ON HERE CAUSE WE ALL CAN'T GET A JOURNEYMANS LICENSE. I TRIED TO GET INTO OUR LOCAL APPRENTICE SCHOOL WHEN I WAS YOUNGER. I COULDNT WAIT FOREVER. i worked as a elec. helper for over 5 years and kept getting passed up because of everyone elses brothers and cousins and so forth--neputism in south arkansas!

 

[ironman2424]

KERRYVILLE THANKS A BUNCH MAN AND 700jfm SAME TO YOU TO.