2017 NEC residential changes

[reader2580]

2017 NEC will now require AFCI on all 15/20 amp breakers in a house. It also requires GFI protection for 15/20 amp 250 volt circuits. (Not real common.)

The materials for the load center are going to cost as much/more than the materials for the rest of the house at this rate! A double pole 15 or 20 amp GFI breaker is $80.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Interesting, though most circuits a home builder would put in is going to be 30A or higher for things like their air conditioner, stove, dryer, etc...

I put in my own 20A 240V circuit in the garage for my little 1.5HP air compressor instead of running it on 110V.

 

[Bert_]

I'm of the thought that this is a manufacturer created problem just so they can sell a more expensive product. I don't believe they offer the level of safety they claim.

What AFCI are known for doing is causing all sorts of nuisance issues.

I've been guilty of breaking the rule, omitting AFCI/GFCI and installing single receptacles for certain loads, refrigerator, freezer, sump pump. Like you used to be able to do several code cycles ago.

 

[EOC_Jason]

A lot of jurisdictions already required AFCI around the house and of course GFCI in the damp areas / outside... But yeah I don't really want to be replacing AFCI breakers as they are not cheap (compared to your regular ones).

 

[Daedalus]

What a shocker.

Though AFCI has already been required on most 120v circuit locations. I had an electrician tell me that there's an incestuous relationship between the manufacturers of electrical components and the NEC. AFCI is more about selling $45 breakers than it is about necessary safety measures.

EDIT: Bert beat me to it.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I dont have a problem with GFCIs on 120v circuits but on a 240v circuit other than a hot tub it doesnt make much sense at all so that I am opposed to.

Watch. 2020 Nec will require GFCI protection on all 240v circuits.

Yes that will add up quick and make the GFCI breaker manufacturers tons of money.

This does present an issue for those wishing to add a 15a or 20a 240v circuit to an old outdated panel that breakers are no longer made for.

AFCIs are a different story.

Dont even get me started on those snake oil devices.

 

[ww_big_al]

What a shocker.

Though AFCI has already been required on most 120v circuit locations. I had an electrician tell me that there's an incestuous relationship between the manufacturers of electrical components and the NEC. AFCI is more about selling $45 breakers than it is about necessary safety measures.

EDIT: Bert beat me to it.

I heard that Michigan removed the requirement for the afci ****.

As for manufacturers in bed with NEC it's happening with all code setting organizations. These organizations make money from membership due and participation. I was on a natural gas one and users (mostly utilities and contractors) don't want to spend the money to have someone sit on the code making panel and fight for there interests. It use to be pride and bragging rights for these users to have the industry experts on staff. Not any more. By users I mean contractors, installers, inspectors, and end users representatives. Manufacturers are more than willing to spend the money to send representatives. If they can get a Benicia into code that is money in the back.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Maybe they will make a GFCI 240V / 20A receptacle like they do for 110v...

 

[cybrdyke]

The NEC is developed by the NFPA, the fire prevention association. They have hundreds of committees. Yes, there are manufacturers on those committees. There are also users, installers, labor reps, 3rd party labs, insurance companies, and consumers.
CD

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Maybe they will make a GFCI 240V / 20A receptacle like they do for 110v...

I bet that will cost some change.

 

[Cmreschke]

It would require a neutral to trip. No?

 

[Jess]

I have been looking at AFCI breakers and the cost comparisons between manufacturers. In Canada, a Siemens AFCI 15 amp breaker runs around $85. Similar in the US is about $43. Other brands vary, but if you are doing any work, the upgrading costs will add up rather quickly. While I understand the concept of the AFCI, I still don't see the need to extend the rules to virtually every circuit in a house. I'd never want them in my shop as I run a lot of older equipment and they would likely cause a false trip. Somebody will make a killing renting out breakers to pass inspection, to be replaced after all work is complete. GFCI I support, having run into some serious issues that could have smoked somebody. We have all seen some scary stuff left behind by 'handy' homeowners and in my case rental tenants. Very year, there is another 'improvement' to codes that eventually make it impossible for the average competent person to complete their own permitted work. It creeps in a bit at a time...

 

[doorfx]

I just built my Canadian garage this year. I had to replace all my 15/20 amp breakers with AFCI breakers TO PASS INSPECTION. Yes they were $85 a piece compared to $15 for regular breakers. I questioned why they had to be in a garage and the inspector said because it was being fed by the house panel. Any branch circuit with an outlet on it had to have an AFCI. Funny I have no AFCI breakers in my house panel lol

 

[alfredeneuman]

It would require a neutral to trip. No?

Not necessarily

It would measure the 2 legs of the circuit and compare them to each other, and if there is a difference in the measurements, the breaker would trip.

 

[Richard Cranium]

another big brother improvement, that will cost the customer hundreds of extra dollars.

 

[n20junkie]

Just like the racing "safety" committees and organizations which are compromised almost completely by safety equipment manufacturers. Every year we get new, more expensive rules just like the government raises taxes.

Its getting really old.

 

[prostreetamx]

When I was wiring tract homes this AF code was just starting. We used to run 12/3 home runs to several areas and then split the circuit to feed another room at the first box. When I heard about this new code I called our shop to see if these new breakers were available in double pole versions. They were not so every home run that fed a bedroom had to be changed to 12/2 so each circuit had a separate neutral. None of the other supervisors caught this issue before they finished wiring lots of houses. The first batches of these Siemens AFCI breakers ended up being recalled and we had to swap them out in dozens of houses. At that time it applied only to bedrooms but nuisance trips were normal. I have heard that they now make them in 2 pole versions but haven't seen a device version like a GFCI yet. I heard there might never be one since they would only protect the circuit after that device. Personally I think they are device looking for a reason to exist. We are the only country I know of using this extra level of protection. Except Canada EH?

 

[House]

There are AFCI devices that could be installed right beside the panel and then the circuit would continue from there. But in reality by the time you purchase that,a normal breaker, a device box and the extra screwing around your pretty much back up to the full price of the AFCI breaker anyways. Plus this all takes up much more room at the panel location . The Full AFCI requirement is coming to Canada also this year or next, right now we need to have them in all bedrooms of dwelling units .

 

[bczygan]

Luckily, we don't pull no stinkin' permits here in Detroit, so we can choose the code we wish to follow...or not!

Bill

 

[theoldwizard1]

AFCIs are a different story.

Why do you say that ?

I just looks like another case where the supplier have figured out a way to make more money, like tamper resistant.

I have never heard of a residence that burned because of an arc on a 120V receptacle ! Millions of children have been raised in houses without tamoer resistant receptacles, how many have died ? At least there is some reasonable logic for GFCIs in wet areas and on concrete.


Way more people die from alcohol and smoking than do from sticking something that does not belong in a receptacle or getting burned from a 120V arc.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

It would require a neutral to trip. No?

Not necessarily

It would measure the 2 legs of the circuit and compare them to each other, and if there is a difference in the measurements, the breaker would trip.

Just like the racing "safety" committees and organizations which are comprised almost completely by safety equipment manufacturers. Every year we get new, more expensive rules just like the government raises taxes.

Its getting really old.

Fixed it for you.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Luckily, we don't pull no stinkin' permits here in Detroit, so we can choose the code we wish to follow...or not!

Bill

My nephew had to pull a permit and have an inspection before DTE would install the meter. Oh yeah, half of Detroit has illegal power hook ups !!

 

[tfi racing]

There are AFCI devices that could be installed right beside the panel and then the circuit would continue from there. But in reality by the time you purchase that,a normal breaker, a device box and the extra screwing around your pretty much back up to the full price of the AFCI breaker anyways. Plus this all takes up much more room at the panel location . The Full AFCI requirement is coming to Canada also this year or next, right now we need to have them in all bedrooms of dwelling units .

The full AFCI rule is already in effect in Canada,maybe Saskatchewan is slow in adopting the 2016 CEC.

I just built my Canadian garage this year. I had to replace all my 15/20 amp breakers with AFCI breakers TO PASS INSPECTION. Yes they were $85 a piece compared to $15 for regular breakers. I questioned why they had to be in a garage and the inspector said because it was being fed by the house panel. Any branch circuit with an outlet on it had to have an AFCI. Funny I have no AFCI breakers in my house panel lol

Interesting interpretation,maybe that's an Ontario amendment for AFCI's in garages?

Luckily, we don't pull no stinkin' permits here in Detroit, so we can choose the code we wish to follow...or not!

Bill

That's exactly what is going to happen.More and more people will avoid pulling permits to avoid paying for AFCI's and in some cases new panels,
resulting in even more potentially dangerous hazards being covered up that will likely cause more harm than the stupid AFCI's would ever prevent.And before some of you pious holier than thou electricians spout off about the sanctity and honour of your hallowed trade,save it.You know very well that this will be the result of implementing rules with little perceived benefit that very few are in favour of,you may run by the book but you know that thousands of cheats and homeowners won't.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Why do you say that ?

I just looks like another case where the supplier have figured out a way to make more money, like tamper resistant.

I have never heard of a residence that burned because of an arc on a 120V receptacle ! Millions of children have been raised in houses without tamper resistant receptacles, how many have died ? At least there is some reasonable logic for GFCIs in wet areas and on concrete.


Way more people die from alcohol and smoking than do from sticking something that does not belong in a receptacle or getting burned from a 120V arc.

U took a snipet of what i said and misunderstood me. Notice how in the beginning of my comment i was saying how i agree with and see the need for GFCIs?

Then i said AFCIs are a different story meaning i dont agree with them. And "dont even get me started on those snake oil devices "

Im not for AFCIs and dont agree with them. There has never been a proven case where a house fire wouldve been prevented by the use of AFCIs. yes i agree with u on the TR outlets also.

Perhaps i wasnt clear.

 

[doorfx]

@TFIracing
No I am in Calgary Alberta

 

[MushCreek]

They tried to make me go all-AFCI when I had my final inspection in October 2015, and I'm in SC. Luckily, I pulled my permit prior to the rule change, so I was grandfathered in. I think I have 4 AFCI breakers, instead of 25. They didn't require them in the shop; just GFI.

 

[Mustang51js]

Hopefully most places wont adopt the changes. Afci are the biggest scam they have going. I watched a video a fellow electrician made with sq d qo arc fault, took 2 outlets hooked up to a arc fault sp15, had a shop vac plugged in one and a electric heater plugged in the other. He was drawing over 15 amps and left the hot loose on the one outlet,he would move the wire so it would arc and shut the heater on and off. And guess what,the so called best arc fault breaker didnt do anything

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Hopefully most places wont adopt the changes. Afci are the biggest scam they have going. I watched a video a fellow electrician made with sq d qo arc fault, took 2 outlets hooked up to a arc fault sp15, had a shop vac plugged in one and a electric heater plugged in the other. He was drawing over 15 amps and left the hot loose on the one outlet,he would move the wire so it would arc and shut the heater on and off. And guess what,the so called best arc fault breaker didnt do anything

Have a link?

Thats a keeper!

 

[checkthisout]

I found this during a remodel at an in-laws house. The wall cavity that it was in was filled up about 6" over the wire with dried seeds and mouse poo.

Circuit worked fine but had "issues" in the past.

View media item 50119
Not the wall cavity that it came from, but this was a different one in the same house.

View media item 50124

When we re-did my Grandma's house we found similar issues. Rodents had gotten in and chewed wires. In one wall cavity the pass-through hole was charred and the stud was blackened almost to the top plate. No idea how that didn't burn the place down. No pics of that one though.

For this reason I am for AFCI's. They are the final "layer" of protection that a circuit needs.

1) Normal breakers protect the circuit from over-current. This protects the circuit from being overloaded and damaged and possibly causing a fire.

2) GFCI protects the end user from shock at current levels below that which would trip a normal breaker.

3) AFCI's protect property from fire due to wiring damage at current levels below that which would trip a breaker.

 

[justsam]

Hopefully most places wont adopt the changes. Afci are the biggest scam they have going. I watched a video a fellow electrician made with sq d qo arc fault, took 2 outlets hooked up to a arc fault sp15, had a shop vac plugged in one and a electric heater plugged in the other. He was drawing over 15 amps and left the hot loose on the one outlet,he would move the wire so it would arc and shut the heater on and off. And guess what,the so called best arc fault breaker didnt do anything

Was this a "Combination", series/parallel, type AFCI?

Sounds to me like this "Electrician" may have created a test for a series type fault to see if a parallel only AFCI would detect it. Do you know the full description of the QO breaker?

http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/product-range-presentation/7224-square-d%E2%84%A2-qo%E2%84%A2-and-homeline%E2%84%A2-arc-fault-circuit-interrupters-%28afci%29

 

[Norcal]

There is no way anyone can prove that AFCI's can or have protected anything, in earlier generation AFCI's the GFCI function is what reacted to faults. GFCI's have proved themselves as reliable, economical, protection.

The idea is good, just needs to be proven prior to requiring it, as it is, just snake oil.

 

[checkthisout]

Was this a "Combination", series/parallel, type AFCI?

Sounds to me like this "Electrician" may have created a test for a series type fault to see if a parallel only AFCI would detect it. Do you know the full description of the QO breaker?

http://www.schneider-electric.us/en/product-range-presentation/7224-square-d%E2%84%A2-qo%E2%84%A2-and-homeline%E2%84%A2-arc-fault-circuit-interrupters-%28afci%29

Yeah. That would be no different than plugging/unplugging the heater or vacuum with it turned on. You would get a series arc and not one in parallel which is would be the type of failure on in-wall wiring that I have seen.

It's either arcing to ground or neutral.

 

[prostreetamx]

Another issue I can see with AFCI breakers is as far as I have seen, they are only available in full size. I have wired many houses over the years with 20/40 or 30/40 panels where you only get the full 40 spaces if you use all skinny or twin breakers. We had to use skinny or quad breakers even for bigger 240v loads just to have enough space for all the new separate circuit requirements now out there and the code requiring you leave 2 full size breaker spaces for future. That code kills 4 skinny spaces out of your 40 possible. I used a 20/30 150a sub in my new garage fed by 100a just so I could separate more circuits.

 

[Jess]

I don't have any direct experience with AFCIs yet, but with codes being updated will likely get to know a lot about them soon. My understanding was that the implementation of AFCIs for bedroom circuits was to add protection beyond the outlet for faulty extensions, Chinese lamps and anything else you could think of plugging in. I once owned a condo that had a zip cord extension plugged in and run almost 20ft under the carpet to appear under a side table next to the chesterfield. This was an open plan from 1980 and there were no provisions for power in the middle of the space. I had a few issues with the lamp, and eventually we decided to cut off and pull out the extension. It was all dried up, cracked and showing bare wires form where walking on the cord had damaged it. The carpet was new when we bought the place but I don't know if the cord had a previous life. Its my example of what I think AFCIs are intended to deal with. I can't see that every circuit in a home that isn't already GFCI protected will need AFCIs but that is the way it is here already.