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2020 NEC changes

checkthisout

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I really like the outdoor disconnect. Makes it easy to kill all power within the breaker panels without having to pull the meter.

Put some locks on these disconnects, lest the bored neighborhood hoodlums kill your power while snuggling up to the lady on a Friday night.

We think alike.

I don't like that requirement at all. I have a mobile without an outside disconnect and vandals /thieves can kill all the security and alarm equipment in short order.

I have a mobile but I have a lock on the outside disconnect for just that reason.
 
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CJ7VFR

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..I wonder why the change on surge protection

Id really like to know if theres incidents that precipitated these changes.

Could it have anything to do with people wanting/installing solar panels on homes every where these days?

Kind of like the code where you have to have a neutral wire in every switch box location because someday, maybe, someone might possibly replace a regular toggle switch with a "smart" switch, or other type of switch device that requires a neutral?

Maybe future proofing or something like that.

Jim
 

sberry

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First, most residential neighborhoods limit your power to less than 400A (320A?).


That is CRAZY :wtf: :eek: :shocking: !! So you could run maybe 50+' of unprotected (no fuse/breaker) 200A wire !! Imagine if a worker hit that with a back hoe. I would stay HOT until the wire melted !!

NOT ON MY PROPERTY !
You are special? These do have a fuse ahead of them but are buried by the millions,, if there was a problem they would have come up with something by now.
 

BigGarage

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Another one I forgot, whole house surge protection for all new services and service upgrades.

When I had my electric panel replaced last July I spent an extra 300-350$ for the whole-house surge protector. I lost a computer once due to a surge before I had installed a surge-protected outlet. My fault entirely but now I shouldn't have to worry about it.

When the inspector saw that I had opted for it he told me that in his opinion they would soon be required for all new installs. I guess he was right.

Dennis
 

sberry

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Computers used to be hooked the phone thru the intra modem. The "surge" came thru the phone line that likely wasn't grounded properly or had surge on it, computer hooked to grounded electric and,, pow. I used to have a problem, had a box of blown up protectors till I got on a code forum and figured out the phoco didn't complete the install correctly. Had 1 hit since and it took out their protection like it should.
Power side equipment wouldn't have helped as the strike was coming down a different line. I quizzed one of the installers,,, well,,, I just don't understand,,,, So instead of following instructions he disregards it.
 

slow

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Are outside disconnects not common? Every house I have seen here in FL has one, never had an issue with "random" people turning them off. Even the commercial strip malls I used to work at had rows of disconnects in the back (I will admit, as a teenager I did think of turning them all off, but never did, this was mid 90's so cameras were not as good or common as they are today)
 

engineer2

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Imagine if a worker hit that with a backhoe.
All our neighborhood power lines are buried and that happens every few years, usually by fence installers (the markings are off a little bit, or the installers push their luck). It just lets out a big ZOT and trips the breaker at the local transformer. One block will typically go out. POCO gets called and workers got some 'splainin to do.
 

Norcal

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All our neighborhood power lines are buried and that happens every few years, usually by fence installers (the markings are off a little bit, or the installers push their luck). It just lets out a big ZOT and trips the breaker at the local transformer. One block will typically go out. POCO gets called and workers got some 'splainin to do.

There is no overcurrent protection on the transformer secondaries at all, there are cutouts on the X-former primary.


If someone excavates without having underground utilities marked they get to pay for the damage they did.
 

wyliesdiesels

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We think alike.

I don't like that requirement at all. I have a mobile without an outside disconnect and vandals /thieves can kill all the security and alarm equipment in short order.

I have a mobile but I have a lock on the outside disconnect for just that reason.

All security and alarm equipment should have decent battery backup supply. Also, should have monitoring for utility power loss.
 

dscheidt

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We'll really have to adjust our standard response that has to be given out on just about a daily basis around here. This is the strangest one, since it seems to be a softening of the requirements. I don't see the logic of this change.

First, most residential neighborhoods limit your power to less than 400A (320A?).


That is CRAZY :wtf: :eek: :shocking: !! So you could run maybe 50+' of unprotected (no fuse/breaker) 200A wire !! Imagine if a worker hit that with a back hoe. I would stay HOT until the wire melted !!

NOT ON MY PROPERTY !

400A service is usually a 320A meter feeding a pair of 200A panels, each with its own (unfused) feeder from the meter to the panel. Load is limited to 320A, but it can exceed that for quite some time (as a practical matter, it doesn't often do that.).

There are an increasing number of power companies that won't provide a service that extends much past the property line. You set a meter there, and then feed the house, usually underground. As for the feeders, depending on where you are and the property, you can have several hundred feet of unfused wires feeding the house from the meter (which is not much different than having the meter at the house, and the poco wires being unfused.). This change to the NEC permits that wire to be fused, which is safer for everyone.
 

ant.foste

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Here in California it is pretty common to have discos outside, it is not a problem.

Same with both of my houses in AZ. Actually, the entire main panel is outside.

Putting a lock on the disconnect kinda defeats the purpose of the Fire Department being able to open them in case of a fire, doesn't it?

FD is quick with the bolt cutters. It's like they train for it or something. I've had the experience to watch them a few times now. I think there was a designated "locksmith" on these crews. Luckily never for my own property.
 

Higgins

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As for locking exterior electrical boxes. Talk to your local FD and ask them what common keys they use. Then just purchase the same lock. Some local FD even sell the locks. Then you don't have to worry about them having to cut the lock off!
 

75gmck25

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When I had a house built in 1996 in San Antonio they installed an external disconnect for the feed to the main panel and also in a separate feed to a 240 volt panel that powered the A/C units and electric ovens. I was told then that the fire department needed to be able to shut off all power without entering the house.

However, now that I understand the code a little better, I realize the disconnect might have been required because power entered at one end of the house and then connected with SER cable to the panel in the garage at the other end of the house (50 feet?). Most places want no more than about 5 feet of unprotected SER between the meter and the main panel, and mine are spaced much more than that.

Bruce
 
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Terry D

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When I had a house built in 1996 in San Antonio they installed an external disconnect for the feed to the main panel and also in a separate feed to a 240 volt panel that powered the A/C units and electric ovens. I was told then that the fire department needed to be able to shut off all power without entering the house.

However, now that I understand the code a little better, I realize the disconnect might have been required because power entered at one end of the house and then connected with SER cable to the panel in the garage at the other end of the house (50 feet?). Most places want no more than about 5 feet of unprotected SER between the meter and the main panel, and mine are spaced much more than that.

Bruce
That is how it is here, we are allowed 6 ft after it enters the house to get it in the main breaker, if not, then the main breaker has to be outside or right where the SEU comes in the building. It can run as long as you want on the outside. The panel in the basement or where ever it is would become a sub panel and must be feed with SER. The new code requires a emergency disconnect, which i dont think it needs over current protection. St louis City actually allows nothing, if you cant put the main panel right where the SEU comes in the building, the you have to put a disconnect with over current protection outside.

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dutchgray

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Might be time to do breakers like we do in the UK, feed a bank of standard breakers from an RCD (GFCI)
You usually have 2 in a panel so you don't lose everything when it trips.
Its really hard to not notice a trip when half the circuits in your house go dead.
 

AntonLargiader

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Might be time to do breakers like we do in the UK, feed a bank of standard breakers from an RCD (GFCI)
You usually have 2 in a panel so you don't lose everything when it trips.
Its really hard to not notice a trip when half the circuits in your house go dead.

I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that's an improvement. People seem to love diversity and isolation in their circuits. How does the cost compare to individual breakers (if you have them) and how many breakers go on one RCD?

Here, Homeline breakers are about $5 each, 1-pole *FCI breakers are about $40 each and 2-pole *FCI are $85.

Is arc fault a thing over there, and does the RCD provide that?
 

dscheidt

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Might be time to do breakers like we do in the UK, feed a bank of standard breakers from an RCD (GFCI)
You usually have 2 in a panel so you don't lose everything when it trips.
Its really hard to not notice a trip when half the circuits in your house go dead.

Nothing about UK wiring is worth emulating. Ring circuits are a bad design, and should have been abandoned decades ago.
 

AntonLargiader

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Nothing about UK wiring is worth emulating. Ring circuits are a bad design, and should have been abandoned decades ago.

I knew it as plumbing (from my English mom) rather than wiring. She was amazed when she came to the US and found that plumbing was run INSIDE houses rather than on the outside. Much harder to repair the freeze-breaks our way...
 

Norcal

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I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that's an improvement. People seem to love diversity and isolation in their circuits. How does the cost compare to individual breakers (if you have them) and how many breakers go on one RCD?

Here, Homeline breakers are about $5 each, 1-pole *FCI breakers are about $40 each and 2-pole *FCI are $85.

Is arc fault a thing over there, and does the RCD provide that?

There was a discussion here about AFDD's (we know them as AFCI's) coming to the UK.


https://www.electrical-contractor.n...219922/afdds-coming-to-the-uk.html#Post219922

Have not really heard much more though.
 
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dutchgray

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Nothing about UK wiring is worth emulating. Ring circuits are a bad design, and should have been abandoned decades ago.

You might change your tune if everything is 240 like here, our wiring as a whole is very safe, radial circuits are becoming more common, but rings are fine.
 

dutchgray

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I think you'll have a hard time convincing anyone that's an improvement. People seem to love diversity and isolation in their circuits. How does the cost compare to individual breakers (if you have them) and how many breakers go on one RCD?

Here, Homeline breakers are about $5 each, 1-pole *FCI breakers are about $40 each and 2-pole *FCI are $85.

Is arc fault a thing over there, and does the RCD provide that?

The point I was trying to make is if you tie 5 circuits to one RCD, if it trips you know, you don't get the spoiled freezer problem because you didn't notice. You reset and if it goes again turn that bank of breakers off, reset again and individually turn on breakers until you find the faulty circuit.
You would get 5 or 6 breakers per RCD in an average consumer unit, you would only have 2 RCD's in there.

Decent makes, not the cheapest rubbish,
A breaker is about £4
An double pole RCD (to feed breakers) is about £40
An individual RCD breaker (RCBO) is about £40
An arc fault, RCD breaker (RCBO + AFDD) is about £200 you don't see them very often, they also take up 2 modules in the unit, a big unit here is 18 or 21 modules.

But it has to be said the way we actually do our wiring, we don't tend to have many arc issues, outlets, switches connections are screwed, no wire nuts, no routine pigtails in boxes, no aluminium wire was used consumer side of the meter.
Domestic electrical fires that aren't caused by appliances are quite rare.

Electricians also have to test the operation of the RCD's, and various other things with the very expensive test boxes they have to make sure everything is correctly wired and working properly. You are also not allowed to do electrical work as a homeowner beyond some very basic things anymore, so almost all work "should" be done (and then tested and certificated) by a qualified person.
 
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Terry D

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Another change to add. They have brought back the table for sizing conductors for single phase dwelling services and feeders. It is now Table 310.12
 

dutchgray

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What are radial and ring circuits

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A ring is where you go out the breaker with two wires that forms a complete loop, with several outlets connected to it along the way, ours have 32A breakers and the wire is 2.5mm sq, the outlets are 13A rated and the plugs have fuses fitted from 1A to 13A in 1A intervals to cover any appliance.

A Radial is a single wire out the breaker, ours would be 20A on the 2.5mm sq or 32A on 4mm sq wire feeding a chain the same 13A outlets, much like in the USA. Of course we only have 240V, not the centre tapped ~ 240/ 120 system.

Rings are the most common but you do see more radials now, rings do have their own issues but paired with our outlets and fused plugs are fine. We only have one type of domestic outlet, anything that needs more than 13A at 240V in the home is hardwired.
Industrially there is a standard range of plugs and outlets you can get in single or 3 phase in 16A, 32A, 63A, 125A
Lighting is completely separate and a radial system.
 
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Terry D

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A ring is where you go out the breaker with two wires that forms a complete loop, with several outlets connected to it along the way, ours have 32A breakers and the wire is 2.5mm sq, the outlets are 13A rated and the plugs have fuses fitted from 1A to 13A in 1A intervals to cover any appliance.

A Radial is a single wire out the breaker, ours would be 20A on the 2.5mm sq or 32A on 4mm sq wire feeding a chain the same 13A outlets, much like in the USA. Of course we only have 240V, not the centre tapped ~ 240/ 120 system.

Rings are the most common but you do see more radials now, rings do have their own issues but paired with our outlets and fused plugs are fine. We only have one type of domestic outlet, anything that needs more than 13A at 240V in the home is hardwired.
Industrially there is a standard range of plugs and outlets you can get in single or 3 phase in 16A, 32A, 63A, 125A
Lighting is completely separate and a radial system.

Interesting. I guess I'm confusing it with series and parallel. Only time I have ever wired anything in a loop was low voltage landscape lighting to prevent voltage drop. Thank you for the explanation.
 

dutchgray

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The EU harmonized voltages, some countries were 380Y/220V, others were 415Y/240V, so they harmonized it as 400Y/230V, nothing changed other then what it was called.

Yeah good old EU, the new standard has loose enough tolerances that nothing had to change, except all the paperwork. Got to find something for all those bureaucrats to do all day.
They harmonized the wire colours as well, we used to be red, blue, yellow for the lives and black for neutral, now we are brown, black and grey for lives and blue for neutral.
 

alfredeneuman

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Terry>>>
Do you follow the St. Louis County amendments to the International Building (Electrical) Code or the NEC?
It seems that you do some things differently (ie:"That's just how it's done here") than some of us.
 
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