2022 Garage Sale Thread
- Thread starter Old Radar
- Start date
- Status
This weeks pickups: box of wrenches, can of sealed Sears camp fuel, Dunlap 5244 vise, no name jewelers vise, Wright 1/4" V-770 Frankenstein ratchet, 72 inch blade? Chapman Knives and Saws St. Louis. And a C Clamp with no marks other than patent dates of 1899 and 1904. Has a ~3/4" hole in the ball end
Spent $9
www.garagejournal.com
www.garagejournal.com
www.garagejournal.com
www.garagejournal.com
Spent $9
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www.garagejournal.com
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www.garagejournal.com
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www.garagejournal.com
Outlawmws
Well-known member
JB I'm pretty sure your "no name" vise is a Stanley or earlier version of it. 7XX (not the 700 however)
Clean off he top of the slide and look for stampings.
Clean off he top of the slide and look for stampings.
An estate sale Friday produced these three items for $5:
Diamalloy SN56 Needle nose
P&C 1257 Cutters
Lectrolite No. 218 Slip Joint Pliers
Left behind due to outrageous pricing was a dense assortment of 1/2" S-K sockets and drive tools--all individually priced--and a nice S-K hip roof tool box below the table for $48. There was also a 3/8" S-K set that was so small I had mistaken it for a 1/4" set. No amount of cajolery would budge the ES owner off the posted prices. I knew I was looking at a complete (or almost complete) set, but wouldn't meet the asking price.
The following morning was a different story.
Third on the entry list, I grabbed the S-K box and started filling it with the set tools, noting that the correct number of sockets plus a few non-brand sockets were in the bag also. The $60 Lectrolite 1714 Combo roll had sold the day before. Since it was the last day of the two-day sale, things were 50% off and deals were being made. I noted to the tool guy that even at 1/2 off, the price was steep. He said he understood, but said let's just count things up. After some mental gymnastics, he said "How about $40?" Since that was $10 below my planned starting position, I calmly thought about it for a moment and agreed. (The individually priced items, including the 3/8 set amounted to $194)
Looking around for anything I might have overlooked, I came across an interesting brass hose nozzle and in true monkey-see-monkey-do fashion, (Damn you guys!) I had to have it. $1.
After cleanup, #1502 Heavy Duty Tool Box 19x7x8-3/4. No way am I messing with this paint job!
Extra sockets: Williams, 2x CM, Blackhawk and S-K.
3/8" Set #4511 complete including Tommy Bar! The 1/2" set has one, too!
So I initially thought I had found a set # 4502. This was because I was excited about the 1/2" set and hadn't really looked closely at the small set. I made the bad assumption after I left the sale the first day that it was a 1/4" set, not a 3/8". The #4502 set included a 1/4" set so I thought that's what it was. I quickly realized my error and found I might have a #4123 set because it came with a universal. Only issue was I was missing the largest socket--a 1-1/4". Dating the set took a little time looking at the catalogs available on archive.org. The 1956 cat does not offer 6pt sockets in 1/2" drive. The 1958 cat changed the smallest three 1/2 drive sockets to 6pt, which mine has. That put the NET date to 1957. The 1961 cat dropped the 25/32" socket from the set so that puts the NLT date to 1960.
As for the nozzle, it's not ready for prime time. The shut-off washer at the ****-end of the threads, seems to work fine. However, what appear to be two crush washers that sit under the knurled cap don't hold pressure and allow an unacceptable amount of water to gush through the top of the cap and all over the user. How to replace them is a mystery since the winged flange of the nozzle appears to be brazed on. Any of you &#@!* nozzle aficionados out there have any suggestions beyond making it a display item? Absolutely no marks of any kind to ID the maker.
Diamalloy SN56 Needle nose
P&C 1257 Cutters
Lectrolite No. 218 Slip Joint Pliers
Left behind due to outrageous pricing was a dense assortment of 1/2" S-K sockets and drive tools--all individually priced--and a nice S-K hip roof tool box below the table for $48. There was also a 3/8" S-K set that was so small I had mistaken it for a 1/4" set. No amount of cajolery would budge the ES owner off the posted prices. I knew I was looking at a complete (or almost complete) set, but wouldn't meet the asking price.
The following morning was a different story.
Third on the entry list, I grabbed the S-K box and started filling it with the set tools, noting that the correct number of sockets plus a few non-brand sockets were in the bag also. The $60 Lectrolite 1714 Combo roll had sold the day before. Since it was the last day of the two-day sale, things were 50% off and deals were being made. I noted to the tool guy that even at 1/2 off, the price was steep. He said he understood, but said let's just count things up. After some mental gymnastics, he said "How about $40?" Since that was $10 below my planned starting position, I calmly thought about it for a moment and agreed. (The individually priced items, including the 3/8 set amounted to $194)
Looking around for anything I might have overlooked, I came across an interesting brass hose nozzle and in true monkey-see-monkey-do fashion, (Damn you guys!) I had to have it. $1.
After cleanup, #1502 Heavy Duty Tool Box 19x7x8-3/4. No way am I messing with this paint job!
Extra sockets: Williams, 2x CM, Blackhawk and S-K.
3/8" Set #4511 complete including Tommy Bar! The 1/2" set has one, too!
So I initially thought I had found a set # 4502. This was because I was excited about the 1/2" set and hadn't really looked closely at the small set. I made the bad assumption after I left the sale the first day that it was a 1/4" set, not a 3/8". The #4502 set included a 1/4" set so I thought that's what it was. I quickly realized my error and found I might have a #4123 set because it came with a universal. Only issue was I was missing the largest socket--a 1-1/4". Dating the set took a little time looking at the catalogs available on archive.org. The 1956 cat does not offer 6pt sockets in 1/2" drive. The 1958 cat changed the smallest three 1/2 drive sockets to 6pt, which mine has. That put the NET date to 1957. The 1961 cat dropped the 25/32" socket from the set so that puts the NLT date to 1960.
As for the nozzle, it's not ready for prime time. The shut-off washer at the ****-end of the threads, seems to work fine. However, what appear to be two crush washers that sit under the knurled cap don't hold pressure and allow an unacceptable amount of water to gush through the top of the cap and all over the user. How to replace them is a mystery since the winged flange of the nozzle appears to be brazed on. Any of you &#@!* nozzle aficionados out there have any suggestions beyond making it a display item? Absolutely no marks of any kind to ID the maker.
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Provincial
Well-known member
I am no nozzle expert, but I would first try putting an O-ring between the two "crush" washers. That would make the O-ring be the seal and the washers would be back-up rings. Look and see if the inside of the nut has a smooth surface for the O-ring to bear against. I'll bet that what is missing is a rope packing that was compressed by the two washers.
Outlawmws
Well-known member
Nozzle: OR, I'd find a suitable O-Ring and fugetabout the crush washers (I can't see how they would seal regardless...)
That's a cool one! I've not seen one with brass wings.
Good strategy on the tools, and nice score!
That's a cool one! I've not seen one with brass wings.
Good strategy on the tools, and nice score!
Outlawmws
Well-known member
Prov may be on to something - graphite string may have been the packing. but I'm still thinking O-Ring is easiest.
You **** on that haul!! I see some minty SK and getting all that on half price day makes it pretty sweet.An estate sale Friday produced these three items for $5:
Diamalloy SN56 Needle nose
P&C 1257 Cutters
Lectrolite No. 218 Slip Joint Pliers
Left behind due to outrageous pricing was a dense assortment of 1/2" S-K sockets and drive tools--all individually priced--and a nice S-K hip roof tool box below the table for $48. There was also a 3/8" S-K set that was so small I had mistaken it for a 1/4" set. No amount of cajolery would budge the ES owner off the posted prices. I knew I was looking at a complete (or almost complete) set, but wouldn't meet the asking price.
The following morning was a different story.
Third on the entry list, I grabbed the S-K box and started filling it with the set tools, noting that the correct number of sockets plus a few non-brand sockets were in the bag also. The $60 Lectrolite 1714 Combo roll had sold the day before. Since it was the last day of the two-day sale, things were 50% off and deals were being made. I noted to the tool guy that even at 1/2 off, the price was steep. He said he understood, but said let's just count things up. After some mental gymnastics, he said "How about $40?" Since that was $10 below my planned starting position, I calmly thought about it for a moment and agreed. (The individually priced items, including the 3/8 set amounted to $194)
Looking around for anything I might have overlooked, I came across an interesting brass hose nozzle and in true monkey-see-monkey-do fashion, (Damn you guys!) I had to have it. $1.
After cleanup, #1502 Heavy Duty Tool Box 19x7x8-3/4. No way am I messing with this paint job!
Extra sockets: Williams, 2x CM, Blackhawk and S-K.
3/8" Set #4511 complete including Tommy Bar! The 1/2" set has one, too!
So I initially thought I had found a set # 4502. This was because I was excited about the 1/2" set and hadn't really looked closely at the small set. I made the bad assumption after I left the sale the first day that it was a 1/4" set, not a 3/8". The #4502 set included a 1/4" set so I thought that's what it was. I quickly realized my error and found I might have a #4123 set because it came with a universal. Only issue was I was missing the largest socket--a 1-1/4". Dating the set took a little time looking at the catalogs available on archive.org. The 1956 cat does not offer 6pt sockets in 1/2" drive. The 1959 cat changed the smallest three 1/2 drive sockets to 6pt, which mine has. That put the NET date to 1957. The 1961 cat dropped the 25/32" socket from the set so that puts the NLT date to 1960.
As for the nozzle, it's not ready for prime time. The shut-off washer at the ****-end of the threads, seems to work fine. However, what appear to be two crush washers that sit under the knurled cap don't hold pressure and allow an unacceptable amount of water to gush through the top of the cap and all over the user. How to replace them is a mystery since the winged flange of the nozzle appears to be brazed on. Any of you &#@!* nozzle aficionados out there have any suggestions beyond making it a display item? Absolutely no marks of any kind to ID the maker.
$28 at Jake’s Flea today. 
Crowntop C’man electric tool box, KeenKutter keyhole saw, Stanley straight peen, Bonney ball peen, Bonney large rusty screwdriver, XceLite screwdriver, P2 & P1 Par-X screwdrivers, Stanley P2 screwdriver, Crescebt / Bell System B sidecutting slipjoints, frozen Herbrand Triangle 1/4dr rat, 2 8pt SK 1/2dr sockets, Utica 90-6 adj, bore brush, Bonney tappet wrench, and a bunch of punches, chisels including a Bonney and a Snap-on, CV DOE, BHM Pyramid wrench, Crown kit wrench.
Have not yet ID-ed what goes in the box, maybe a drill.
Dayton chisel set.
These punches aren’t branded. Just the unusual “Use [rather than wear] safety goggles” warning.
And MrsLS bought me this mug.
Crowntop C’man electric tool box, KeenKutter keyhole saw, Stanley straight peen, Bonney ball peen, Bonney large rusty screwdriver, XceLite screwdriver, P2 & P1 Par-X screwdrivers, Stanley P2 screwdriver, Crescebt / Bell System B sidecutting slipjoints, frozen Herbrand Triangle 1/4dr rat, 2 8pt SK 1/2dr sockets, Utica 90-6 adj, bore brush, Bonney tappet wrench, and a bunch of punches, chisels including a Bonney and a Snap-on, CV DOE, BHM Pyramid wrench, Crown kit wrench.
Have not yet ID-ed what goes in the box, maybe a drill.
Dayton chisel set.
These punches aren’t branded. Just the unusual “Use [rather than wear] safety goggles” warning.
And MrsLS bought me this mug.bmwrd0
Well-known member
LS, do you collect Par-X?
Also, really diggin' the straight peen.
Also, really diggin' the straight peen.
I don’t go out of my way for Par-X, but when the seller has them in a mixed USA bin at a low price, I pick them up. I had my eye on a Par-X drawer box a few months ago, but someone else bought it.
Yes, I like the Stanley straight peen. I’ll be re-hafting it, since it was shoved upside/down onto the existing handle with no wedges, and the handle was cracked straight across the grain at the neck.
Yes, I like the Stanley straight peen. I’ll be re-hafting it, since it was shoved upside/down onto the existing handle with no wedges, and the handle was cracked straight across the grain at the neck.
It's definitely factory painted.on suckage for Nobaobyman. - I like the beehive mini driver - I sort of collect those - Never seen one painted, so I'm thinking owner painted.
Not too bad a day I went to an annual sale I always seem to do well at and it was no exception today. (oldest daughter came with this time adn also did well) Most everything came from there... Not picture (cause I got lazy) a California flag in nice shape. - $5
I had to convince the main guy to let me cherry pick two wrenches from a couple of boxes marked "$*** all" He hemmed adn hawed but finally relented. no steal but $10 got both wrenches (Plvmb DBE and an unmarked pipe wrench) and an old tire repair kit, (still with stuff inside, I have not inventoried)
The $1 Table was good: (Again, $10 for all so a little discount)
Craftsman Keyhole saw and SBE, Wizard Combo Spare tile lock with keys, and a keychain with mini electricians pliers...
A small Creel, old Oil bottle top, 3 old early sockets, most of an old jewelers saw, Stanley No. 18 Bevel square, Worth Perfect Handle driver
$3 for this finger jointed redwood box - planning this to become a camping utensil box.
At a different sale, some Xmas ornaments for a buck:
From another, for Free, a small Prop tank, and I think its full:
Then after I got home, I went back out to the place from last night and got the two glass oil bottles ($5 both) I had passed on since no tops - so one will have a top, (see above) and I'll need to see if I can find another top next weekend at the big "Town wide" antique sale. (this is typically my big event for the year)
Soaking the crud:
The Cman Heritage box had drill bits in it but I emptied it out. I will use it for ratchet extensions.
WNYflyer
Well-known member
Old Radar,
Great score on the S-K stuff, especially the 1/2" drive socket set in the hip roofed box.........very nice
Great score on the S-K stuff, especially the 1/2" drive socket set in the hip roofed box.........very nice
3baygarage
Well-known member
I strained my back after the third time moving a Craftsman that size around. I recommend to separate as well.
3baygarage
Well-known member
WNYFlyer- you sent some of that good Williams vibe down here with your post. I found a lil 3/8 treasure today!
d42jeep
Well-known member
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alinc100
Well-known member
From the 1960 Power Tool Catalog :$28 at Jake’s Flea today.
Crowntop C’man electric tool box, KeenKutter keyhole saw, Stanley straight peen, Bonney ball peen, Bonney large rusty screwdriver, XceLite screwdriver, P2 & P1 Par-X screwdrivers, Stanley P2 screwdriver, Crescebt / Bell System B sidecutting slipjoints, frozen Herbrand Triangle 1/4dr rat, 2 8pt SK 1/2dr sockets, Utica 90-6 adj, bore brush, Bonney tappet wrench, and a bunch of punches, chisels including a Bonney and a Snap-on, CV DOE, BHM Pyramid wrench, Crown kit wrench.
Have not yet ID-ed what goes in the box, maybe a drill.
Attachments
3baygarage
Well-known member
Some really nice finds there gentlemen.
Don- I like those Ford script cans. That one sure is purdy.
My little Williams treasure, a B-52W.
It was at the bottom of a tray of doe‘s and dbe’s. I about passed it over thinking “just another pin spanner”, then I paused like ...”No way!”.
I may have heard the Snap! song playing in my head at that moment
Don- I like those Ford script cans. That one sure is purdy.
My little Williams treasure, a B-52W.
It was at the bottom of a tray of doe‘s and dbe’s. I about passed it over thinking “just another pin spanner”, then I paused like ...”No way!”.
I may have heard the Snap! song playing in my head at that moment
gpw_42
Well-known member
Another **** for OR’s S-K booty.
Don, that Buck 110 is fairly old - 70s (?) - with only 3 pins in the bolsters. Nice score!
Don, that Buck 110 is fairly old - 70s (?) - with only 3 pins in the bolsters. Nice score!
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Thanks, alinc100! I have a half dozen B&D 1/4” drills from about then to the 90’s. I don’t think I have a C’man from until the ‘80s (when they had the mid-mounted handle that rubs the skin off my thumb knuckle).
I really picked it for the powerbronze-era 2-tone Crowntop logo, but it’s not broken or rusty, so maybe it will stay intact.
I really picked it for the powerbronze-era 2-tone Crowntop logo, but it’s not broken or rusty, so maybe it will stay intact.
Is that prismatic jaw aluminum or steel? I think I’ve seen an aluminum one like that, but on a clamp rather than vise? Maybe a plastic vise with metal wear parts? Vague memory.A jaw?
But there something looking a bit like it in the 1966 Craftsman power tool catalog - pg19 item4 supplimentary jaws. I was looking for something else and it caught my eye.
Outlawmws
Well-known member
Don and GPW - Buck had date codes - if not for every year, for small ranges.: https://www.buckknives.com/about-knives/how-old/
LS the Jaw is steel, and while the pic does not show it well, has 2 counter bored holes
LS the Jaw is steel, and while the pic does not show it well, has 2 counter bored holes
3baygarage
Well-known member
Here’s what came home from the flea today, in no particular order.
Small table mount vise is a Lakeside. Kind of neat, I like the spring loaded locking knob. Seems it could be the same as a Stanley Handyman and others. Anyone know the actual mfr.?
Ratchets- 1/2” Walden (unmarked) and Napa, 3/8 Walden breaker bar. Bonney 1/4 extension, Craftsman marked cross bar. Old Snap-On 3/4 drive handle.
Sockets- 4 “Long” (Japan) to compliment my Long 1/4” tools, Bahco, Billings, S-K including a Not Guaranteed connecting rod socket, Armstrong “Wright” (Aircraft), Truth, Duro, New Britain flex. Odd tubular British Standard socket.
Wrenches- Of course the Williams spanner for 3/8 ratchets. Williams 6” adjustable, Ford, Truecraft 6”, Craftsman ratchet dbe, Mac doe, Billings raised letter ingnition wrench, Indestro 1/4 combo and ign., Craftsman raised letter open end.
Pliers- lot of old pliers out there today. Barcalo, Red Devil, Lakeside (to go with vise), Channellock, Bernard. Odd pair marked Buffalo, I will have research this one a bit.
Misc. -broken Shrade knife, Edelman rivet set, small Leatherman, Proto razor knife, Walsco retractable key chain, screw starter, unknown knurled handle.
It was a good day, except for being soaked and trying not to drip all over everyone’s wares in that heat.
Small table mount vise is a Lakeside. Kind of neat, I like the spring loaded locking knob. Seems it could be the same as a Stanley Handyman and others. Anyone know the actual mfr.?
Ratchets- 1/2” Walden (unmarked) and Napa, 3/8 Walden breaker bar. Bonney 1/4 extension, Craftsman marked cross bar. Old Snap-On 3/4 drive handle.
Sockets- 4 “Long” (Japan) to compliment my Long 1/4” tools, Bahco, Billings, S-K including a Not Guaranteed connecting rod socket, Armstrong “Wright” (Aircraft), Truth, Duro, New Britain flex. Odd tubular British Standard socket.
Wrenches- Of course the Williams spanner for 3/8 ratchets. Williams 6” adjustable, Ford, Truecraft 6”, Craftsman ratchet dbe, Mac doe, Billings raised letter ingnition wrench, Indestro 1/4 combo and ign., Craftsman raised letter open end.
Pliers- lot of old pliers out there today. Barcalo, Red Devil, Lakeside (to go with vise), Channellock, Bernard. Odd pair marked Buffalo, I will have research this one a bit.
Misc. -broken Shrade knife, Edelman rivet set, small Leatherman, Proto razor knife, Walsco retractable key chain, screw starter, unknown knurled handle.
It was a good day, except for being soaked and trying not to drip all over everyone’s wares in that heat.
Outlawmws
Well-known member
3bay, that Lakeside is very similar to the MF I picked up last week - Mice is on a big pin adn has a setscrew type lock for rotation adn keeping it from easily coming off the big pin.
3baygarage
Well-known member
I see yours Outlaw, via the vise thread. Yep, looks like the same type vise, but yet another lock mech..
You look like the perfect buyer to ask.. I’ve asked before and no one answered seriously. I understand the joy of buying quality USA made tools.
However; what happens with all this stuff after you buy it? Are you making “sets” of “everything “? Selling “everything” on eBay? How do you recover your investment?
Thanks
James
Old Man Roger
Well-known member
Forgive my ignorance, but what’s special about it?
Cruzan80
Well-known member
It is used for opening up/unscrewing the JH Williams B-52 series ratchets. Not a lotbof them out there, not sure if they were ever sold to the public.
Old Man Roger
Well-known member
AAAAAH! Thank you.
I have a couple of adjustable and non-adjustable Williams pin spanners, thought maybe I had something special lol I guess not.
Cruzan80
Well-known member
If it has two pins like an angle grinder spanner, maybe!
Old Man Roger
Well-known member
They are pin spinners, so they have 2 pins.
3baygarage
Well-known member
I’m happy to answer that, speaking for me personally.
Yes, I enjoy buying and using quality US made tools. I suppose a big part of it is ”the thrill of the hunt” though, as I’ve heard others describe it.
I definitely don’t make sets of sockets and wrenches from loose finds, but sometimes did back in my early days of tool buying and flea market flipping to support my hobby. Many do make sets, but that isn’t my thing. I don’t feel a need to complete anything as some might.
Mainly I just buy at random whatever tickles my fancy, and if you follow along you’ll see it’s often the same type of things. Ratchets, socketry, some wrenches, truck brand stuff in general that might have resale value, the occasional oddball tool.
Ebay used to be fun, and a great way to turn a profit on desirable items, but I’ve barely been selling anything for years now. I just sold three items, only two of them tool related. That’s about the only sales for these past several months of this summer, so as you can see I don’t sell much these days. Definitely need to sell more. Not so much to recover investments, because usually I buy cheap, but more so to lessen the amount of things I have and don’t want, and eliminate the clutter.
Basically I’ve become a hoarder. I’m not afraid to say it. People in my life witnessed it. Hoarder of tools, I don’t go out looking to buy much else.
Off topic but I had a family friend ask me once years ago how much I had invested in tools. Her being a very money minded person, was asking because she had spent a small fortune on her son’s Snap-On tools. I know she wanted to brag a bit and compare and see if I was anywhere near that level of tool spending with what I had. I couldn‘t answer then and still don’t know what I’ve spent over the last 20 years, but even if it‘s far beyond what they spent on a big beautiful new SO set, it’s apples to oranges. I still wouldn’t trade the fun and experiences I had going to estate sales and flea markets and doing all those things I enjoyed.
bbbarracuda
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2008
- Messages
- 709
I personally have no hope or intention of ever recovering my investments in buying tools.
I buy them for my own use and enjoyment. Mostly for fun. I really don't use them for work. Just hobby stuff at home.
Collecting anything for me is not about the money, "its all about the hunt"
My kids are convinced that i buy tools just so they will have to deal with them after I die.
They may be right.
RTM
Well-known member
Investment? It’s my entertainment fund. I spend less on tools most weekends than some people’s beer or wine fund. I may sell a few, but rarely at enough of a profit to cover much more than packaging. I often pass on tools to my buddies at cost.
PacificaVette
Well-known member
I had a good weekend at garage sales and an estate sale. The town I live in has a yearly "city-wide" garage sale, with more than 30 sales going on. As usual, most have things of little interest, but there are some gems out there.
I found a lead melting ladle with the old Craftsman Crown Head label still on it (barely). Only $2.
The next sale netted a 1/2" drive Craftsman RHFT ratchet with the thumbwheel for $5, a "Two-Axe Brand" 4 lb hammer for $2 and a small metal box with probably about 100 taps, a nice tap wrench, and some other odds and ends for $5.
On Sunday, my wife and I went to an estate sale that advertised 50% off original pricing. I found a Craftsman saw blade clock for $5, a Craftsman Handi-cut, S-K 3/8" breaker bar and Alltrade magnetic pickup, all for $4, and a barely used Black & Decker RP200 plunge router for $10. I've never done any woodworking, but this tool might get me started on another new hobby.
I found a lead melting ladle with the old Craftsman Crown Head label still on it (barely). Only $2.
The next sale netted a 1/2" drive Craftsman RHFT ratchet with the thumbwheel for $5, a "Two-Axe Brand" 4 lb hammer for $2 and a small metal box with probably about 100 taps, a nice tap wrench, and some other odds and ends for $5.
On Sunday, my wife and I went to an estate sale that advertised 50% off original pricing. I found a Craftsman saw blade clock for $5, a Craftsman Handi-cut, S-K 3/8" breaker bar and Alltrade magnetic pickup, all for $4, and a barely used Black & Decker RP200 plunge router for $10. I've never done any woodworking, but this tool might get me started on another new hobby.
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RTM
Well-known member
Did you pick that up on Hiawatha? IF so, we were walking in as you were walking down the hill. See my post uphill
Mr. Wonderful
Well-known member
After several disappointing sales this weekend I picked up this Cabelas spotting scope. It wasn't a screaming deal but I didn't have one and it was much cheaper than new. It looks pretty much unused.
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