20a Circuits Everywhere?

[bczygan]

So I'm looking at a 1940's home.

60A fused main panel.

Non-grounded outlets everywhere. And minimal outlets and circuits. 8 fuses total.

Of course this needs upgrading, especially for modern electrical usage levels.

So new 200A service and breaker panel.

All new grounded wiring.

Now here's the question.

Why not make ALL the power circuits in the house 20A?

A for instance is the usage in the master bedroom. It has the following:
TV
Blu-Ray
Stereo
Powered sub
7 table lamps
Plug ins for computer and 2 cell phones and tablet and electronics battery
Portable A/C (Summer)
Portable electric heater (Winter)
Mini apartment fridge.
2 window or portable fans
2 clock radios
Weather radio

Now, obviously the typical wiring from the 40's won't handle all this. There are 4 outlets, all on one circuit.

And I don't want to give dedicated circuits to things like the A/C, heater and fridge.

So I'm thinking that multiple 20A circuits are the best solution.

In fact, with today's plethora of electrical items, shouldn't I run 20A circuits EVERYWHERE? And also break them up so critical things have less chance of all being off at once?

Bill

 

[Beemer533]

I tend to wire outlets with 20A circuits, but it is probably a waste other than in locations like the garage or kitchen counter outlets. Actually I think it is code for kitchen outlets.

Also 14awg is easier to work with and stuff into boxes..

I would definitely put things like AC, fridge and heater on dedicated outlets.. But that is me..

Even with today's proliferation of electrical gadgets, most (TV, chargers, media streamers, etc) do not individually consume much power.

 

[woodzy]

No reason to use 20 amp circuits except for kitchens, bathroom, Laundry, or other rooms that will use some type of heating device. Most today electronics use a lot less power.

15amp is plenty for most stuff and that wire 14 gauge is like stuffing butter in a box and 12 gauge is like pushing coat hangers in there. I just built a house and I probably have more electrical than most and most of it is 15 amp unless deemed necessary by code or use.

 

[DonPowers]

Bill

I put a 200 amp panel in the garage and running 12-2 for all the 120V circuits with 20 amp breakers. My second floor rooms each have 3 circuits, two for outlets and one for lighting. I'm using LED lighting and could have easily put all the lights on one circuit but have a total of five circuits for lighting, some will not see 100 watts.

So far, 15 circuits are dedicated for upstairs, which includes two spares. The remaining 25 circuits are for downstairs and will include five 240 volt circuits.

Call me nuts, I don't care, this arrangement works for me.

 

[Beemer533]

I like breaking things up as well... I prefer each room has its own circuits for lighting and outlets.. probably comes from growing up in a house that was wired with 6 breakers...

Take wire and hit as many devices as possible before running out... Living room outlets, dining room lights, hallway lights and upstairs bathroom all on one breaker.. What a pain.

 

[teamextreme]

No reason to use 20 amp circuits except for kitchens, bathroom, Laundry, or other rooms that will use some type of heating device. Most today electronics use a lot less power.

15amp is plenty for most stuff and that wire 14 gauge is like stuffing butter in a box and 12 gauge is like pushing coat hangers in there. I just built a house and I probably have more electrical than most and most of it is 15 amp unless deemed necessary by code or use.

+1
Woodsy pretty much sums it up. You'll have a ton of folks from the overkill crowd that seems to be very vocal on GJ, who will all recommend going with 20 amp for everything, but it's just that, way overkill with no real benefit. In a house wired to modern standards using 15 amp circuits and 20 amp circuits where appropriate and required, you won't have any issues with overloaded circuits. I can't recall ever tripping a breaker in normal operation in any house I've been in.

 

[DonPowers]

I like breaking things up as well... I prefer each room has its own circuits for lighting and outlets.. probably comes from growing up in a house that was wired with 6 breakers...

Take wire and hit as many devices as possible before running out... What a pain.

My house was built in the 40s and a previous owner upgraded the panel to a 100 amp with 16 circuits. Lots of the old wire was cloth wrapped, which I removed and replaced with 12-2. There was no rhyme or reason to the circuit layout, so I basically rewired the whole house. With minis, there are 19 circuits, which is not enough for a house, especially since four circuits are 240 volt. One of these days I'll upgrade the panel.

 

[Dick in Wisconsin]

And I don't want to give dedicated circuits to things like the A/C, heater and fridge.

Why don't you want to give dedicated circuits to the A/C, heater, fridge?

I would recommend 20amp circuits in the kitchen (two, three, or even four), laundry, bathrooms (hair dryers, curling irons, etc.), where the TV/stereo/media would be installed, and of course multiple 20 amp circuits in the garage.

That said, I rarely trip a breaker in the house (built early 1990s). Both our bathrooms and the garage are on the same 15amp circuit (GFCI protected) ... so everytime I had the compressor in the garage running and my wife tried to use the hair dryer or curling iron the breaker tripped. If you put in enough circuits (15 or 20 amp) its unlikely you'll trip a breaker.

I would put the refrigerator, garbage disposal, and microwave on separate 20amp circuits. Overkill yes, but very adequate.

Rather than tripping breakers, my problem is NOT enough outlets. I don't like using power strips and don't like installing those things that allow you to plug six things into an outlet. If I was building a house today, you'd see lots of receptacles either side of every bed. In addition to receptacles near the floor, I might put a receptable in at nightstand height. In addition to 120 volt outlets, I would also make sure I had powered USB outlets either side of the bed, in the kitchen, near any desk, and probably within reach of the toilet.

Another place for multiple receptacles is where you plug the TV, stereo, cable box, Blu-Ray player, Sub-woofer, etc. etc. etc. into.

There is nothing more embarrassing than remodeling a kitchen, having a finish party, and then having the kitchen breaker(s) trip as the coffee makers, crockpots, roasters, etc. are all lined up on the kitchen counter and island and plugged in! It didn't happen to me, but I've been to a few parties like that!

 

[bczygan]

I don't want to give dedicated circuits for heater, AC or fridge because these are portable things that may move from room to room or eventually be eliminated all together.

To my way of thinking, you need enough duplex receptacles for convenience, but you need enough circuits for the power you may use and separating uses so that if a circuit trips, everything doesn't go out.

Taken to an extreme you could run a circuit for every item. But a happy medium needs to be considered.

The house I am talking about is wired to save wire. When the Master Bedroom goes out, every outlet and every light goes out. And the adjacent bedroom, which is being used as an office, also goes out.

In the example above, There are too many watts for the single circuit and not enough convenience outlets for all the devices.

I'm thinking one circuit that could be used for either AC or heater, depending on the season, One circuit that could serve a combination of fans, lamps and misc. and another one for the fridge and the small remaining misc. All 20A. And then the general illumination (Ceiling fixture) on a lighting circuit for all the upstairs ceiling and general illumination lights.

Bill

 

[Hivolts]

20 amp breakers are the way to go. But remember match the breaker to wire size.

14 = 15 amp max
12 = 20 amp max

I normally put no more than 10 outlets on a 20 amp.

Kitchen needs 2 dedicated appliance circuits..

I run a home run of 20 amp for dishwasher, fridge, and microwave.

 

[Stuart in MN]

There's additional cost for a 20 amp circuit - the larger wire, and more labor to install it - but otherwise if you can afford it there's no reason not to use all 20 amp circuits.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I run 12 gauge wire everywhere and use 20A breakers on new circuits. Mainly so I didn't have to mess with having multiple smaller rolls of wire and I bought boxes of breakers.
Cost difference wasn't much and the labor isn't much more work. (I'm sure both would add up for a contractor).
I do put the large loads on dedicated circuits. How many places could you move an A/C, Fridge, microwave or heater in an average house?

 

[woodzy]

OK- if you want to use 20 amp circuits go for it. You can't convince me that 20 amp circuits are better everywhere. I understand that maybe sometime in your life you want to move a refrigerator, microwave, and portable AC unit into your bedroom and if you have a 20 amp circuit there it would help. If you plan ahead, you should know what type of circuit you really need.

If you look at the schedule below, you can base your usage based on the type of room and do a pretty good job that you won't be blowing breakers. If you are using a 15 amp circuit, that works out to 1500 VA and if 20 amp that would be 2000 VA on the schedule below.





Again, I'm just making the point - I have wired many things in this new house. Garage alone has 22 duplex outlets so I know the importance of wiring to what you will need, and if you use 14 gauge wire, it is 5 times easier to push this stuff back into the box without any issues. I used he deepest box you could buy and it went very smooth.

 

[Fallon]

I'd put the fridge on the same circuit as some lights if possible. That way you would notice quickly if your fridge lost power before things went bad. We've had some issues with the freezer in the garage doing that. Breaker got turned off because we couldn't figure out what it was for. Freezer was starting to defrost when we figured it out.

The 2 "kids bedrooms" (my & my wife's offices now... no kids). are on the same breaker. She's female, so permanently cold. Space heater + several computers = popping breaker. She has an extension cord permanently going down to an outlet on a different circuit in the hallway now I keep tripping over. Really need to run a new circuit or 2 to one or both of the offices to get rid of that extension cord one of these days.

I'd either do 20@ circuits, or just lots of different circuits in your shoes to avoid situations like mine. If it were me I'd probably do both. Wire is cheap compared to having to open up the walls again or try to add additional circuits after the fact.

 

[bczygan]

I'd put the fridge on the same circuit as some lights if possible. That way you would notice quickly if your fridge lost power before things went bad. We've had some issues with the freezer in the garage doing that. Breaker got turned off because we couldn't figure out what it was for. Freezer was starting to defrost when we figured it out.

The 2 "kids bedrooms" (my & my wife's offices now... no kids). are on the same breaker. She's female, so permanently cold. Space heater + several computers = popping breaker. She has an extension cord permanently going down to an outlet on a different circuit in the hallway now I keep tripping over. Really need to run a new circuit or 2 to one or both of the offices to get rid of that extension cord one of these days.

I'd either do 20@ circuits, or just lots of different circuits in your shoes to avoid situations like mine. If it were me I'd probably do both. Wire is cheap compared to having to open up the walls again or try to add additional circuits after the fact.

This is my situation too.

And I suspect it is for a lot of other people.

Repurposed rooms with a lot more equipment than originally intended.

My wife's dressing room is also a jewelry making room and has a stereo, TV and powered subwoofer. Was originally a bedroom.

And the office that was a bedroom? It has the obligatory TV, electric pencil sharpener, lamps, computers and monitors, Shortwave transceiver, battery chargers etc. Plus it has a keyboard and amp. When I play, that room and the master bedroom go dark and unpowered.

Even if everything was grounded, we just have too few circuits. To do one thing, everything else has to be turned off.

So even if I just add to what's here, I really need more capacity in the way of circuits, and thus a panel.

And I'll bet there are others in the same boat, who need to sit down and figure out their needs in each room, and what added circuits they need. And we need to base it on how we will actually use the power. My wife sometimes runs the heater AND a fan at the same time because she's cold AND has hot flashes both together.

Bill

 

[sberry]

I wire everything with a general and a recept 20 and lights, furnace and ceiling fans 15.

 

[JRC3]

Doesn't it take like +1/3 to trip a breaker? So that's like 27 amps.

 

[checkthisout]

#14 is a lot easier to work with than #12.

If you need 2400 watts per circuit, then why not just run 15amp MWBC's and lessen the amount of home runs you need?

 

[ozyborn]

Since, at an auction years ago, I picked up over 75 of the 250' rolls of 12 gauge wire. I run 20 amp to every circuit on home and garage. Unless I need more than that

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

So I'm looking at a 1940's home.

60A fused main panel.

Non-grounded outlets everywhere. And minimal outlets and circuits. 8 fuses total.

Of course this needs upgrading, especially for modern electrical usage levels.

So new 200A service and breaker panel.

All new grounded wiring.

Now here's the question.

Why not make ALL the power circuits in the house 20A?

A for instance is the usage in the master bedroom. It has the following:
TV
Blu-Ray
Stereo
Powered sub
7 table lamps
Plug ins for computer and 2 cell phones and tablet and electronics battery
Portable A/C (Summer)
Portable electric heater (Winter)
Mini apartment fridge.
2 window or portable fans
2 clock radios
Weather radio

Now, obviously the typical wiring from the 40's won't handle all this. There are 4 outlets, all on one circuit.

And I don't want to give dedicated circuits to things like the A/C, heater and fridge.

So I'm thinking that multiple 20A circuits are the best solution.

In fact, with today's plethora of electrical items, shouldn't I run 20A circuits EVERYWHERE? And also break them up so critical things have less chance of all being off at once?

Bill

Sounds to me like you need about 3 seperate circuits for that bedroom!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Since, at an auction years ago, I picked up over 75 of the 250' rolls of 12 gauge wire. I run 20 amp to every circuit on home and garage. Unless I need more than that

Id trade half of them off for 14/2.

 

[bczygan]

Sounds to me like you need about 3 seperate circuits for that bedroom!

I TOTALLY agree!

And there's nothing wrong with that, it is what it is!

And likewise for other spaces and uses.

Bill

 

[petee_c]

I have two 20 amp 110v circuits in my wood shop, also had them put in the kitchen during a recent remodel.

Before I insulate and drywall my attached garage, I'm thinking about upgrading the wiring in there to 2 X 20amp circuits as well as a 220v for future heater /welder.

My compressor is 110v in the garage, and when it's cold, the oil gets thick and it blows the current 15amp fuse when it tries to cycle from 90psi with a cold pump.

For the normal rooms in the rest of the house. Stick with 15amp especially given the price of wire.

 

[sberry]

I have an old house where I ran separate circuits to bedrooms and another outlet on another to the master for use with electric heaters but,,,, This is like needing 2 parts washers and other over the top deals you really have no use for. Believe it or not with minor exceptions the code legal wiring is adequate.
This is about like the 2 circuits in every 4x4 in the garage every 4 ft, while we like to think we are the baddest and going to need gobs of power about 3 general circuits would supply all the basic power in my shop.
A guy will come to one morning and realize he has never used any of it and the one occasion in a decade can be added to with a cord from another circuit if needed.

 

[Stuff]

I look at it this way:

1 - A #14 wire with a 15 amp breaker is "safe" per NEC so no worries there.
2 - How often does a breaker trip from overload on a 15a circuit in a modern house? Most of the time I've seen trips is when space heaters are plugged in and then it takes hours. So for a normal situation with intermittent loads the difference between 14 and 12 gauge wire should not be an issue.

 

[MushCreek]

In our new house, I ran 20A for outlets; 15A for lighting. I had a number of places that needed 20A for code, so I just made all of the outlets 20A to avoid confusion. I went a bit overboard, with 26 breakers for a small, one bedroom house. I think the most outlets I have on one circuit is 7. The most problem I had stuffing wires was on the lighting. Even with 14 AWG, when you have three 3-way switches in one box, with 14-3 romex, it gets tight. I had to search a bit to find boxes that actually made code for that many wires and fixtures. One nice thing about 20A is that while I was building the house, I could plug the big shop tools in anywhere without popping a breaker. The same can't be said for AFI's though, as my shop vac and my compressor both pop those off.

 

[sberry]

I just did a rewire. It was a remodel of one I did a long time ago and remember then worried to tears about "what if" As I did it again was thinking how a single circuit could actually power all this.
When I look back a couple of the most important things I have learned are,,, don't lose all the little parts, big ones too for that matter. Take jobs all the way apart and clean up before asking everyone every question, observe and here goes,,, when it comes to good design form follows function with utilities, the standard methods are what I should be copying and a lot of internet are great mechanics but many answers are about how one did it,,, not always how it should be done.
Having said that,,, the things I preach and ***** on are usually places I have direct experience and usually sufficiently to the point I did it enough to make most mistakes.
As this pertains to rewiring a house,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, just did opne and started off on the wrong foot to fix some, I really cost myself a bunch of work due to basic start fukk ups and I know better,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
I still have better hindsight but some of the answers depend on existing construction and a rewire doesn't need to copy the original. But as to the basic question and there have been a lot of versions, none basically wrong but only a couple right and here is the most simple way to do it.
A fridge should have its own if a guy is doing a rewire. It doesn't draw much but its simple. A microwave should have its own ad then there are the counter tops and the laundry, all these pretty much mandated already, then consider 1 to specialized equipment a guy may want but the whole rest of the house can run a couple 3 20A circuits and if it has an available outlet a 12/20 circuit. I know 14 is easier to wire but this is almost all at floor level.
Then the rest of the small fussy hard wired fixtures and equipment on 15. When I look at a panel and see it this way I know exactly what the guy did, chasing wire down or doing renovation, no mistake about what is what. All the fussy overhead fixture and switch work is with lighter wire.
Can modify any outlet circuit in the house without turning the lights off. This eliminates a cluster of gfci issues in garages. But there is no savings to run a 14 multi wire over a common circuit extension of 20A It isn't that the fridge needs 20A but that the cleaning lady doesn't come along with a rattle trap vac and trip a circuit with sensitive equipment. The real used power is at the kitchen, the basic utilities, in small shops its a few lights running and really a single tool, 2 in some outright woodworking or specialists for vacuum etc but my neighbor has a hobby sized garage and a big imagination, runs all the tools from one circuit If he is running a hi power saw that's what he is doing. He has a lathe a mill, about 6 various saws and a couple sanders. Got another circuit for all the parasitic stuff and one for lights Has air and welding on 240v.

 

[sberry]

Mush, the dedicates add up fast. I just put 24 space in a 3 br 1 bath, I added about 2 over minimum within the house, 2 addl in the basement,1 for a sump pump, used up most of the spaces and have gas range. A replacement gas dryer would gain a couple back and its got electric water heater which could be converted.
A

 

[sberry]

Making specific rules for the kitchen was the best thing they ever did for homes, bath too. Old kitchens were often on 15 generals, my Grandmother lived to 100 on 15A before I had to look and go holy sheet when we got her a new microwave.
I just replaced one had the kitchen counter incl a light, had the fridge and bathroom on a 15

 

[sberry]

I could have saved myself a little grief by cutting some drywall out from the backside on the kitchen. I don't do the stuff enough to know or remember every trick, those tv shows are great and love the electrician on this old house. Also with renovation you run in to the fact that not all old work was standard practice.

 

[Alchymist]

Doesn't it take like +1/3 to trip a breaker? So that's like 27 amps.

Circuit breakers trip on a time curve. Light overload, long time to trip. More overload, less time. Short circuit - instantaneous trip.

http://www.carlingtech.com/trip-time-delay

 

[bczygan]

I have an old house where I ran separate circuits to bedrooms and another outlet on another to the master for use with electric heaters but,,,, This is like needing 2 parts washers and other over the top deals you really have no use for. Believe it or not with minor exceptions the code legal wiring is adequate.
This is about like the 2 circuits in every 4x4 in the garage every 4 ft, while we like to think we are the baddest and going to need gobs of power about 3 general circuits would supply all the basic power in my shop.
A guy will come to one morning and realize he has never used any of it and the one occasion in a decade can be added to with a cord from another circuit if needed.

Well,
We are running one of those fridges without a compressor, an electric space heater, TV, stereo, powered sub-woofer, microwave, hotplate, toaster oven, coffee maker, computer, phone, 5 lamps, a keyboard with amp, a clock radio and a fan from one 15A circuit with a 20A re-settable fuse in it. If I forget to turn off the heater when using the microwave, it blows. If I use the keyboard, it blows. Sometimes, after a wile, it just blows anyway. Have to be careful what's on.

I need more power!

Could run a HD extension cord down the stairs, or out the window, to catch these heater and microwave and toaster oven loads for now. But I have grown to like having the ability to have a small fridge upstairs, and the need for power for AC and heater is a given.

I also like your idea and another guys here, for running all the general illumination lighting (Read that as ceiling mounted switched lights) on one 15A circuit. There is still the plugged in lamps in almost every room, that provide light if that circuit trips.

So I guess that using standard practice, and adding circuits where additional equipment is installed, should do it.

Bill

 

[trainer]

I've got a cabin that's run off of a 120v/3000 watt generator. I've got a 6 breaker square d pony panel with a 20 amp "main" breaker feeding four 15 amp circuits.

It's pretty basic but it shows how much you can get out of one 20a circuit.

2 bedrooms and living room space ...1single light fixture and one outlet in each
plus a 34" tv, sattelite receiver, bookshelf stereo on a 4x4 outlet.

bathroom and utility room... two light fixtures and three outlets total.

kitchen... one outlet (coffee maker and toaster) four t-8, 2 lamp fixtures.

Outside .. 200w floodlight and 1500w portable hottub.

I have to turn off the hot tub to use the the toaster, but otherwise everything will run at once.

 

[Inabox85]

I read how you mentioned all the stuff your running and made it a point to point out there is a TV in every room. A 50 inch tv only draws 2 or 3 amp. Most consumers products were designed to be run on 15 amp circuts. However with that said I have always found that an any bedroom I've been in there are never enough outlets where you need them. I think in bedroom quantity win out.

 

[MushCreek]

I just looked it up; my 50 inch Vizio uses 48 watts, or 0.4 amps. Not much parasitic draw either; less than 1/2 a watt when turned off.

 

[Playwme]

7 table lamps? WTF?

 

[Stuff]

Lots of old houses around here were wired with only 4 fused 15 amp circuits. With gas appliances there was one circuit for kitchen and bath, one for furnace, one for left side of house, and one for right side of house. This all works fine until space heaters and other high draw devices are added.

Modern code adds a lot for kitchens and other areas quadrupling the number of circuits needed. Bottom line is that code minimum works using 14 and 12 gauge wire as required. Just beef up for any planned high draw loads.

 

[reader2580]

7 table lamps? WTF?

I was thinking the same thing about all that stuff in the master bedroom. I was wondering if the OP has a huge master suite with all the stuff plugged in.

I put ceiling lights in every room of my house that didn't have them when I was remodeling. I only have one lamp in the house in the living room. In my old house it was just for looks, but I use it now instead of the ceiling light when watching TV. The ceiling light glares off the TV.