220 and 110 circuit intermittent

[tomstin]

In my daughter’s townhouse the stove’s 220 circuit and the refrigerator’s 110 line (both in the kitchen) and the 110 line to the heater (in the attic) go out intermittently and come back on their own. I found a few wires loose at the breakers. The breakers are not hot and don’t trip. It’s always the same circuits and the rest of the house is fine. Thoughts?

 

[PT Doc]

If those circuits have intermittent problems and you found loose wires then I am hopeful you sorted the problem out. We're the wires looks on those specific circuits?

 

[kd3pc]

I would look closely at the other end of those breaker wires....very closely. and then walk back and do as decent a visual as I could..could be some hungry rodents have left their mark on them..

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Figure out if those circuits are fed from same side of service coming in to house.
Might be a problem with power coming from pole outside.

 

[EOC_Jason]

It could be one leg is having issues coming into the house... She might not just notice some of the other 110v stuff around the place because they could be plugs that arn't used often, or lights in some room that aren't on all the time...

I would check ALL the wires in the panel, including the ones coming from the meter. Inspect for damage, corrosion, etc... Probably wouldn't hurt to go over all of them to make sure they are tight.

Depending on how the meter can is setup, if there's a main disconnect under it you might want to check all those too.

Finally if you can get to the receptacles in the kitchen I would check them too and ensure they are tight.

Is the power coming in underground or aerial?

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

Are the 110 volt breakers on the same side in the panel. If so the problem could be a bad connector before the power hits the panel. Then this would be a problem for your power supplier. One way to tell would be to use a meter checking for power when the trouble is apparent.

 

[teamextreme]

I agree it sounds like it could be a bad phase somewhere from the main breaker upstream, but remember all the breakers on the same phase are NOT all on the same side of the panel, they alternate positions top to bottom, A, B, A, B, etc. on both sides.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

I agree it sounds like it could be a bad phase somewhere from the main breaker upstream, but remember all the breakers on the same phase are NOT all on the same side of the panel, they alternate positions top to bottom, A, B, A, B, etc. on both sides.

Good catch. It was a probably 10plus years ago when I came across this problem at the lake. When I called in the problem the power contact had a tough time believing that I could diagnose the problem. The visiting tech did the repair and we chatted for awhile. He borrowed me his loopers so I could trim out some trees. Years later we ran into each other while staying at a Travel Lodge where we were able to buy each other a beer.

 

[Lelandwelds]

A former employer was selling two branch locations. One potential buyer hired an engineering firm to inspect the entire plant. They had these test rigs sort of like a tone generator for cat 5 cables.

One guy working solo tested every circuit in the entire plant, warehouse, and office. He assigned new ID for every breaker and circuit and produced a bound report with embedded photos and footnotes and tables. It was impressive. Every receptacle with swapped hot nuetral was identified. Anything not up to the current code was found and a best case fix was spelled out. An estimated repair cost was included.

He took two days to check out both Austin and San Antonio plants and write the reports. It was impressive.

It must be possible to do something similiar on a smaller scale.

 

[tomstin]

Thanks for all the ideas. Intermittent power makes me nervous. One leg of the feed coming into the house makes sense to me. The box is dry with no sign of rodent issues. The gang that renovated this place 6 years ago used a lot of short cuts...perfume on the pig so to speak. I regularly come across stuff they covered up to look pretty.

I’m thinking I’ll switch off the main power and pull the related breakers and take a closer look at each one along with the wires. Also, I’ll confirm what order the breakers are in the box. Unfortunately I’ve never been there when the power is off so I’m not sure if other circuits are effected. I’ll also look at the meter from the outside.

Thanks for the ideas.

 

[matt_i]

I think a potential clue is to see if the intermittent 120vac circuits in question are fed from the same side (L1 or L2) of the bus inside the circuit panel. The 240vac circuits use a connection to both the L1 and L2 sides so those don't matter, but it all hints at one side having an intermittent connection.

Its possible one of the main lugs connections is loose in the circuit panel or also at the meter base but assessing the torque on those connections is best done with power off.

I once had the incoming power feed to my meter base apparently get wrecked by landscapers who were finishing off the house. One leg went completely open, I was convinced this was a power outage and was going down to check the circuit panel, it was a ghostly feeling to see a LED indicator still glowing in the basement. But checks of the panel showed I only had 120vac on L2 and nothing on L1. Power company came out and located and spliced this while I was at work, so I never got to see what they actually did to repair it.

 

[EOC_Jason]

Reason I asked if aerial coming in, I've seen where those brass split-nuts corrode on the aluminum wire. Had one leg acting weird and when the poco poked the splice with their fiberglass pole and saw the lights flicker he knew what the cause was...

But in this case, if it's underground and it is one leg then more than likely a loose lug somewhere along the chain. Will probably need them to come out and pull the meter to check everything thoroughly.

 

[ez-duzit]

If conductors are aluminum, there's your problem.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So many possibilities here.

Best thing to do is put a logging meter on the incoming service and leave it for few days.

This will tell you if its an issue with the service on the PoCo side or a branch circuit issue.

If the PoCo feed is direct burial underground, then it may be failing.

 

[Miss the Pontiacs]

This summer at the lake we had problems with the electricity again. But instead of what happen years ago with a loss of one phase due to a bad connector. We would have a fade in power and that maybe alright for bulbs but is definitely not great for fridges, freezers etc. Called the power guys and it was again a connector but on our share pole with the neighbour. They had been doing some trenching and it must have compromised the pole. Guys fixed it record time and we were back to normal. I swear someday I’m going to bury my service to the cabin.

 

[tomstin]

I think we got it! When I arrived at the house today the power was out and sure enough one leg coming into the box was dead. I called the power company and they opened the meter box. Some of the lugs showed signs of heat and corrosion. They cleaned up the lugs and everything seems fine. Time will tell! I have to say these guys were as nice and helpful has they could be!

 

[EOC_Jason]

Good deal! Fingers crossed that is all it was. Easy enough for them to fix too.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

What did they do to cleanup the lugs?

If they were melted, they should be replaced.

 

[tomstin]

What did they do to cleanup the lugs?

If they were melted, they should be replaced.

They spent a good bit of time wire brushing the lugs and connectors along with crimping the connectors. Added some dielectric grease. They were not melted. As soon as he pulled the meter I mentioned "that doesn't look right." The connectors looked like they needed a cleaning. The house is 20+ years old and judging from the number of tags in the box, it was probably a rental at one point.

But I do agree, if it happens again, I will get the box replaced.

If something develops I update the thread.

Not to start something, but I try to close out my threads when asking for help. This way, for the next guy that comes searching, they have the whole story. I get frustrated on a few of the other forums I follow when someone asks for help, people chime in with suggestions, and the OP never comes back and updates with what resolved the issue.

The whole idea here is to share expertise and experience!

 

[larry4406]

They spent a good bit of time wire brushing the lugs and connectors along with crimping the connectors. Added some dielectric grease. They were not melted. As soon as he pulled the meter I mentioned "that doesn't look right." The connectors looked like they needed a cleaning. The house is 20+ years old and judging from the number of tags in the box, it was probably a rental at one point.

But I do agree, if it happens again, I will get the box replaced.

If something develops I update the thread.

Not to start something, but I try to close out my threads when asking for help. This way, for the next guy that comes searching, they have the whole story. I get frustrated on a few of the other forums I follow when someone asks for help, people chime in with suggestions, and the OP never comes back and updates with what resolved the issue.

The whole idea here is to share expertise and experience!

Thread closure is greatly appreciated! I have searched various subjects, thought I finally found the holy grail of a thread with my exact issue, only to find the thread OP never provides closure!

Had a new home under construction and we were loosing a leg just like yours. Power company came and jerked the meter and found a loose connection on their side. I have also had a lost leg from a splice underground.

As an aside, in my area the meter can is the property of the power company. Thus if it ever becomes damaged and in need of replacement, they are responsible. The property owner's scope begins with the SER landed on the meter can terminals.