220 outlet questions

[Kaizen]

Trying to map out my power needs for the garage. Subpanel will be about 100 amps. Going to potentially need a good number of 220 devices. Compressor will most likely be on its own 50amp. Will wire other boxes in series.
Are there 220 outlets that have the load and line on them like a 110 outlet or is it standard to pigtail the box?
Any downside to running ground with the two hots and neutral?
Most likely will be using #6 stranded as I have some. This will be in conduit. Do I need 1inch conduit if it’s short runs and only straight?


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[wyliesdiesels]

Trying to map out my power needs for the garage. Subpanel will be about 100 amps. Going to potentially need a good number of 220 devices. Compressor will most likely be on its own 50amp.

Whats the HP rating on the comp motor?

Will wire other boxes in series.

AC wiring is done in parallel not series

Are there 220 outlets that have the load and line on them like a 110 outlet or is it standard to pigtail the box?

not for the higher amp outlets, have to splice

Any downside to running ground with the two hots and neutral?
Most likely will be using #6 stranded as I have some. This will be in conduit. Do I need 1inch conduit if it’s short runs and only straight?

I dont understand your question here. You most definitely need a ground wire unless you use metal conduit and bond properly. And 240v doesnt need a neutral...

How much equipment do you have? Why do you need so many 240v outlets? Does all the equipment need a 50a outlet? How about listing the equipment you have?

 

[Kaizen]

Whats the HP rating on the comp motor?
7.5 hp


AC wiring is done in parallel not series sorry wrong term.......basically saying i'm going to have multiple boxes on one breaker



not for the higher amp outlets, have to splice



I dont understand your question here. You most definitely need a ground wire unless you use metal conduit and bond properly. And 240v doesnt need a neutral...

How much equipment do you have? Why do you need so many 240v outlets? Does all the equipment need a 50a outlet? How about listing the equipment you have?

I've run a dryer outlet before with a 4 wire. So wondering if i should be doing that here or just the 3 wire plugs? I am planning on 240 devices initially for the compressor, dust collection, powdercoat oven, welder, car lift. I want three welding plugs so i don't need a 30 foot cord on my welders. So i'm thinking compressor on its own, dust collection and one additional in the woodworking area for future machine, and one for the oven, welding locations x3, and car lift. this is based on panel location and the tools being on one side or the other of the box. I will be using emt for all of this with grounded boxes.

 

[sberry]

It's not a sin to run a couple of pipes vs trying to shove it all down one. I prefer to use 3/4 if possible vs inch, just nicer to buy fittings etc for one or 2 sizes vs several. You can share a pipe for smaller wires easy enough but for the comp run the 6 down a pipe to it. If you daisy chain welder receipts need to use 6 on them if they are breakered at 50.
I just ran one with 2 outlets and smaller wires but,,, both sets of wires go back to the breaker, can't overload the wire.
My hoist has a welder outlet,, but ran wire matching breaker size for it. When they are individual circuits wire may be tailored according to potential load but not for multiple outlets in a daisy chain.
Use deeper boxes where welder outlets or gfci will go.

 

[Kaizen]

My hoist has a welder outlet,, but ran wire matching breaker size for it. When they are individual circuits wire may be tailored according to potential load but not for multiple outlets in a daisy chain.
.

I'm sizing the daisy chain outlets for maximum voltage requirements. Most likely a 50. So even though i might have another device that needs 30 i'm covered. Right?

Part of this exercise is drawing out my conduit runs and how they will interact with air supply and dust collection lines. Not afraid to run more if needed but trying to make sure its aesthetically pleasing.

 

[sberry]

Not everything 230 is designed to run from 50A. Welders that come plug and cord with 50 end are although many only require 30. If a machine comes with factory plug/cord then the breaker size is limited to the plug style.
With stuff that is hard wired it is up to the installer ( hence most instructions suggest getting lic electrician) to determine the safe overcurrent protection. Some machines depend on the breaker to provide short circuit protection within the machine and even its supply wire or cord.

 

[Stuart in MN]

I've run a dryer outlet before with a 4 wire. So wondering if i should be doing that here or just the 3 wire plugs?

I think what Wyliesdiesels was getting at is you always need to include a ground wire, but not always a neutral...a dryer needs a neutral wire since it has both 240vac and 120vac requirements, while some other things like a welder or an air compressor typically don't need the neutral wire since they only have 240vac requirements.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I've run a dryer outlet before with a 4 wire. So wondering if i should be doing that here or just the 3 wire plugs? I am planning on 240 devices initially for the compressor, dust collection, powdercoat oven, welder, car lift. I want three welding plugs so i don't need a 30 foot cord on my welders. So i'm thinking compressor on its own, dust collection and one additional in the woodworking area for future machine, and one for the oven, welding locations x3, and car lift. this is based on panel location and the tools being on one side or the other of the box. I will be using emt for all of this with grounded boxes.

A 7.5HP motor is required to be hardwired. A 240v outlet will not work.

In regards to the dryer outlet, that will not work for most of your equipment and you would need adapters.

A dryer outlet is 120v/240v- 3 wire doesnt have a ground, only a neutral
4-wire does have a ground and neutral

240v equipment doesnt need a neutral.

Dust collector is either 20a or 30a 240v depending on motor HP rating.

The oven is 30a or 50a if it is actually a stove.

The outlet required for the welder depends on the model.

the lift may need to be hardwired if the motor is more than 3HP

So the devil is in the details and you would need to get into those before doing any wiring.

 

[sberry]

The outlet required for the welder depends on the model.

If its 240V have never seen one come with plug that wasn't 50A. I think its a NEMA thing, a standard. The straight 240 models come 12 cord 50 end on the small ones, the DVI actually come 14 cord but,,,, they have a 50A adapter and I think there is ocpd in the adapter,,, hence they have specific instructions not to mess with the ends.
The old ones came no end, some like my plas is dvi and 1 or 3 ph and they call for installer provided end. They list a max breaker for them.

 

[sberry]

They do call for different wire depending on model.

 

[Kaizen]

Ok thanks for the additional info. I wanted to pipe everything and then have them ship the compressor and lift. For now i think i will just put in the conduit so that is done and then run the wire and plug after the equipment is installed.

 

[sberry]

Lifts require 12 wire, some allow 14 depending on voltage and wiring methods. The installers for them are hit and miss too. Lots of them provide a plug to insure means of disconnect. Not always the correct stuff but its there.
A 7.5 comp takes a 6 cable or 8 in pipe, if you have some 6 it will be a cant miss. Nothing wrong with piping ahead and pulling wire later either. I just wire 2 outlets for a neighbor shop, he wanted a minimum type thing but when he wasn't looking I up the wire a size and put 12 in, he has 2 compact 200 machines. One allow 48 ft of 14 and the other 67 ft of 14, he had a roll of 12AC and I split it and put them on 30. The minimum is a bit light and suffers some V drop, not a fan.
The only machines that come plug that require larger than 12 in pipe are 250 class migs, a couple of the heaviest such as MM252 call for 8, I think the Hobart IM230 and some of the Lincolns call for 10. If you are not using a 250 a 10 is well adequate for the rest of the machines and even the big ones run from it for home garages with small wire and C25 gas.

 

[mcbane]

A 7.5HP motor is required to be hardwired. A 240v outlet will not work.

Normally a large compressor doesn’t get moved around so there is no benefit to using a plug and receptacle. But if the compressor really needs to be portable, you just need to buy a receptacle and matching plug that are listed for motor circuit switch disconnecting. You can get that equipment rated for 7.5 HP or larger motors though single phase motors over 7.5 hp are unusual. Have lots of $$$ for the receptacle and plug set.


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[Kaizen]

Normally a large compressor doesn’t get moved around so there is no benefit to using a plug and receptacle. But if the compressor really needs to be portable, you just need to buy a receptacle and matching plug that are listed for motor circuit switch disconnecting. You can get that equipment rated for 7.5 HP or larger motors though single phase motors over 7.5 hp are unusual. Have lots of $$$ for the receptacle and plug set.


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Good you guys pointed it out. Think I will be running this to some kind of a disconnect as the compressor will be in a small closet and I’d like to have a shutoff easily accessible.


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[wyliesdiesels]

Good you guys pointed it out. Think I will be running this to some kind of a disconnect as the compressor will be in a small closet and I’d like to have a shutoff easily accessible.


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If the comp will be out of sight and more than 50' from the panel, then a disconnect is required.

 

[Kaizen]

If the comp will be out of sight and more than 50' from the panel, then a disconnect is required.

Right. Only about ten feet so not required but i'd like to have a switch of some sort so i can shut it off when i won't be using it for awhile. One more thing to figure out will be how to trigger the compressor with a light switch. Assuming something in the magnetic starter or pressure switch

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Right. Only about ten feet so not required but i'd like to have a switch of some sort so i can shut it off when i won't be using it for awhile. One more thing to figure out will be how to trigger the compressor with a light switch. Assuming something in the magnetic starter or pressure switch

you said it will be in a closet. Is the panel viewable from the closet while working on the compressor?

And yes the mag starter coil can be energized via a light switch inline with the pressure switch. Just make sure to use a 240v rated switch.

 

[sberry]

I agree that a guy can hook up controls but,,, one of the easiest and best ways is to have a leak free system and or use the ball valve off the tank and simply shut it in. Air stays charged, no leaks means no run. I was at a buds a while back, had fixed something there and with the valve off the comp was charged for months.
I can get creative and probably would have way back in my early days, would have wired up and hooked every gizmo I could find or they had invented to it. today I try to leave a lot of it stock if I can help it.

There was a thread here recent about hooking lights to the door opener. Its not a bad idea, on some level nothing really wrong with it but if I was doing it today would customize the aux light circuit and leave the door opener stock. Simply don't need to wonder about the capacity of the parts, makes for simple trouble shooting, easy replacement, increases reliability, avoids confusion, one failure doesn't disrupt everything.

This is just personal preference, just a point I have evolved to. Not that I do this all right. In fact most of the stuff I babble on about in these threads are the result of stuff I done wrong rather than the success. Only reason I suggest most of it is I tried the hard way, made the mistakes, cost too much for what its worth etc. Often didn't make any difference, plans changed, any number of things including after I did something the lights come on and wish I would have done it different.
I did a plumbing job yesterday like this, I decided one day, by the time I got to it had completely changed the design and figured out a better much less complex way of doing it with a lot less fittings.

 

[Kaizen]

I agree that a guy can hook up controls but,,, one of the easiest and best ways is to have a leak free system and or use the ball valve off the tank and simply shut it in. Air stays charged, no leaks means no run. I was at a buds a while back, had fixed something there and with the valve off the comp was charged for months.
I can get creative and probably would have way back in my early days, would have wired up and hooked every gizmo I could find or they had invented to it. today I try to leave a lot of it stock if I can help it.

There was a thread here recent about hooking lights to the door opener. Its not a bad idea, on some level nothing really wrong with it but if I was doing it today would customize the aux light circuit and leave the door opener stock. Simply don't need to wonder about the capacity of the parts, makes for simple trouble shooting, easy replacement, increases reliability, avoids confusion, one failure doesn't disrupt everything.

This is just personal preference, just a point I have evolved to. Not that I do this all right. In fact most of the stuff I babble on about in these threads are the result of stuff I done wrong rather than the success. Only reason I suggest most of it is I tried the hard way, made the mistakes, cost too much for what its worth etc. Often didn't make any difference, plans changed, any number of things including after I did something the lights come on and wish I would have done it different.
I did a plumbing job yesterday like this, I decided one day, by the time I got to it had completely changed the design and figured out a better much less complex way of doing it with a lot less fittings.

I hear you loud and clear. Thats what i currently do or i just shut off the on/off on the tank as its right near the door in my old garage. In the new setup I want a lightswitch so when i shut the lights i can shut off the compressor as well. I know myself well enough that i'm too damn lazy after i'm finished working on something to put away my tools or open a door and shut it off. So trying to account for my known defects in my perfect garage.

I will be using the rapid air setup and was hopeful it would hold air perfectly but saw a video of a guy install one and he was waaaaay more meticulous on his installation then i will be and he still says he has leak down......not huge but still leakdown. I don't want that to be kicking on the compressor in the middle of the night.

 

[Kaizen]

you said it will be in a closet. Is the panel viewable from the closet while working on the compressor?

And yes the mag starter coil can be energized via a light switch inline with the pressure switch. Just make sure to use a 240v rated switch.

When in the compressor closet with the door open I will not be able to see the panel. I figured this will need a shutoff in the closet right? This is the shutoff i referred to earlier.........in addition to the lightswitch.