220V and 120V service

[Sasquatch912]

Hey guys, I'm just trying to see what I need for my electrical connection in my shop I will eventually get.

I plan to have the standard shop lights.

Then I plan to run an 220v air compressor, plasma cutter, and welder.

I will also need outlets for 120v or 110v..whatever it is...to run a drill press and other tools. Might even run a small fridge.

So I am assuming I will need a huge breaker box inside the shop.

I will also see if the power company will run me a pole to get power to the place first; they should.


What size wire will I need, etc?

 

[James-W]

Are you planning o n running a power cable from your house electrical service out to the shop, or do you want a separate service for the shop?

 

[Sasquatch912]

It will be a seperate service pole

 

[James-W]

So you want to have a separate meter for the shop, is that not right?

What you should do is sit down and write down a list of all the items you have and how much power each one draws. Try to figure out how much of a load you will be drawing at any given time. Obviously you won't have everything running at the same time, unless you have a shop where several people are working.

So once you know how much of a maximum load you will be pulling you can determine what size electrical service you need. I suspect the power company will run lines for either a 100 amp service or a 200 amp service since these are two sizes most often installed.

 

[Sasquatch912]

Thats is true. Let me figure out what equipment I will be using and find the amps.

I may get a Hypertherm 45 plasma cutter and an AC/DC welder then a 220v MIG and a good running 220V compressor

 

[csp]

Go with 200 amp and be done with it. There is no such thing as 240v and 120v. The 120 is just one hot leg of the 240's two hots.

 

[R.Anderson]

If the POCO is supplying the material to the panel at no cost to you I would just go with 200amp and be covered for any future expansion. Here the POCO covers 100' from a existing power pole no cost to me that's plowing it in to the meter and going under a road. How big is the building going to be?

 

[Sasquatch912]

The whole building will be 30x50. 30x30 will be the shop the other 20 will be an open shed. Will have a couple of lights under the shed.

I may go back later and enclose the 20' section and make a wood shop..when funds allow.

 

[theoldwizard1]

It will be a seperate service pole

This is usually more expensive than just coming off of your exiting breaker panel inside the house.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Thats is true. Let me figure out what equipment I will be using and find the amps.

I may get a Hypertherm 45 plasma cutter and an AC/DC welder then a 220v MIG and a good running 220V compressor

Absolutely ! Assuming you ar NOT going to be running all 3 at the same time, but you might want A/C in the future, 90A is likely adequate, possibly even 60A.

Go with 200 amp and be done with it.

Total OVERKILL and BIG $$$, unless you know some one is handing out free wire !

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Check with your PoCO first. Many charge higher rates and extra monthly fees for second meter on the property

 

[Kenrevo]

I assume you want the second meter to keep track on the power the shop uses. You could just add a personal meter and run a feed from the house. Something like this, it's just to show you what I'm talking about I don't know if it's a good brand. It's probably going to be cheaper and running another service.

 

[Onewolf]

Since we don't know what the feed is to the house we can only speculate whether he _could_ run a drop to the detached garage. And it sounds like he wants a separate drop/meter anyway.

 

[gungatim]

All I will say is that in my area, a 2nd meter is expensive. it will be commercial rate, not home rate and definitely costs more per kwh. don't know about your area. when we did that with a family member's 50x100, we actually put the building on the new meter and was able to get rid of the meter on the house and feed the house from the pole barn. House is old farm house with 60 amp service so with some extra fee's and sweet talking the poco, we were able to get around the commercial rate, but it was like pulling teeth to get them to agree, and we had to do ALL the work and of course they only now cover to the new meter, not the house if anything happens...

as for power needs, if you are going to do it fresh from scratch, I would go the full monty and get 200 amp. if you run a line from the house, I can pretty much guarantee 60 amps is plenty, unless you have 3 guys running multiple 220v tools at once.

I ran 60 amp wire to my shop but used an existing 40 amp breaker box I had added in the garage (I know, a no-no) so I have 60 amps available limited by a 40 amp breaker.

I run 220v: Air Compressor, welder, lift, and an electric water heater (sort of...). 120 is fridge, and all other power tools, mill, lathe, grinders, furnace, 4 amps, arcade machine, LOTS of lights, etc.

I have never once tripped the 40 amp breaker...MAYBE if I added A/C I'd need to re-do the garage box with a 60 amp breaker, but I doubt it...

btw, I use a LOT of power, and am in the shop everyday. my bill is around $250/mth on average...

 

[matt_i]

The PoCo usually furnishes material to the meter base as part of the install.

So the "dreaded high dollar wire" is just a few feet to get from the meter base on the exterior of the building to the main lugs in the circuit panel on the interior....not so dreadful if you ask me as long as the two can be placed closely.

Its best to do research and see exactly what the PoCo supplies and charges. In my area there's a "basic meter charge" no matter if zero kWh is used in a month's time....so making a detached outbuilding a sub panel, that charge is avoided. Its not insignificant...its $25-30/mo which adds up over months and years.

 

[Sasquatch912]

The shop is on our farm and is near another pole that we use for a well pump. I guess they could hook it up through there?

This shop will be by itself but far away from where my brother lives on the property.


I wont be in the shop everyday because I live in town for now.

Thanks guys

 

[turfgnome]

I would not recommend doing anything less then 90 amps as I personally have used more then 60 amps in my garage at the same time. Most air compressors will kick on whenever they need to, running say a welder, the fridge, lights and a few other small items when the compressor kicks on could cause low voltage.

 

[Sasquatch912]

so 90 amp breakers?

 

[Angelfire]

The first step, and it's already been mentioned, is to do a load calculation. Figure out all the devices you have and figure out how much power you will need at any given time. Keep in mind that many devices will not be getting run at the same times assuming this is a one man shop (ie. plasma cutter and welder). Then figure out what you might need for the future assuming you don't want to have to upgrade again down the road. Add all that up and you'll have an idea of what size service you'll need. Then figure out where this service will come from....could be the house if it's supplied with enough power to cover both dwellings....might have to be a new pole....can't tell until you know what you really need. Just as a comparison, I have a 32x40 with a good bit of equipment, significant lighting, and outlets every 6-8ft.....I have yet to pop my 100A breaker and don't anticipate doing so.

Get your load calc done then come back with that so others can help.
Cheers.

 

[sberry]

If you run a new service run 200, really the same cost within a few $, if you are running it from an existing service then the 90A. If the distance is well past 100 ft then the wire size would need to be up sized from an existing to get 90, you can get 60 to about 200 ft or so with number 2 alum. Had a bud run a shop on this for 30 years, didn't do much welding but had 5 hp comp on continuous and a little air con on occasion.

 

[James-W]

This is usually more expensive than just coming off of your exiting breaker panel inside the house.

While this is technically true, many times homes only have a 100 amp service and depending on what they normally use for power in the house, it may not be feasible to tap into the house service panel for power to the garage/shop.

In that case they would need to upgrade their house electrical service and that could get to be a bit expensive. Then too, depending on where the shop is located, the expense to run the power cable may be quite costly as well.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

The shop is on our farm and is near another pole that we use for a well pump. I guess they could hook it up through there?

This shop will be by itself but far away from where my brother lives on the property.


I wont be in the shop everyday because I live in town for now.

Thanks guys

Really depends on whats there. Is the pump fed from the house or an entirely seperate service?

If seperate service what is the size of the service?

 

[Sasquatch912]

In the below photo is the meter box.

Think this is a 200 amp box.

the main and the 30 amo breaker operates our water pump. the 60 amp was operating our hunters camper

The open area that you see past the tree behind meter box is where I am putting my shop.

 

[theoldwizard1]

While this is technically true, many times homes only have a 100 amp service and depending on what they normally use for power in the house, it may not be feasible to tap into the house service panel for power to the garage/shop.

In that case they would need to upgrade their house electrical service and that could get to be a bit expensive. Then too, depending on where the shop is located, the expense to run the power cable may be quite costly as well.

Most PoCo have a minimum monthly charge for a drop/meter. That $10-$20 per month can eat up the price of some wire in a year or 2.

Of course, if you are in a farming area, you probably can get a farm rate for that building.

 

[turfgnome]

so 90 amp breakers?

no an example would be a 100amp box, you will need a few 30 amp breakers for your welder, air compressor and other things as you add them.

 

[Sasquatch912]

Well in the above post is the meter box I am wondering if I can use. Then i will put a breaker box in the shop.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

In the below photo is the meter box.

Think this is a 200 amp box.

the main and the 30 amo breaker operates our water pump. the 60 amp was operating our hunters camper

The open area that you see past the tree behind meter box is where I am putting my shop.

One red flag is the mismatch of brand of breaker. Most likely thats a GE panel that shouldnt have those SQ D breakers in it.

So the 60a isnt in use anymore?

If so u could take that out, feed the shop from here by putting in the correct brand of breaker and run the feeder to the shop.

How long is the run from this meter main to the shop?

 

[James-W]

Most PoCo have a minimum monthly charge for a drop/meter. That $10-$20 per month can eat up the price of some wire in a year or 2.

Of course, if you are in a farming area, you probably can get a farm rate for that building.

There is a monthly meter charge for the service, mine is about $10 per month. But if I were to run power from my house to the garage I would of had to upgrade my house electrical service before doing anything. That means having the power company come out and change the lines coming to the house and they would charge to do that because it is not a new service. Then I would need to have a master electrician pull a permit and do the wiring, around here a homeowner can't pull a permit and do the service hookup, it must be done by a master electrician. I did not check the cost of doing this, but I can imagine the cost would be around $2,000, if not more. But that cost is without running the new power cable out to the garage and hooking everything up.

I get what you are saying and I agree with you in principal, but I tend to think that many times it isn't practical to run the power from the house. A new service the power company will run the lines for free, up to 100 feet. The only cost is the monthly meter charge, whatever the local cost is for the area you are in. Yes, in the long term the monthly charge will add up to be more than the cost of running it from the house, but who is to say we will live here that long? Also, if you have to borrow the money to pay for the upgrade to the house electrical service, then you have interest to pay on the loan as well. It's just something to consider when doing a project like this. .

 

[Worsedog]

One red flag is the mismatch of brand of breaker. Most likely thats a GE panel that shouldnt have those SQ D breakers in it.

So the 60a isnt in use anymore?

If so u could take that out, feed the shop from here by putting in the correct brand of breaker and run the feeder to the shop.

How long is the run from this meter main to the shop?

Is that four 200A breakers?? If the service matches the panel, power won't be an issue with 400A available.

Providing of course, a reasonable distance from the panel to the shop.

 

[Sasquatch912]

One red flag is the mismatch of brand of breaker. Most likely thats a GE panel that shouldnt have those SQ D breakers in it.

So the 60a isnt in use anymore?

If so u could take that out, feed the shop from here by putting in the correct brand of breaker and run the feeder to the shop.

How long is the run from this meter main to the shop?

I think to the corner of where the shop will be will at least be 100 feet or less.

Why GE brand? Just wondering. I thought the breakers will work no matter who made the box?

Is that four 200A breakers?? If the service matches the panel, power won't be an issue with 400A available.

Providing of course, a reasonable distance from the panel to the shop.

Yeah that's the main breaker which operates the deep well pump and then the 60 amp breakers were for the 220v in our hunters campers.

Used to power our corn bin right next to the pole too.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Is that four 200A breakers?? If the service matches the panel, power won't be an issue with 400A available.

Providing of course, a reasonable distance from the panel to the shop.

Negative. Thats a 200a breaker not a 400a.

I think to the corner of where the shop will be will at least be 100 feet or less.

Why GE brand? Just wondering. I thought the breakers will work no matter who made the box?

Yeah that's the main breaker which operates the deep well pump and then the 60 amp breakers were for the 220v in our hunters campers.

Used to power our corn bin right next to the pole too.

I shouldve said my last comment differently.

Im assuming its a GE panel. But it could be another brand that is listed and labeled for use with GE breakers.

No u cant put any brand of breaker in a panel. It needs to be the correct brand and model according to the panel label.

If the run is 100' or less u could use #2 al MHF with a 90a feeding breaker.

U will need 2 ground rods and make sure the neutral bar in the subpanel is isolated.

 

[Sasquatch912]

Negative. Thats a 200a breaker not a 400a.



I shouldve said my last comment differently.

Im assuming its a GE panel. But it could be another brand that is listed and labeled for use with GE breakers.

No u cant put any brand of breaker in a panel. It needs to be the correct brand and model according to the panel label.

If the run is 100' or less u could use #2 al MHF with a 90a feeding breaker.

U will need 2 ground rods and make sure the neutral bar in the subpanel is isolated.

Ok so..

Meter box outside will need a 90amp breaker; assuming this will be able to run my compressor, welder, and plasma cutter....but not all at once.
Run the #2 al MHF from meter box underground to my subpanel inside shop

Two ground rods from subpanel to ground and make sure the neutral bar in subpanel is isolated.

Will this box work?
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Square-D-6...-Main-Breaker-Load-Center-Value-Pack/50311159

 

[wyliesdiesels]

90a will be plenty.

As long as the run is around 100' u will be fine with #2 al.

That panel will work.

U will probably have to buy a seperate ground bar kit.

Remove any green bonding screw from the neutral bar.

Is there a label on your meter main?

 

[Sasquatch912]

90a will be plenty.

As long as the run is around 100' u will be fine with #2 al.

That panel will work.

U will probably have to buy a seperate ground bar kit.

Remove any green bonding screw from the neutral bar.

Is there a label on your meter main?

Ok thanks.

Label? Like in what make it is?

Also that subpanel...what amp breakers should I use?

I may get a Hypertherm 45 plasma cutter, a lincoln ac/dc welder, either a hobart or miller mig welder, and I am still undecided on an air compressor. Then I will be using the regular plug ins for lights and power tools.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Ok thanks.

Label? Like in what make it is?

Also that subpanel...what amp breakers should I use?

I may get a Hypertherm 45 plasma cutter, a lincoln ac/dc welder, either a hobart or miller mig welder, and I am still undecided on an air compressor. Then I will be using the regular plug ins for lights and power tools.

There should be a paper label on thr inside that lists what breakers can be used in it.

As far as which breakers to use u have look at the specs of the equipment.

For the compressor it depends ln the HP rating of the motor.

 

[Norcal]

As to that 4 pole wide GE breaker, it is only a 2 pole 200A breaker, various manufacturers have made them, beginning in the 1970's w/ I-T-E (now Siemens), Cutler-Hammer, GE, & Square D, all have used them.

Square D Homeline breakers are not UL classified to be used in any competitive loadcenter make, they are only listed to be used in Homeline panels, so their use is a big red flag as shown above.

Circuit breakers are listed to be used in the same make of equipment, but UL does classify some breakers to be used in competitive makes, Eaton does have some that are but need the paperwork to prove it. Unless the breaker is obsolete, or the company changed hands, it's best to use OEM breakers, not a "will fit" breaker & there are a lot of ones that do physically fit across different makes.

 

[Sasquatch912]

Im going to go to the power company and get a quote on a 100 amp and 200 amp meter and pole.

Guess wont hurt to ask.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Im going to go to the power company and get a quote on a 100 amp and 200 amp meter and pole.

Guess wont hurt to ask.

It won't hurt ... MUCH !

 

[Sasquatch912]

It won't hurt ... MUCH !

It hurt a lot. Think I need to see a physciatrist.

$700 for them to install pole and meter.

Showed the engineer the current box that i posted on here. He said I can install a 100 amp breaker and run wire to a sub panel like yall were recommending me. He said that would be what he would do.

It would be $125 for them to hook up power to my own pole and meter.

 

[Sasquatch912]

what size breaker for this welder?

http://www.everlastgenerators.com/product/mig/powermts-211si-tig-package