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220v for garage panel questions

Jcauli82

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I want to be able to plug my 220v air compressor in in my garage but im no electrician and have a vague idea of the work involved with adding 220v circuits, plug ins, etc. And i just checked the garage sub panel today and it looks like there's plenty of room. ...it's a square d qo load center and I'll just take a picture of the specs and what the inside of the box looks like and hopefully somebody can give me some insight into where to start......
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Jcauli82

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looks like all you have feeding that panels is 120v@20 amp
and some will be quick to point out it's 240v not 220!
Thank you for the clarification..... I kinda figured that was the case otherwise I probably wouldn't be asking about it.....so what would need to be added to it to install a 240v outlet for an air compressor? It's just a speedaire 3z419j with a 2 hp motor nothing too crazy.

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The Cobbler

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what is that line going to now?
is this an attached garage? are the lights on that circuit?
you can rewire the circuit to 240 at the main panel, but you will lose the 120 to whatever that is feeding now
 
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Jcauli82

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Its an attached garage and yes the lights and outlets are goin to the breaker on the left the other breaker looks like it's not running to anything but like I said I'm no expert .....so I would have to figure out what to do with the lights if I wired this for 240?

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The Cobbler

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I agree the breaker on the rh side is not connected to anything by the looks of it.
this has been added on it aappears, look at re running the feed cable to the box with 3 wire instead of 2 wire, that way you can get 120&240. you could run a 30 amp 120/240 circuit to that pretty inexpensively .
some of the pros will chime in soon Im sure, they can give you more info
 
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Jcauli82

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I agree the breaker on the rh side is not connected to anything by the looks of it.
this has been added on it aappears, look at re running the feed cable to the box with 3 wire instead of 2 wire, that way you can get 120&240. you could run a 30 amp 120/240 circuit to that pretty inexpensively .
some of the pros will chime in soon Im sure, they can give you more info
Thank you for the info regardless every little bit of knowledge helps

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Sokoloff

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If this garage is detached, you need to separate the grounds from the neutrals in this panel by current code. All grounds (bare) together and all neutrals (white) together, but not ground and neutral tied to each other.
 

AntonLargiader

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As mentioned, you either need to repurpose the existing feeder as 240V from its source (losing the ability to provide 120V to that circuit) or replace it with a 4-wire feeder. Use 10/3 for that feeder to supply 30A circuits or support multiple 120V ones, although it isn't needed for that particular compressor. What's on that other circuit, and do you foresee other circuits being added in the future?
 

dcg9381

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He's right. Three options:
1) With existing wire and a change you can get 20A of 240V out of that if you change the breaker and rewire upstream, but you will not have 120V anywhere off of that box. Basically you're a wire short of being able to do both.
2) Rewire that incoming wiring to a 10 ga thickness and use 4 wires (white, black, red, copper, called "10/3") - that will get you 30A and give you the ability to do both 120V or 240. This is sorta the minimum for a sub-panel.
 

wyliesdiesels

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I want to be able to plug my 220v air compressor in in my garage but im no electrician and have a vague idea of the work involved with adding 220v circuits, plug ins, etc. And i just checked the garage sub panel today and it looks like there's plenty of room. ...it's a square d qo load center and I'll just take a picture of the specs and what the inside of the box looks like and hopefully somebody can give me some insight into where to start......

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Well its obvious that whoever installed this didnt know what they were doing. There is one dangerous thing in this panel that needs to be fixed ASAP. More on that latter. :shocking:

the cable coming in the upper right of the box is the feeder.

It is 2-wire with ground so you can only get 120v or 240v out of it but not 120/240v

currently its setup for 120v with a black jumper connecting the busses together. Thus the double pole breaker wont work for anything 240v.

If you want 120/240v you will need to run a new 4-wire feeder to this panel, remove the black jumper, remove the green bonding screw on the neutral bar, and add a ground bar. Then the ground wires on the neutral bar need to be moved over to the new ground bar.

Ok the dangerous part: :shocking: you have a bonded neutral bar. If the neutral fails on either end or develops a hi-resistant connection(I've seen this happen many times usualy due to not being torqued properly), then neutral current can flow on alternate pathways such as plumbing, grounds or even humans standing barefoot on the concrete floor touching the panel, where current should NOT be flowing.

This should be fixed right away regardless if you bring a new feeder to the panel. This means you will need a ground bar....

If this garage is detached, you need to separate the grounds from the neutrals in this panel by current code. All grounds (bare) together and all neutrals (white) together, but not ground and neutral tied to each other.

Its not that cut and dry. If it was detached, done prior to 2008 and there is no other metallic pathways, then it can remain bonded.

But the problem here is that its ATTACHED and thus should not have a bonded neutral under any circumstances...
 
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u2slow

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I agree with Wylie.

That compressor lists as a dual voltage machine. Is it presently configured for 120V or 240V?

I have that compressor's big brother (1NNF7, 3hp; 240V only) and it uses a 240V/20A circuit, so it stands to reason you can go smaller.

What does the other breaker supply? It may be better to install a 20A receptacle in place of the panel until a proper 'garage feed' is installed.
 

sberry

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I will agree about knowing distance. If it was modest would go 8 or even 6. 6 cable is easy to install. Could add up to 5 hp comp, could add welding outlet and 120v for local tool circuit. Let's it have local disconnect for comp.
 
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Jcauli82

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Distance is relatively short I would guess in the 6 foot range or so and that is kind of crazy but not surprising to here about the box being all jacked up.....in the basement there are 3 wires for a plug in sticking out of the wall and they are still live I found out by figuring I should wiggle them and see what happens (good idea, I know).... Anyways I will address the issue with the box as soon as I can and go from there ......quick question about relocating everything that needs to move: I can just kill the power to the garage and it should be safe to work on right ? Like I said I'm no electrician so i wanna make sure I'm doing the right thing here.

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Jcauli82

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I agree with Wylie.

That compressor lists as a dual voltage machine. Is it presently configured for 120V or 240V?

I have that compressor's big brother (1NNF7, 3hp; 240V only) and it uses a 240V/20A circuit, so it stands to reason you can go smaller.

What does the other breaker supply? It may be better to install a 20A receptacle in place of the panel until a proper 'garage feed' is installed.
It is not wired for anything at the moment I was gonna do 120 but you suggested in another thread to go with 240 since it would always flip the breaker

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Jcauli82

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Ok so if I posted a pic of that box from the first post would some body be willing enough to show me how I should re do it to be in code and run 240 and 110?

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sberry

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First, get a piece of 6/3, get it long enough, run it between the boxes. Buy a 50 or 60A breaker that fits the main panel and a ground bar that fits the sub. Buy 2 cable clamps for the new wire.
 

u2slow

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Ok so if I posted a pic of that box from the first post would some body be willing enough to show me how I should re do it to be in code and run 240 and 110?

Once you have the #6/3 going into that sub panel, and added a ground-lug strip to the enclosure, remove the green bonding screw. Connect the bare wire to the ground-lug strip. Move the remaining bare wires to this ground-lug strip also.

Connect the red wire to the big lug on the left. Connect the black to the lower big lug on the right. Connect the white wire to big lug on the upper right.

Make sense?
 

exranger06

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To get 240V and 120V in that box, you'll need to replace the wire. There's no way around that. I'd do what sberry said and run 6/3 cable to it (that will have 4 wires total: black, red, white, and a bare ground) and install a 50 amp breaker in the main panel to feed this subpanel. You'll also need to install a ground bar in this subpanel.
 

SGKent

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hire an electrician. Any of these folks here who live near you can do the work. I don't recall you posting the manufacturer's specs on the amperage needed but I will look again.

Grainger lists it as 115/240 and 15 amp/7.5 amp. I'd look at the tag on the motor.
 
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William Payne

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Doing your own electrical work is fine when you know what you are doing. If you don't which it sounds like work with an electrician. If there are issues there there are probably issues elsewhere.
 
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Jcauli82

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Doing your own electrical work is fine when you know what you are doing. If you don't which it sounds like work with an electrician. If there are issues there there are probably issues elsewhere.
I respect that and I respect electricity if I start to feel like im in over my head I'll consult the pros .....I had no hand in the wiring of the sub panel in the picture but I would like to get it fixed and expand my knowledge base at the same time as well as finally get to run this compressor that's been gathering dust for awhile. Any and all advice is appreciated, people, thanks!

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Jcauli82

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Once you have the #6/3 going into that sub panel, and added a ground-lug strip to the enclosure, remove the green bonding screw. Connect the bare wire to the ground-lug strip. Move the remaining bare wires to this ground-lug strip also.

Connect the red wire to the big lug on the left. Connect the black to the lower big lug on the right. Connect the white wire to big lug on the upper right.

Make sense?
Absolutely! Thank you!

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Jcauli82

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I am subscribing to this. How far away is your main panel? And you are going to need to put a different breaker in your main panel to feed this panel.

I have watched this guy on youtube some, and I think he explains it pretty well. Here is a link to installing a subpanel that you might want to watch...
https://www.askmediy.com/subpanel-installation/
Thank you! Sorry for the delay in responding......but I'll watch it and keep updating when I work on it.

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sberry

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First, get a piece of 6/3, get it long enough, run it between the boxes. Buy a 50 or 60A breaker that fits the main panel and a ground bar that fits the sub. Buy 2 cable clamps for the new wire.
Reason I say this,,,, first,,,, is to get the materials and avoid confusion, then go from there, 1 step at a time.
 

wes73

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Surprised no one has yet asked to see a pic of his main panel. With the sub panel setup this way, I cringe to think what all could be going on in the main panel. Jcauli82 hire an electrician. It sounds like a short run back to the main and should not take much time, unless there is no direct path for the wire. Have the electrician look over your existing main panel to ensure all is good. Get this all to a safe configuration. Ask question when they are there. Best of luck to you. Respecting the Panel is more important than not being scared.
 
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Jcauli82

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Surprised no one has yet asked to see a pic of his main panel. With the sub panel setup this way, I cringe to think what all could be going on in the main panel. Jcauli82 hire an electrician. It sounds like a short run back to the main and should not take much time, unless there is no direct path for the wire. Have the electrician look over your existing main panel to ensure all is good. Get this all to a safe configuration. Ask question when they are there. Best of luck to you. Respecting the Panel is more important than not being scared.
I'll take a pic of the main panel this afternoon I honestly haven't even gotten around to looking at it yet .....it's in the basement though and the monthly safety test checklist on it was last annotated in 1984 so yeah might be interesting....

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Jcauli82

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Here is the main panel
6a0fd5c86b4ceae7f6d35640f65c9193.jpg
372d54300f1d0f76500f831d2a1ee3bd.jpg
1605b9b0fe215b8aab9b0d455c5368a3.jpg


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Norcal

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Here is the main panel
6a0fd5c86b4ceae7f6d35640f65c9193.jpg
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To add more breakers either a subpanel, or the panel has to be replaced, twin breakers are not a option. The photo of the neutral bar is showing neutrals and grounding conductors shared under one screw, this is not allowed by code, only one neutral per set screw is allowed, it cannot share the spot with another conductor, the fact that there is plenty of spots to separate them leads me to think whoever did it was ether lazy, did not know any better, or just did not care.
 

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Jcauli82

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To add more breakers either a subpanel, or the panel has to be replaced, twin breakers are not a option. The photo of the neutral bar is showing neutrals and grounding conductors shared under one screw, this is not allowed by code, only one neutral per set screw is allowed, it cannot share the spot with another conductor, the fact that there is plenty of spots to separate them leads me to think whoever did it was ether lazy, did not know any better, or just did not care.
Well is there any possibility somebody could explain how to make this right? I moved in to this house just a few months ago and it was already set up like that but I would like to make it legit and I would love to be able to put a sub panel in my garage as stated previously (or just make the existing panel in the garage be able to run my air compressor )

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sberry

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I had a call a while back about a circuit, 2 wires under a screw was the culprit. Since this is a relatively finished panel might consider removing some extra wire, maybe adding a bar to relieve some congestion. Lots of circuits in a place can be unused, might combine a couple to get 2 spaces.
 
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Jcauli82

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I had a call a while back about a circuit, 2 wires under a screw was the culprit. Since this is a relatively finished panel might consider removing some extra wire, maybe adding a bar to relieve some congestion. Lots of circuits in a place can be unused, might combine a couple to get 2 spaces.
Yeah that's a start thank you I'll check it out tonight

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exranger06

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Fixing the neutral bar problem is easy: Simply loosen the screw, remove one conductor, and relocate it to a different screw. But make sure the breaker for that circuit is turned off before you do anything! Make sure all the screws are tightened down tight.

I would assume the subpanel is fed from a single pole breaker. That will need to replaced with a double pole breaker, but there's no more room in the main panel for one. Probably the easiest thing to do would be to see if there are any circuits that are lightly loaded and possibly combine them.
For example: Let's say there's a 15 A breaker that feeds a bedroom, and another 15 A breaker that feeds another bedroom. Instead of having separate 15A circuits for each bedroom, you could combine them and put both bedrooms on one circuit. The electrical stuff you typically use in a bedroom usually doesn't use much electricity, so you probably wouldn't have a problem putting 2 on one circuit. By doing that, you can eliminate one of the 15A breakers and free up a space in the panel.

Keep in mind that whichever circuits you want to combine must be the same amperage (don't combine a 15A circuit with a 20A circuit), and there may be code restrictions on which circuits you can combine. For example, some receptacles are required by code to be on their own dedicated circuit, so you wouldn't be able to combine that circuit with another circuit. So basically, IF you decide to go this route, check here with us first and tell us which circuits you're thinking of combining, and we'll tell you if it's allowable or not.

Another option is to mount another subpanel right next to the main panel and relocate some circuits to it, thus freeing up some spaces in the main panel.
 
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Jcauli82

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Fixing the neutral bar problem is easy: Simply loosen the screw, remove one conductor, and relocate it to a different screw. But make sure the breaker for that circuit is turned off before you do anything! Make sure all the screws are tightened down tight.

I would assume the subpanel is fed from a single pole breaker. That will need to replaced with a double pole breaker, but there's no more room in the main panel for one. Probably the easiest thing to do would be to see if there are any circuits that are lightly loaded and possibly combine them.
For example: Let's say there's a 15 A breaker that feeds a bedroom, and another 15 A breaker that feeds another bedroom. Instead of having separate 15A circuits for each bedroom, you could combine them and put both bedrooms on one circuit. The electrical stuff you typically use in a bedroom usually doesn't use much electricity, so you probably wouldn't have a problem putting 2 on one circuit. By doing that, you can eliminate one of the 15A breakers and free up a space in the panel.

Keep in mind that whichever circuits you want to combine must be the same amperage (don't combine a 15A circuit with a 20A circuit), and there may be code restrictions on which circuits you can combine. For example, some receptacles are required by code to be on their own dedicated circuit, so you wouldn't be able to combine that circuit with another circuit. So basically, IF you decide to go this route, check here with us first and tell us which circuits you're thinking of combining, and we'll tell you if it's allowable or not.

Another option is to mount another subpanel right next to the main panel and relocate some circuits to it, thus freeing up some spaces in the main panel.
Hey that's awesome thank you for the suggestion I'm definitely gonna do that..... Rltw

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