220v outlets Electrician quote - reasonable?

[wolfe]

Hi all,

I want to add a couple of 220v outlets to my garage for a bigger air compressor and a welder.

I'm on a 220v main breaker, and my breaker panel which supplies the house and garage is currently full.

My A/C repair guy used to be an electrician, and mentioned I could replace some of my lower amperage breakers with 'tandem' units to free up some space, then install a couple of 220v units for the two new outlets/circuits.

I've since got a quote from a different electrician who is advising we replace the entire panel with a larger (more breaker spaces) unit. This'll run close to $1,800 which is a lot more than I was hoping.

Does this seem reasonable, or is it overkill? Am I 'allowed' to do this myself or must you be a licensed electrician to work on the main panel? The actual main breaker is outside in a different box.

Thanks for any guidance here.

 

[countrybumpkin]

Depends on what you want long term. Moving to larger panel is never a bad idea if you have space and potential use for the future. I find that doing anything "Just this one time" never ends up like I hope it does.

You can definitely free up some space with tandem breakers to add additional circuits as long as you aren't exceeding your capacity. It would also be worth having your electrician look into what l, if any, circuits could be combined.

You will want to take a look at your loads to make sure tandems are feasible for your current setup.



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[theoldwizard1]

My A/C repair guy used to be an electrician, and mentioned I could replace some of my lower amperage breakers with 'tandem' units to free up some space, then install a couple of 220v units for the two new outlets/circuits.

Very common ! I needed four 120V circuit to do the remodeling of my daughters kitchen. Four tandem did the job. Just make sure they are the correct breaker for that make and model breaker box (older Square D QO use a different tandem than current tandems, and it is not in production, but NOS is available).

I've since got a quote from a different electrician who is advising we replace the entire panel with a larger (more breaker spaces) unit. This'll run close to $1,800 which is a lot more than I was hoping.

It does give you "room to grow", but not required by code.

Does this seem reasonable, or is it overkill? Am I 'allowed' to do this myself ...

IMHO, a new box is overkill. If you are comfortable with basic home electric, this is definitely a DIY.

 

[sberry]

How big, what condition is the existing panel in? What major electric appliances are in the house? You may be able to add another panel, even run one to the garage?

 

[dcg9381]

Does this seem reasonable, or is it overkill? Am I 'allowed' to do this myself or must you be a licensed electrician to work on the main panel? The actual main breaker is outside in a different box.

Thanks for any guidance here.

You need 4 slots to get 2 2-pole breakers in. That means you'll need to collapse 4 breakers into 1/2 size.. This is likely less expensive than a whole panel replacement and is OK.

Can you do this yourself? That depends (technically) on your local authority. Some cities require a permit, a plan, a licensed electrician, and an inspection after changes like these.

In other places, like mine - we have a NEC code target, but anyone is allowed to do the work as long as the work complies with NEC. As there is no inspection, you don't get in a bind unless you have a problem or until resale - when there typically is an inspection.

Many of us learn to work on electrical. It's not rocket science, but there is a learning curve. Best suggestion would be to have your HVAC-electrician teach you to do it - a little bit of both.

Pictures of the work on this forum often get multiple (very good) opinions on what was done right / wrong.

 

[dave*99]

What is the brand and model your existing panel? There are certain brands of panels that are outright dangerous. They are well known to the experts on this forum. If you have one in that category, you will definitely want to change the panel. If that is the case the remainder of this discussion is moot.

 

[u2slow]

IMO, have your AC guy do it, and be there to learn a few things in the process.

You may not even need 2 separate 240V circuits unless you plan to run both machines at the same time. Depends on the size of your welder and compressor.

$1800 is reasonable if there's a panel change and permit involved.

 

[ycgoat]

Agreed w/ all above and would add that you should verify the amp rating of your panel, residential panels range from 100 amp to 200 amp. If you have a 100 or 125 amp panel or it 25 years or older I would upgrade the panel.


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[Terry D]

If the panel is made for tandem breakers, you are fine. The common tandem breakers will only fit in a panel designed for them. Panels are only rated for a certian number of circuits, exceeding that number is a violation and can come back to haunt you later. I understand they make the "cheater " style tandem that will fit in anything, but your not supposed to go over what the panel is rated for. I would replace service or add a sub panel

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[TRWham]

Agreed w/ all above and would add that you should verify the amp rating of your panel, residential panels range from 100 amp to 200 amp. If you have a 100 or 125 amp panel or it 25 years or older I would upgrade the panel.


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In my opinion, age alone is insufficient reason to replace a load center. If it's damaged, known to have issues or you cannot get parts for it, maybe, but not just because it's older than the mid '90s.

 

[nadogail]

If the panel is made for tandem breakers, you are fine. The common tandem breaks will only fit in a panel designed for them. Panels are only rated for a certian number of circuits, exceeding that number is a violation and can come back to haunt you later. I understand they make the "cheater " style tandem that will fit in anything, but your not supposed to go over what the panel is rated for. I would replace service or add a sub panel

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What he said, are you looking for a fix or just wanting to "get by" until some later date?

 

[sberry]

I mention this earlier, just did one, the main, the conductors in excellent shape and the customer was well pleased I didn't start with we need to replace it all, simply added a sub for spaces as the main wouldn't take tandems and it was getting to be too many anyway. It was also quite congested, extra wire didn't help but it was busy.
I did find a cheater and a counterfeit in it. Also, if this isn't the main what is in the main?

 

[ycgoat]

In my opinion, age alone is insufficient reason to replace a load center. If it's damaged, known to have issues or you cannot get parts for it, maybe, but not just because it's older than the mid '90s.

Its a balancing act a residential panel over 25 years old is past its life expectancy, and I have responded to several service call where unseen failures occurred in old panels and meters. Adding loads to a 25+ year old panel does not give me confidence it will not burn some time time in the near future, since I am financially and criminally liable for my work and the work of those I supervise; I chose not to take that risk. That being said, I would not refuse to do the work as long as the owner was aware of the risk and was making an informed decision.


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[u2slow]

Its a balancing act a residential panel over 25 years old is past its life expectancy, and I have responded to several service call where unseen failures occurred in old panels and meters.

One can always go down the rabbit-hole about renewing anything that's 'X' old.

The realistic limiter is continuance of house insurance.

 

[ycgoat]

One can always go down the rabbit-hole about renewing anything that's 'X' old.

The realistic limiter is continuance of house insurance.

I look at it as risk mitigation. In this case they are modifying and increasing the load which adds to the risk, but if they make slim breakers for his panel it is most likely less than 25 yrs old


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[aka Larry]

If the situation (construction) is like it is here in NC, you'll be lucky to get anyone to actually do it, no matter the cost.

My buddy recently attempted to get quotes from four electricians to run a sub panel to his new detached garage. That process started in December when I helped him install the overhead door. It's now four months later and he still hasn't found someone interested in the job. Did I mention the master panel is only 15 feet away?

Same thing happened to another buddy in early 2018. Same situation, nobody wanted to do it. Fed up, he and I tackled it ourselves, got it inspected, it passed, and the project moved forward.

If you can possibly DIY, DO IT.

 

[theoldwizard1]

You need 4 slots to get 2 2-pole breakers in.

Some manufacturers to make a tandem 240V breaker. Only requires 2 slots.

Some manufacturers limit the number and/or position of tandem breakers.

 

[theoldwizard1]

If there is a convenient place near the main breaker panel, you could add a small sub-panel (no main required). You would still have to remove to circuits from the main some that you can run a 240V breaker to the sub. Add a J-box where you can splice some addition NM-B for those two circuit and then run them to the new box.

Still easier, faster, cheaper to but install tandems.

 

[nadogail]

Sometimes I wonder what became of the "Manly Idea" that a homeowner should be able to do things for them selves.

I apologize, in advance, to any women who may be offended by the term "Manly" because I have been fortunate to have been acquainted with some "Strong Independent Women" like those who post on our forum.

 

[ycgoat]

Sometimes I wonder what became of the "Manly Idea" that a homeowner should be able to do things for them selves.

I apologize, in advance, to any women who may be offended by the term "Manly" because I have been fortunate to have been acquainted with some "Strong Independent Women" like those who post on our forum.

LOL, once as a school system maintenance supervisor I raised cain with superintendent about renovating the shop class building and converting it to Art and computer class rooms. My arguments had no impact and we made the conversion.


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[wyliesdiesels]

Hi all,

I want to add a couple of 220v outlets to my garage for a bigger air compressor and a welder.

I'm on a 220v main breaker, and my breaker panel which supplies the house and garage is currently full.

My A/C repair guy used to be an electrician, and mentioned I could replace some of my lower amperage breakers with 'tandem' units to free up some space, then install a couple of 220v units for the two new outlets/circuits.

I've since got a quote from a different electrician who is advising we replace the entire panel with a larger (more breaker spaces) unit. This'll run close to $1,800 which is a lot more than I was hoping.

Does this seem reasonable, or is it overkill? Am I 'allowed' to do this myself or must you be a licensed electrician to work on the main panel? The actual main breaker is outside in a different box.

Thanks for any guidance here.

You need to back up. If the compressor HP rating on the motor is over 3HP, it will need to be hardwired.

What is the brand and model on the breaker panel?

Some manufacturers do make a tandem 240V breaker. Only requires 2 slots.

Some manufacturers limit the number and/or position of tandem breakers.

All 2 pole 240v breakers take 2 spaces (not called slots) with the exception of 2 brands- Zinsco/GTE/Sylvania and a specific model line of GE breakers- the THQP line. Zinsco is garbage and GE THQP breakers are half size...

Saying that some manufacturers make tandem 240v breakers only muddies the waters here because those breakers are only allowed in specific panels. If the OP doesnt have either one of those panels, then its a no go

 

[Norcal]

You need to back up. If the compressor HP rating on the motor is over 3HP, it will need to be hardwired.

What is the brand and model on the breaker panel?



All 2 pole 240v breakers take 2 spaces (not called slots) with the exception of 2 brands- Zinsco/GTE/Sylvania and a specific model line of GE breakers- the THQP line. Zinsco is garbage and GE THQP breakers are half size...

Saying that some manufacturers make tandem 240v breakers only muddies the waters here because those breakers are only allowed in specific panels. If the OP doesnt have either one of those panels, then its a no go

Since you mentioned a obsolete brand (Zinsco/Sylvania) you forgot a few more obsolete ones, Challenger, & Crouse-Hinds, plus FPE Stab-Lok, all of them could supply 240V w/ twin breakers, every other make requires a quad breaker to get 240V if the particular panel accepts them.

 

[wolfestone]

Thank you all SO much. Did not expect this kind of response!

I think I'm going to look into DIY'ing this with a new panel and see how the cost of parts vs. parts & labor looks. If anyone could recommend a quality panel brand, I'd greatly appreciate it please.

Answers to questions below:

How big, what condition is the existing panel in? What major electric appliances are in the house? You may be able to add another panel, even run one to the garage?

It's a 200A panel, house was built in 2005. It's full but looks in good shape physically. Other major appliances are: 2x Air conditioning units, stove, fridge/freezer combo, washer, dryer, dishwasher, microwave.

What is the brand and model your existing panel? There are certain brands of panels that are outright dangerous. They are well known to the experts on this forum. If you have one in that category, you will definitely want to change the panel. If that is the case the remainder of this discussion is moot.

I don't see a model number, but the brand appears to be 'SQUARED'. Any recommendations on whether this is garbage, or what brands to look for/avoid would be much appreciated.

What he said, are you looking for a fix or just wanting to "get by" until some later date?

Definitely a proper fix, planning to stay here a long time.

You need to back up. If the compressor HP rating on the motor is over 3HP, it will need to be hardwired.

The compressor is 3.7HP single phase 230v. what's meant by hardwired please? no outlet, just straight to panel? The instructions call for an 10GA cable under 6 feet length, but do show a plug. (just sharing what it says, I'm all for doing this the right way).

Thanks again all, I greatly appreciate the help.

 

[Norcal]

As long as your panel is not a SQ D Trillant panel it’s fine Trilliant was a short lived product that is impossible to find breakers for and if they are found will be horribly expensive, their QO, and HOM lines are EZ to find, just match whatever you already have.

Any modern panel still in production other then Eaton BR is also fine when you see a BR panel it’s a sure sign of crappy electrical.