23 x 32 Best heating solution?

[kennyr7]

Guys,

I've been reading page after page here to try to come up with the best heating solution for my shop. I really could use some expert opinions.

I have a 23' x 32' x 10' detached garage. It was originally built as a race car shop. The 2nd owner removed the garage doors and converted it into a home gym. When the conversion was done, 8 2000 watt baseboards were put in. They are insanely expensive when its cold, not to mention that you can't really put cabinets & workbenches in front of them.

Now its time to go back to a space for my cars. Not sure how much insulation there is in the walls, but there is R19 paper-backed fiberglass in the attic. I will blow some more in later. I do have a window a/c unit. I'm in SW Connecticut. It normally doesn't get below the teens, maybe 5F at night (except for the last 2 weeks). I plan on keeping the shop at 50F or so, and crank it up to 65F for the weekends, which is the only time that I'm going to be able to spend out there.

There's no natural gas in my part of town. Energy costs here are completely ridiculous-electricity is .225/kw and propane is $3.79/gallon. If propane is the answer, I might as well get a tank big enough to power an emergency genny. Burying a 1000 gallon propane tank (can't have above-ground here) would be $6500, which also seems crazy.

I have a subsiding floor, which means that the slab will have to be dug up & replaced. This fact is making me think seriously about getting radiant, but I'm concerned about the slow heat rise times with radiant & whether or not I should be running radiant from a electric hot water heater, which seems to be the only logical way to heat the water. I think that my other choice would be installing propane, so I can hang a separated combustion Hot Dawg 60 or 75.

I'd be grateful for everyone's ideas..

Regards,

Ken

 

[Climatecreator]

Hello from CT lol

I'd definitely go radiant. It's the type of heat you leave on to maintain, not turn it on as needed. You'll love it. You could run the radiant from a high efficiency propane or oil boiler. Forget electric it's too expensive here.

Even if you weren't sure what you're doing with that floor coming out at least put the tubing in for the future....and insulate under the floor and edges.

There are lots of options. None of them will be cheap AND work.

CC

 

[Streetbu]

If your not heating it to the same temp all winter, don't get radiant. Too much energy wasted going up and down in temp every weekend. Forced hot air. I use a fuel oil mobile home furnace and have a small 15 gallon gear oil keg I made into a fuel tank. 30 minutes and you can be at temp. Simple, any HVAC tech can fix it if needed. Cheap. I got mine for $200 and my buddy installed it for a case of beer. BTW, I run mine on diesel or kerosene, which ever is cheaper.

 

[finn]

I would go propane, but you don’t need a 1000 gallon tank.

You’re letting the “want” to have a huge standby fuel supply for a generator you’ll probably never use complicate your “need”, a fuel supply to heat the building.

No reason a 250 gallon tank isn’t sufficient to heat a small building like that.

Call around to several suppliers to verify the price. I paid $1.79 last month, with a rented tank, and my uncle is on a $1.49 prepay plan for propane

 

[Climatecreator]

I run mine on diesel or kerosene, which ever is cheaper.

Not in CT. #2 fuel oil is cheapest. Followed by #1 kerosene then diesel is way more because CT taxes are ridiculous.....

And I agree if you're only looking to run the heat once in a while forget radiant.

If they are collector cars or you're in the shop daily, yes to radiant. With the company I worked for a while back I did the radiant for Ted Christopher's shop in Plainville they loved it, all they did was work on the cars between races though.

So I guess you'll have to decide how you want to use the space to decide what heat is best.

Maybe a tube heater if you would just stand in one place kind of thing. So many options.

 

[Jackfre]

Call Leahy Propane and talk to them about a Rinnai Direct vent. Good outfit and they have done hundreds of them. Buying a 1000 is the right way to go about this imho. That way, you can control the buy and run a generator when necessary.

 

[tec508]

In North East CT myself. I paid $1.79/gal a couple weeks ago. My tank. Thinking about adding a 250 for my shop. My buried 500 is on the other side of the driveway so connecting it to the shop will be a nightmare.

 

[T_R]

I think you have too many baseboards. 16k watts is massive overkill. Maybe cut it down to 5 or so of the 2000 watt units and save money on your electric bill as well as free up some wall space

 

[Bert_]

I think you have too many baseboards. 16k watts is massive overkill. Maybe cut it down to 5 or so of the 2000 watt units and save money on your electric bill as well as free up some wall space

Won't save anything, the remaining heaters will just have to run longer to maintain the same temp...

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

If you are doing the floor and wanting propane I'd go radiant floor to maintain the 50 degrees then a low cost overhead with force air to bump it up when you want it warmer.
A 250 should be plenty if you contract, a 500 you could probably summer fill.

 

[Streetbu]

Not in CT. #2 fuel oil is cheapest. Followed by #1 kerosene then diesel is way more because CT taxes are ridiculous.....

Fuel oil is MUCH cheaper here too, but they won't deliver that small of an amount, let alone my tank is not an "approved" fuel tank so even when they are filling my house, they won't touch the gear oil keg fuel tank for the garage furnace...

 

[Climatecreator]

Fuel oil is MUCH cheaper here too, but they won't deliver that small of an amount, let alone my tank is not an "approved" fuel tank so even when they are filling my house, they won't touch the gear oil keg fuel tank for the garage furnace...

Yeah back in the day when I rode on the oil trucks we used to do stuff like that all the time. Customer service isn't like what it once was before lawsuits.....

 

[terabitdan]

Those are expensive rates...*@#$

Per million BTU those rates translate into $65.94 for baseboard electric, $42.11 for propane using a 78% Furnace, $35.70 if it’s 92% and $22.96 for a 9.8 HSPF mini-split.*@#$

I used the average residential price of $3.01 for propane in Connecticut from the feds, if it’s really $3.79 then propane is $53.20 and $45.10 respectively.*@#$

Bottom line a high efficiency heat pump will be your lowest cost to operate at today’s prices.*@#$

With your high cost to install propane I don’t know how you could ever get to payback.*@#$

Frankly, I’d focus on insulation first. 3” of Spray foam everywhere, then R38+ of blown in in the attic and at least R-10, with R-20 better under the slab when you replace it.*@#$

Or, with the $6500 you can get both a mini split with low ambient heating (-22 deg) and added insulation in the attic.*@#$

If you go that way, you will need a mini split that can use an separate thermostat to maintain 50 deg, most have a minimum set point of 62 deg.

For comparison, the baseboards are capable of producing roughly 55,000 BTU per hour.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Earp69]

Not in CT. #2 fuel oil is cheapest. Followed by #1 kerosene then diesel is way more because CT taxes are ridiculous.....

And I agree if you're only looking to run the heat once in a while forget radiant.

If they are collector cars or you're in the shop daily, yes to radiant. With the company I worked for a while back I did the radiant for Ted Christopher's shop in Plainville they loved it, all they did was work on the cars between races though.

So I guess you'll have to decide how you want to use the space to decide what heat is best.

Maybe a tube heater if you would just stand in one place kind of thing. So many options.

you can buy offroad diesel here,no road tax

 

[yeldogt]

Insulation is always important ... but, it's extremely important when energy is costly. Don't skip insulating that slab when you replace. I'm in the same boat as you (energy cost) and I think getting a modulating furnace like Jackfre suggests is the way to go.

I have a sealed combustion Empire unit and it's a great way to heat a shop your size -- heat comes out the bottom and blows along the cold floor -- no exposed flame -- quiet. Easy, easy install -- vent out the back (through the wall). Mine was connected to twin 100 gallon tanks .. but I'm doing a 1k underground now that I need a generator and the house attached. I would get the modulating unit today -- not available when I purchased.

Fuel oil is a pain -- as is the equipment.

I also have a 240v electric heater that I can turn on with the propane if i arrive to a cold shop and need a boost for 1/2 hour. I like having the electric as an extra and not oversize the propane heater. My 40k empire can heat my whole 1700sf shop to 70 in the coldest weather if I let it.

I'm not sure I could pour a new slab and not put in some radiant pex tubing -- if you ever do want to use it more and maintain a temp -- it's the best. For a few hundred dollars in tubing you may regret not doing it.

I had a studio with radiant and panel radiators -- best of both worlds. Not the cheapest way to go.

 

[Climatecreator]

you can buy offroad diesel here,no road tax

Where?

 

[Jackfre]

I’ve been involved in the oil heating business for many years. Oil is great heat...if you have the load against it. Let’s take this 600 sq ft area CC is asking about. His actual heat load, at design condition, assuming decent construction and insulation is 30kbtu, max. Oil has 140,000 btu/gallon and currently is priced well. Now, look at the burner technology. The minimum firing rate used on any of the Beckett, Carlin or Reilly burners is a .5 gph or 70,000 btuh, and I can tell you that .5 nozzles are regularly changed out to .65’s (84,000 btuh) due to the likely or at least more prevalent clogging issues with the .5’s. You are grossly oversized at the .5. As well, you need an interior 275 gal tank. In 600 sq ft, where do you want it? You can put a 275 outside, but you have to burn Kero. Have you looked at the size of a cast iron boiler? Where do you want that? Buying off road or whatever type of diesel puts you in a hassle situation getting the fuel. Do you want a new hobby?
I was on the NFPA 31 Committee (Oil Installation) for 15 years and have installed and sold mountains of oil equipment. The problem with oil is that there is no technology. The market isn’t big enough to draw the investment. The quality and consistency of the fuel limits you. The service requirements are greater, and for your small space it isn’t a good buy.

 

[yeldogt]

I’ve been involved in the oil heating business for many years. Oil is great heat...if you have the load against it. Let’s take this 600 sq ft area CC is asking about. His actual heat load, at design condition, assuming decent construction and insulation is 30kbtu, max. Oil has 140,000 btu/gallon and currently is priced well. Now, look at the burner technology. The minimum firing rate used on any of the Beckett, Carlin or Reilly burners is a .5 gph or 70,000 btuh, and I can tell you that .5 nozzles are regularly changed out to .65’s (84,000 btuh) due to the likely or at least more prevalent clogging issues with the .5’s. You are grossly oversized at the .5. As well, you need an interior 275 gal tank. In 600 sq ft, where do you want it? You can put a 275 outside, but you have to burn Kero. Have you looked at the size of a cast iron boiler? Where do you want that? Buying off road or whatever type of diesel puts you in a hassle situation getting the fuel. Do you want a new hobby?
I was on the NFPA 31 Committee (Oil Installation) for 15 years and have installed and sold mountains of oil equipment. The problem with oil is that there is no technology. The market isn’t big enough to draw the investment. The quality and consistency of the fuel limits you. The service requirements are greater, and for your small space it isn’t a good buy.

Well said ... Having spent most of my life as a homeowner in the Mid-Atlantic (PA/NY/NJ) -- oil was king. I'm a serial old house remodeler -- mostly larger properties .... and they always had oil when I purchased. Oil heat is great -- the tanks and equipment .. not so much. My last property had two oil furnaces and an oil water heater -- the old girls could heat that weekend place in a couple hours and the HW was ready in 15 from cold ... but I had no choice but to get the maintenance contracts as the equipment was older -- $800 a year before I burned a gallon. The burner technology has been about the same for 30 years -- I did buy one Buderus boiler that was easy to clean and did not require me to pay for the contract -- the furnaces are too messy.

 

[Climatecreator]

I’ve been involved in the oil heating business for many years. Oil is great heat...if you have the load against it. Let’s take this 600 sq ft area CC is asking about. His actual heat load, at design condition, assuming decent construction and insulation is 30kbtu, max. Oil has 140,000 btu/gallon and currently is priced well. Now, look at the burner technology. The minimum firing rate used on any of the Beckett, Carlin or Reilly burners is a .5 gph or 70,000 btuh, and I can tell you that .5 nozzles are regularly changed out to .65’s (84,000 btuh) due to the likely or at least more prevalent clogging issues with the .5’s. You are grossly oversized at the .5. As well, you need an interior 275 gal tank. In 600 sq ft, where do you want it? You can put a 275 outside, but you have to burn Kero. Have you looked at the size of a cast iron boiler? Where do you want that? Buying off road or whatever type of diesel puts you in a hassle situation getting the fuel. Do you want a new hobby?
I was on the NFPA 31 Committee (Oil Installation) for 15 years and have installed and sold mountains of oil equipment. The problem with oil is that there is no technology. The market isn’t big enough to draw the investment. The quality and consistency of the fuel limits you. The service requirements are greater, and for your small space it isn’t a good buy.

If you mean me, as CC I wasn't asking about anything.

Every fuel has is place. Oil is not always a problem. I haven't had to clean mine in years, it's about filtration and set up, really.

I've done service calls on propane AND natural gas that required a new furnace the damage was so bad. NOTHING is maintenance free. Except MAYBE electric.

 

[Brand X]

Lived in a house with one of these..(toyo) Bought a couple of Rinnai wall vented gas heaters over the years too.. All top quality. My 26X32 insulated shop??? A used Austroflamm pellet stove from Craigslist.. $500.00 1992 model, and works as well as any new one.. Reliable stuff.. Zero issue heating my shop when it's 20 below out.. Coldest it's been since I moved here..I also have some small propane stoves in the 18 to 30k range if I just want to heat for a bit.. i guess my Western weed burner in a fabbed up drill pipe would qualify too. about 550 k for heating to about 100 degrees in about 10 minutes time...
Pellet stove is my favorite overall.


http://toyoheat.com/l530-vented-heater/

https://www.rinnai.us/gas-home-heating/direct-vent-furnaces

Whatever you do buy quality..Used or new..

 

[BruceMc]

Lived in a house with one of these..(toyo)

A strong second on the Toyostove, especially since you are open to heating with oil. They are very popular in this part of the world because they are relatively cheap, reliable, highly efficient, and about as simple of an install as it gets. I have a Laser 73 in my 28x32x12 --

https://www.toyotomiusa.com/factoryOutletStore/L-73-Toyotomi-Laser-Vented-Heater

-- and have no problem keeping the interior at +65º even when it's -40º outside. Because of the extreme temps, we typical run #1.

eta:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=725358&stc=1&d=1515890454

 

[Climatecreator]

Pellet stoves are nice too, just not automatic. Plenty of options that's for sure. I Like that little toyo, it's a neat heater for sure.