230V @ 20A, 30A and 50A...

[ovrrdrive]

So. A few months ago I bought my first 230V tool, a compressor and wired up an outlet for it. I used the plug type the guy at HD recommended rolleyes as I told him eventually I would buy a welder too and wanted to run both from the same outlet. I installed a 20A breaker for it based on the amp draw stated in the manual.

Fast forward a few months and I bought my welder, a Millermatic 180 Autoset which of course had a different plug and amp requirement so I installed another 230V outlet beside it with a 30A breaker. All is good, all has worked perfectly.

Now I'm buying a plasma cutter that is asking for a 50A outlet. I don't have it yet so I don't know which plug it has but I'm pretty sure it won't match either one that I already have. Which brings me to my question. If I match the plug to the welder plug (of course I need the compressor running for the plasma cutter) is it risky to run the welder from a 50A circuit when it runs fins from the 30A it's on now so I can save mounting yet another outlet or should I just bite the bullet and install the third?

I'm lining them up right beside the breaker box and I'm pretty sure I have a few more slots in there. But it's weird having so many there. What are the thoughts of GJ on this?

I'll attach a pic of what I have now...

 

[theoldwizard1]

Now I'm buying a plasma cutter that is asking for a 50A outlet.

I think the outlet you have there for your welder is a 50A receptacle (6-50R) which is pretty much standard for all welders. It is likely what the plasma cutter wants.

Do either of the actually require a 50A circuit and breaker ? Probably not !

 

[Norcal]

Looks like a dryer pigtail, it's use is not proper since they are a dual voltage non-grounding item, I am not a fan of repurposing plugs/ receptacles for purposes not intended, as NEMA has huge charts of locking & straight blade devices to fit every need.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So. A few months ago I bought my first 230V tool, a compressor and wired up an outlet for it. I used the plug type the guy at HD recommended rolleyes as I told him eventually I would buy a welder too and wanted to run both from the same outlet. I installed a 20A breaker for it based on the amp draw stated in the manual.

Fast forward a few months and I bought my welder, a Millermatic 180 Autoset which of course had a different plug and amp requirement so I installed another 230V outlet beside it with a 30A breaker. All is good, all has worked perfectly.

Now I'm buying a plasma cutter that is asking for a 50A outlet. I don't have it yet so I don't know which plug it has but I'm pretty sure it won't match either one that I already have. Which brings me to my question. If I match the plug to the welder plug (of course I need the compressor running for the plasma cutter) is it risky to run the welder from a 50A circuit when it runs fins from the 30A it's on now so I can save mounting yet another outlet or should I just bite the bullet and install the third...

U contradicted yourself. U said it needs a 50a outlet but dont know which plug it has?

If it needs a 50a outlet then it told u what plug it has. It would be a 6-50r.

Now what is the HP rating of your compressor?

And what outlets do u currently have(what is the NEMA #)?

What size wire did u use on each?

 

[Charles (in GA)]

And how many wires do you have packed in that flex conduit?

 

[wyliesdiesels]

And how many wires do you have packed in that flex conduit?

Im guessing 6, 4 of which are CCC.

 

[ovrrdrive]

I think the outlet you have there for your welder is a 50A receptacle (6-50R) which is pretty much standard for all welders. It is likely what the plasma cutter wants.

Do either of the actually require a 50A circuit and breaker ? Probably not !

Probably not... I have no idea what the real life draw is on the cutter but it will be the biggest. For what it's worth I ordered the Eastwood versa Cut60. All I've been able to find so far is they want you to hook it up to a 50A circuit.

Looks like a dryer pigtail, it's use is not proper since they are a dual voltage non-grounding item, I am not a fan of repurposing plugs/ receptacles for purposes not intended, as NEMA has huge charts of locking & straight blade devices to fit every need.

I have kind of figured out some of that after the fact. At the time I thought I was going to run one outlet to take care of everything but I've since figure out I need more.

U contradicted yourself. U said it needs a 50a outlet but dont know which plug it has?

If it needs a 50a outlet then it told u what plug it has. It would be a 6-50r.

Now what is the HP rating of your compressor?

And what outlets do u currently have(what is the NEMA #)?

What size wire did u use on each?

I ran 10 gauge wire to both outlets. The run is about 12".

Here's a link to the compressor.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Husky-60-Gal-Stationary-Electric-Air-Compressor-C602H/205389936

I do think I saw somewhere that it was a 6-50r but I wouldn't swear by it.

The main question I had was should I up the welder breaker to 50A and run both from that or should I run a new 50A circuit to another outlet for the cutter?

The welder has some protection built in for heat but I'm not sure it a bigger circuit would let it harm itself or not.

 

[ovrrdrive]

Im guessing 6, 4 of which are CCC.

Yes 6. It's full.

 

[ovrrdrive]

And i also just checked the owners manual of the cutter and saw it is indeed a 6-50r plug which appears to be what I have there. I assume that if miller shipped the welder with that plug that it would be ok to run it on 50A.

Looks like I might have answered my own question...

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Normally u cant use #10 with a 50a breaker. Welders have special wiring requirements so that could fly for a welder circuit.

Regardless, that plasma cutter has a 60a input with a 60% duty cycle.

Youre gonna need minimum #8 THHN but I would probably use #6.

Im curious what kind of plug it has on it. U might need a 14-60r for the outlet...

And no, u cant use your existing 6-50r because it only has #10 wire...the wire is too small...

EDIT: we were typing at the same time. Put in a 6-50r with #6 THHN. U could try a 50a breaker and see if it trips

 

[ovrrdrive]

So if I upgrade the wire to #6 and the breaker to a 50A you think it would be ok to run the welder or the cutter off the same circuit?

That should be easy enough to do... It's only a foot.

 

[sberry]

The welder and the cutter can be used from a 10 wire with a 50A, the welder is designed to run from 50, you guys can sort the rest of it out.
I agree with Norcal, I am not a fan of re using old recepts, there is a bit of saving grace in the fact that its monuted in a metal box if its grounded but its not listed for this equipment application. It will be grounded thru the 6-50 but really needs a jumper wire to bond the box.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

At first I thought the OP meant he wanted to run all of the listed recepts from the one original breaker...

I need some coffee...

Tommy

 

[theoldwizard1]

Normally u cant use #10 with a 50a breaker. Welders have special wiring requirements so that could fly for a welder circuit.

Regardless, that plasma cutter has a 60a input with a 60% duty cycle.

Youre gonna need minimum #8 THHN but I would probably use #6.

Im curious what kind of plug it has on it. U might need a 14-60r for the outlet...

And no, u cant use your existing 6-50r because it only has #10 wire...the wire is too small...

EDIT: we were typing at the same time. Put in a 6-50r with #6 THHN. U could try a 50a breaker and see if it trips

The welder and the cutter can be used from a 10 wire with a 50A, the welder is designed to run from 50, you guys can sort the rest of it out.

I agree with Wylie on this one, because the plasma cutter has a higher duty cycle (60%) than the welder ! Upgrade the wire from the load center to the welder outlet to #6 and install a 50A breaker. I'm not sure if that will fit in the existing conduit.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

So if I upgrade the wire to #6 and the breaker to a 50A you think it would be ok to run the welder or the cutter off the same circuit?

That should be easy enough to do... It's only a foot.

U can actually use #8 and be to code. #8 is good to 50a...Yes u could run either on that outlet after upgrading the wire...

The welder and the cutter can be used from a 10 wire with a 50A, the welder is designed to run from 50, you guys can sort the rest of it out.
I agree with Norcal, I am not a fan of re using old recepts, there is a bit of saving grace in the fact that its monuted in a metal box if its grounded but its not listed for this equipment application. It will be grounded thru the 6-50 but really needs a jumper wire to bond the box.

no u cant. U need to pay attention to input current and duty cycle. The welder would be fine but the plasma cutter needs 47a rated wire...

 

[sberry]

Sorry, missed the cutter was heavier. Most at home users are not. I believe my Spec 2050 is lighter.

 

[sberry]

Where did we come up that the in needed to be 60? The machine comes factory with a 50. This is an Eastwood plasma cutter, the auto body outfit?

 

[sberry]

Whoops, maybe not, bet money that comes with a 12 cord. It says its for 220V but not a word about input current and that pos doesn't use 60 at 60. How many genius masters it take to figure this all out.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Where did we come up that the in needed to be 60? The machine comes factory with a 50. This is an Eastwood plasma cutter, the auto body outfit?

The manual that i read and a forum said it had 60a input.

I will see if i can find the manual...

If the input current is only 50a, then it needs 39a rated wire, so #8 THHN would work- .78 multipler for 60% duty cycle times 50a = 39a...

Whoops, maybe not, bet money that comes with a 12 cord. It says its for 220V but not a word about input current and that pos doesn't use 60 at 60. How many genius masters it take to figure this all out.

Have u ever noticed what the wire temp rating is on machines with smaller gauge wire such as #12 but have more than 20a input current?

The wire temp rating is higher than 90* c often times its 105* c which has a higher ampacity rating.

Ovens often have small gauge wire with higher temp ratings...

 

[sberry]

Yes I am aware of this and know how ovens are wired. For welders the wire depending on method could need to be a size larger than the cord but a AC225 has an in of 47.5 or 48 and has a 12 and allows single circuit in pipe of 12 on a 50, for a cable or cord a size larger (this isn't to educate wylie) but for the rest of us simpletons.
I have never seen a welder that uses 60A come with a factory end.

 

[sberry]

The only real reason a ready made welder cord is an 8 is for 250 class feeders. This would include the IM 230 I believe as it has a screaming output and duty but the rest of the Hobart lineup comes with the same 12 if it is a 240 machine.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Yes I am aware of this, the wire depending on method could need to be a size larger than the cord but a AC225 has an in of 47.5 or 48 and has a 12 and allows single circuit in pipe of 12 on a 50, for a cable or cord a size larger (this isn't to educate wylie) but for the rest of us simpletons.

No that welder has a 50a input. And did u notice the duty cycle? Only 20%....the multiplier being .45, so #12 on the cord is ok.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/Products/K1170/e230.pdf

In case u havent noticed, the duty cycle is the deciding factor!

That is the difference between the plasma and the welder...

http://m.ecmweb.com/qampa/code-qa-45

 

[sberry]

The old 210 compacts came with 12 cord, the new dual V come with 14 but have some kind of protection I guess built in to the 50A adapter.

 

[sberry]

No that welder has a 50a input. And did u notice the duty cycle? Only 20%....the multiplier being .45, so #12 on the cord is ok.

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/Products/K1170/e230.pdf

In case u havent noticed, the duty cycle is the deciding factor!

http://m.ecmweb.com/qampa/code-qa-45

I am aware of this and you can play try to pin me like a lawyer all you want but I been to the school and read the book. Just a little of that should be obvious and afforded a little courtesy instead of acting like forum police like a couple other assshats who cruise the internet seeing who they can corner about a fukkin romex connector.
All correct when you feel like it or it doesn't matter, about like the neutral discussion. Wann be correct but use laymens terms when you feel like it, like this *** compressor guy telling who to do homework and such, blow it out your ***.

 

[sberry]

I been there long enough to take a wag that some pos Eastwood machine for 600$ fuggin dollars doesn't run 60A in and I do understand duty cycle and its not cooking this thru that shoebox.
I remember my first machine, I believe it came 60A, no cord even.
Just out of curiosity I will have to look it up as I have the manual.
I have a 2050now and cant recall if it came with a whip or not but believe it did due to the fact that it is auto voltage and can be wired either single or 3 and a user supplied plug.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I am aware of this and you can play try to pin me like a lawyer all you want but I been to the school and read the book. Just a little of that should be obvious and afforded a little courtesy instead of acting like forum police like a couple other assshats who cruise the internet seeing who they can corner about a fukkin romex connector.
All correct when you feel like it or it doesn't matter, about like the neutral discussion. Wann be correct but use laymens terms when you feel like it, like this *** compressor guy telling who to do homework and such, blow it out your ***.

Youre taking it the wrong way. Im not trying to pin u down....we are just dicsucssing things right? Sorry i came off that way.

I can tell that you know what youre doing for the most part...

If we are gonna quote specs dont u think we should get it right? When i read and post the wrong specs i try to come back and correct it.

Do we want to do things right or do we not care? I think we would want to do things the right way, afterall thats why people come on this forum. To learn how to do things correctly!

 

[sberry]

As the compressor guy said well, its the intent to some extent. Most of these calculations don't require fine science and a guy can come back and do the math. Because its a code minimum doesn't mean its inadequate but doesn't make it good practice either, this part is agreed on.
The main reason I even remember some of the details is I ended up in a seminar with an old bud and there were some real fine points about code language brought up. It seems at the same deal was an afternoon on lightening.

 

[sberry]

I am not familiar with the many plasma models, I can see it falling in to the 250 mig class and having larger wire probably in upper end models. A 250 feeder pulls close to 50 @60% and comes with 8 cord.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Im not familiar with all the models either thats why i look to the manuals...

 

[sberry]

I would have to look on some especially the ones that do not come plug and cord. The 200 class mig was designed in a super niche, any more current thru it and all the stuff would need to be upsized. 23.8 I believe is the magic number at rated output.
In some sense,,,, 2 of these could run on a single buss rated at 50A provided the wire to each was 12 or better. I cant however figure out what would be the incentive to run it on a 14 wire. A 6-50 is listed for 12 at the smallest and as I recall some brands at 10? Connecting 14 would have termination issues and really introduce a couple of things that wouldn't be an issue with larger wire.

 

[sberry]

A beaut is the 212, has a 10 wire and lists 30 and 40 breakers and comes with a 50A plug. They got some new engineers with some of the new models and they been foollin with the manuals and I am not all convinced they rightly understand the code. I have heard and seen some stuff that don't quite seem right.

 

[ovrrdrive]

You guys are a trip. Thanks for all of the information and insight.

I will have to run a second conduit or at least upsize what's there. Thinking back there are actually 8 wires in the existing conduit because there's also a ground wire that I ran to the back of both boxes.

The dryer cord and recep are actually both new not reused or repurposed. The ****** at HD told me to use that cord and recep for the compressor because the welder would undoubtedly come with that same plug. My bad for thinking he knew more than I did.

The Eastwood plasma probably is a chicom ************* but they do sell it with a 3 year warranty and have a pretty good reputation honoring it. Not to mention that Eastwood is a pretty decent company that is based in America and doesn't appear to be going anywhere anytime soon. My need for a plasma is non-existent. Literally, I don't even know what the hell I'm going to use it for. I've always thought they were cool and I figure if I buy it I will find a use for it. With that in mind it wouldn't make sense to spend any more than I have to on it. Hence the Versa Cut 60.

Thanks for the help gents.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I cant find the manual i read earlier.

If u use #8 THHN and a 50a, u will be fine.

I would definitely upsize the conduit and switch it to FMC/greenfield.

And u can omit one EGC/ground wire and use it for both outlets. Im assuming the existing EGC is #10 which is good upto just under 100a...

 

[theoldwizard1]

A beaut is the 212, has a 10 wire and lists 30 and 40 breakers and comes with a 50A plug.

One of my personal pet peeves about welders. They all seem to come with a 50A plug (6-50P), buy most of them do not draw anywhere near 50A, especially when you apply the duty cycle.

So if you take your plasma cutter or TIG over to a buddies house you really have no idea how much current that 6-50R can supply.

 

[sberry]

I got no problem with the Eastwood cutter. Welding equipment has taken some turn in the respect that some of the cheaper has got better with new innovation. There is a limit how low they can go due simply to raw material cost. By many accounts the wire feeds they came up with work rather well. They are big enough they can shop.
Now I do have a question though, just out of curiosity and I could be wrong or this is simply an error is it correct a 10 wire is good for ground on 100A? For some reason I was under the impression it would need to be 8 ?
BTW I didn't look but only a glance for the manual but didn't see it served up, any real electric specs either other than it runs on 220 in the ad.

 

[kv501]

I am aware of this and you can play try to pin me like a lawyer all you want but I been to the school and read the book. Just a little of that should be obvious and afforded a little courtesy instead of acting like forum police like a couple other assshats who cruise the internet seeing who they can corner about a fukkin romex connector.
All correct when you feel like it or it doesn't matter, about like the neutral discussion. Wann be correct but use laymens terms when you feel like it, like this *** compressor guy telling who to do homework and such, blow it out your ***.

I mean this as respectfully as possible, but did you have a stroke or head injury or something? Your posts were always insightful and practical over the years, but in the past while they've gone totally wacko. Like incoherent, rambling wacko. I mean we could at least make sense of it before. Booze, maybe?

 

[sberry]

I quizzed the guy they got keepin an eye on the site for Miller. I see EE here ask some rudimentary question about a code and seems he implied he has a degree and never seen the book. A guy at Miller give a recommendation that was safe but didn't really seem to understand the design parameters and how they related to code.
The reason I looked at the 212 was it was from this class. They list a 10/40 and its got 50 end.
For giggles the old 210 is listed the same way, they must have carried it up to the 212, I forgot about it but seems I remember quizzing someone about this and everyone kind of mumbled. I am not sure how they list a max breaker in that case with it having a 50A end.
In the manual for the 200 class the max is listed as it pertains to the min wire size, when I asked the engineer if it was legal on a 50 they pipe right up and say yes but they mumble about the 212 class.

 

[sberry]

I mean this as respectfully as possible, but did you have a stroke or head injury or something? Your posts were always insightful and practical over the years, but in the past while they've gone totally wacko. Like incoherent, rambling wacko. I mean we could at least make sense of it before. Booze, maybe?

Yes I do ramble and can type about 50 words a minute. We got some figure they are the internet electric police and go from forum to forum playing code detective, they don't really try to teach much but mostly try to prove they are smarter than the next guy for the most part.
They figure they invented it and everyone else just fell out of a tree. We all mess up on threads, most of the time we know a guy knows better and its error.

 

[sberry]

So if you take your plasma cutter or TIG over to a buddies house you really have no idea how much current that 6-50R can supply.

No you don't know whats hooked to the outlet. If it has a 25 or 30 it has to have a minimum of a 14 wire and be able to support it for 30% and if it is a 50A breaker it has to support 48A at 20%. If your machine is a 211 wire feed it can go on any circuit legal to be wired to this minimum, you could use it on either, the latter one could hook an AC225 buzzer to but not the 30A with a wire that size.
Clear as mud?

 

[sberry]

Here is a reverse view, if your machine has a 12 cord you can run it on any legal 50A circuit.