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240V from a 120V generator

theoldwizard1

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There are a lot of different very moderately priced 2000W-3000W inverter generators on the market. Most have the capability of running 2 in parallel. Of course, none of these create 240VAC required to run a well pump.

As they say, "A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing", so I need practical experience. If you paralleled 2 inverter generators (4000W theoretical starting power) why can't you take a 5kVA 240/120 transformer and wire it backwards to create 240V ?

Yes, this would be 240VAC with NO NEUTRAL so you could NOT feed a house, but it could directly feed a 240VAC appliance, correct ?
 
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mike93lx

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Interested in experiences here. I have the same need as I would love to get rid of my loud generator and replace with an inverter
 

slow

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Subscribing, you could even get one with a center tap and feed a house, but unless you buy the transformer used, they are not cheap. What 240 volt load are you trying to run? a well pump or AC might be too large of an inrush current for this setup.
 

mike93lx

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Subscribing, you could even get one with a center tap and feed a house, but unless you buy the transformer used, they are not cheap. What 240 volt load are you trying to run? a well pump or AC might be too large of an inrush current for this setup.

For me, the only 240v equipment I care about is my well, which is only 1/2hp. Not sure what it's in rush current is, but I can't imagine it's too high
 

RPH

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Sure it can be done, it’s done all over the place but transformers are expensive and the bigger they are the more cost is involved. If you need x amps to power something then I suggest getting the generator sized correctly to begin with. No matter what you do with a transformer it’s still limited by what the output of the generator is. No free lunches in power transmission. Transformer will cost a small amount of power it’s self, feel the heat off one, that’s power lost.
 

slow

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The problem is the inverter generators you need to go to a 7000+ watt unit on the Honda lineup ($4500) to get a 240 volt output, so I understand why this is desirable, especially when you just need a little power for your well.
 

mike93lx

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The problem is the inverter generators you need to go to a 7000+ watt unit on the Honda lineup ($4500) to get a 240 volt output, so I understand why this is desirable, especially when you just need a little power for your well.

Briggs has a 240v inverter for about $1k
 

themiller

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Well, I learned something in the last 5 minutes...

Apparently there is something called an "autotransformer" that can take 120 single phase and turn it into 240

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer

and https://www.altestore.com/store/inv...uto-transformer-for-storedge-inverter-p40448/

Here's a guy that uses one to power a 3HP well...


I imaging if you only have a 1/2pump you could get away with two EU2000i's.

From experience - not all 1/2hp pumps are the same. I could barely start some of my 1/2hp sump pumps on a single EU2000i, others I could run one and start another. YMMV...
 

Bert_

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You wouldn't need a 5 kva trans. Usually size it about 1 kva per hp. My

Auto transformer isn't the best for this application, they are best when you want to change the voltage 20% or less. You want an transformer with a separate primary and secondary.
 

wanderer

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Why not rewire the well pump for 120v? I've never seen such a small pump that isn't dual voltage and even with a long run voltage drop isn't likely to be too big a concern.
 

rlitman

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Well, I learned something in the last 5 minutes...

Apparently there is something called an "autotransformer" that can take 120 single phase and turn it into 240...

Actually, any transformer can do that. What makes an autotransformer special is the efficiency gained by its unique wiring (that also makes it ideally suited for this sort of use).

And on that note, here is an example of an autotransformer used by utility companies to provide temporary 240V service when one leg is unusable (exactly what TOW is looking for, though WAY oversized for his purposes):

http://www.bridgeportmagnetics.com/contents/en-us/d39_PowerBack.html

The interior pictures of the toroid clearly show how it is an autotransformer. A conventional transformer (with or without the center tap) would also be at least twice the size for the same performance.
 
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1233user

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Would it be possible to take 2 generators that had the ability to be paralleled together and make some type of device that instead of making them 100% in sync with each other they could be exactly opposite each other? Isn't 240 volts just 2 120 volt hot leads that are synced exactly opposite? If so, 2 separate 120 volt generators produce what is needed, the outputs just need to be timed opposite each other.
 
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theoldwizard1

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Would it be possible to take 2 generators that had the ability to be paralleled together and make some type of device that instead of making them 100% in sync with each other they could be exactly opposite each other? Isn't 240 volts just 2 120 volt hot leads that are synced exactly opposite? If so, 2 separate 120 volt generators produce what is needed, the outputs just need to be timed opposite each other.

THEORETICALLY possible. Not practical unless you a deep into electronics.

Wylie is correct about the in-rush current. Even on a 1/2-3/4 HP well pump it is pretty high. In THEORY, the transformer should help with the in-rush current (A transformer is a big inductor. Inductors "resist" changes in current flow by adding energy back as the field collapses.)

Even when the pump is off, the transformer will consume a small amount of power. Not sure how much. (Measure the resistance of the side you are connecting to 120VAC.)

For all you DIYers, get a big toroid and some wire and start winding !
 
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matt_i

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Yes, this would be 240VAC with NO NEUTRAL so you could NOT feed a house, but it could directly feed a 240VAC appliance, correct ?

The 120vac primary on the step-up transformer can be put in parallel with any other 120vac load. Limited by generator output and inrush/motor starting issues.

But no, its not as easy as hooking up to the bus bars of a conventional circuit panel and flipping on breakers.
 
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MBfreak

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An autotransformer will work perfectly well in this application.
If you are bent on // two generators you have to make sure that they are synchronized and have identical droop curves to share the load equally.

Ola
 

Bretny

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By the time you rig all this up to make half assed possibly dangerous 240v you could rewire or replace the 240v well pump, drop another 120v pump and or buy a better generator that will make 240v.

You could also store some water, put some cash aside for more fuel for that 8hrs a year you need 240v. All depends on person, property, location and expectations.

In the end it may be cheaper to have a larger non inverter 240v generator and a smaller inverter 120v generator thats really good on fuel. After all you can pump alot of water in a short ammount of time if you have a place to keep it.
 

Bert_

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By the time you rig all this up to make half assed possibly dangerous 240v you could rewire or replace the 240v well pump, drop another 120v pump

I wouldn't even consider this an option. I've pulled some fairly shallow wells, deepest being about 80'. Pulling a pump is not that easy of a project and most wells are much deeper than that.

or buy a better generator that will make 240v.

You could also store some water, put some cash aside for more fuel for that 8hrs a year you need 240v. All depends on person, property, location and expectations.

In the end it may be cheaper to have a larger non inverter 240v generator and a smaller inverter 120v generator thats really good on fuel. After all you can pump alot of water in a short ammount of time if you have a place to keep it.

A 240V generator is a reasonable option, but probably not cheaper. A 1KVA or so transformer could be found on ebay for <$100. Used is fine, transformers don't go bad for no reason.
 

Backwodsurvivor

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I'm not an electrician but I'd go for the 120v pump idea. That small of a pump replacing the whole thing would probably be cheaper. Quick search finds pumps around 500-800 bucks. Definitely less than buying another generator and transformers.
 

wyliesdiesels

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I'm not an electrician but I'd go for the 120v pump idea. That small of a pump replacing the whole thing would probably be cheaper. Quick search finds pumps around 500-800 bucks. Definitely less than buying another generator and transformers.

If the drop pipe is metal, it would not be cheaper as a rig is needed to pull the pump out...
 

mike93lx

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I'm not an electrician but I'd go for the 120v pump idea. That small of a pump replacing the whole thing would probably be cheaper. Quick search finds pumps around 500-800 bucks. Definitely less than buying another generator and transformers.

between labor and parts, my well pump was $1925 to replace. it's 125' down in a 300+ ft hole and is not possible to pull by hand.

hardly cheaper than a generator
 

Sevenhills1952

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Northern Tool or WalMart site you can get a 12kW for $773. Easier, safer, more practical than rigging something. It will run well, electric for refrigerator, furnace.cb08cd3846c295f418848a6a98fdbd18.jpg

Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk
 

mike93lx

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Thats couple hours labor with a rig. definitely not cheaper than a generator...

yessir. i helped pull it. even with the winch rig, it took at least 3 hours and two of us to manage the piping and wire. i think it was like a grand for the pump and the rest was parts and labor.
 

Bretny

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between labor and parts, my well pump was $1925 to replace. it's 125' down in a 300+ ft hole and is not possible to pull by hand.

hardly cheaper than a generator
You can pull 125ft by hand. Also if your going to quote labor no electrician is going to install a 120v generator with a transformer so labor is mute in your senerio.

Get the right generator for the job. One your wife/gf/SO can start and run if you ever leave her home alone.
 

Mallen

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There are a lot of different very moderately priced 2000W-3000W inverter generators on the market. Most have the capability of running 2 in parallel. Of course, none of these create 240VAC required to run a well pump.

As they say, "A little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing", so I need practical experience. If you paralleled 2 inverter generators (4000W theoretical starting power) why can't you take a 5kVA 240/120 transformer and wire it backwards to create 240V ?

Yes, this would be 240VAC with NO NEUTRAL so you could NOT feed a house, but it could directly feed a 240VAC appliance, correct ?
It won't work because the phase won't be synchronized between the two generators. When one is going positive the other could be going negative. You won't notice if only 120v loads are connected across each side because the zero point of the voltage is arbitrary. But when you connect a 220v load across both of them it's going to cause a serious problem. The two generators will start up at random phases and in fact ,won't have output frequncies of exactly 60hz. They will be a little off and not even uniformly so. Like one generator might be 61hz and another 58, and it just depends on the random variations between generators. So the phase difference will wander. In the example above, the voltage will increase to 220 and decrease to zero at about 3hz. Total train wreck.
 

BreeStephany

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Yes, through the use of a properly sized 120V generator and a transformer, you can create 240V to run a well pump, provided the controls for the pump are not 120V, but it is also important to remember that the transformer would also need circuit protection between the well pump and the transformer, protecting the secondary side of the circuit. There would be no neutral on the secondary (240V) side of the transformer, so you could run the pump motor, but couldn't power any 120V loads on the secondary side of the circuit.

As others have mentioned, its also important to remember that you can't take 2x 120V generators to run a 240V load because the generators will not be perfectly out of phase of one another to provide clean, synched 240V power to the load. A transformer and paralleled generators would work in theory in this application, but only if the generators have the ability to sync their phasing through the inverters to provide a clean 120V voltage to the transformer to be able to provide a clean 240V output from the transformer.

If the inverter generators have the ability to output a synchronous 120V while in parallel through the use of the primary generator's inverter, this would work and would be safe providing there is OCP on the secondary side of the transformer circuit.

With all that said, in most applications where people need 120/240V backup or off-grid supply, a properly sized 120/240V generator is the best bet. If it is being used to provide backup power, it is also important to remember that the circuit needs to have a transfer switch or breaker-interlock transfer circuit, properly sized to load the generator would be providing and the demand of the circuits it would be providing.

When sizing transformers, remember that transformers do have losses and that it is important to size the transformer over the size of the demand of the well pump, effluent pump, etc. to account for in-rush current and voltage drop over the length of the circuit.

I ran into an issue where a customer had a 240V effluent pump fed off of a 208V service and a buck-boost transformer was used to provide the 240V to the pump motor. Because of the in-rush current of the pump starting exceeded the rating of the buck-boost transformer, the voltage would drop significantly enough during pump startup, causing the amperage to spike enough that the start capacitors for the pump would experience an amperage exceeding their rating, which led to repeated failure of the capacitors. It ended up being one of those instances where the correct equipment (a 208V 3ph pump motor) for the application would have been a much better solution than using additional equipment (in this case, a buck-boost transformer) to make the spec'ed / installed equipment work.

I think your best bet, in this case, would be to get a properly sized 120/240V generator to run the circuits you need, rather than using paralleled smaller 120V generators and a transformer to run a 240V load, especially in the case of a well pump, as if the pump motor gets damaged, its not just the cost of a new pump that you have to take into consideration, but also the cost of having a well tech come out or the labor involved to pull the well head, disconnect the water, pull the well pump up, replace the pump, set it back in, reassemble, not to mention the downtime of not having water during that time.

Just my two cents.
 
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rlitman

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It won't work because the phase won't be synchronized between the two generators. When one is going positive the other could be going negative. You won't notice if only 120v loads are connected across each side because the zero point of the voltage is arbitrary. But when you connect a 220v load across both of them it's going to cause a serious problem. The two generators will start up at random phases and in fact ,won't have output frequncies of exactly 60hz. They will be a little off and not even uniformly so. Like one generator might be 61hz and another 58, and it just depends on the random variations between generators. So the phase difference will wander. In the example above, the voltage will increase to 220 and decrease to zero at about 3hz. Total train wreck.
No. You've got the circuit all wrong.

>If you paralleled 2 inverter generators (4000W theoretical starting power) why can't you take a 5kVA 240/120 transformer and wire it backwards to create 240V ?

In this scenario, you're paralleling on the 120V side. That's fine. Most inverter generators handle paralleling innately, and will auto-sync their phase so there won't be any frequency variation, and if your generators have parallel operation posts to be wired like this, it's quite safe to parallel them. However, it is important to only start the second generator AFTER the paralleling wires are connected. If you were to start both engines and then connect them in parallel, bad things can happen.

Actually, people will even parallel synchronous generators, but it's a risky operation I won't delve into here.

Now, can you step 120V up to 240V with a transformer? Certainly! You could wire a step-down isolation transformer backwards, but you'd be better off with a buck/boost auto-transformer that's half the size. I leave it to you to look up why.
 

wyliesdiesels

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It won't work because the phase won't be synchronized between the two generators. When one is going positive the other could be going negative. You won't notice if only 120v loads are connected across each side because the zero point of the voltage is arbitrary. But when you connect a 220v load across both of them it's going to cause a serious problem. The two generators will start up at random phases and in fact ,won't have output frequncies of exactly 60hz. They will be a little off and not even uniformly so. Like one generator might be 61hz and another 58, and it just depends on the random variations between generators. So the phase difference will wander. In the example above, the voltage will increase to 220 and decrease to zero at about 3hz. Total train wreck.
totally incorrect

One could parallel the generators (that are designed to do so), then feed their 120v output to a transformer that is either 120v primary 240v secondary or reverse feed a 240v primary/120v secondary transformer.

Either way its possible...
 
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