Searched, but can't find the info I am looking for. Interested in building a two story "bank garage" with parking on the 2nd level.. Would like to have installed in the middle of one bay a car stacker, that when lowered would store the seldom used car. The other side would be used for general repair, with a possible lift installed. Under that side would be used for storage. Can't find any information on how to do the floor. For the foundation walls would most likely go with a poured cement. Any ideas or links?
2nd level parking
- Thread starter Etz
- Start date
jkwilson
Well-known member
You need an engineer.
rsanter
Well-known member
I don't understand
Why not just install a 4 post lift where you want to store the seldom used car and then store another car or stuff under the lift
I have seen precede commercial lofts or platforms for use in factories that can hold tons of weight. There are car dealers that use them nest to the freeway to display cars higher up so they can be seen better.
Just buy one of the above options and install it
Bob
Why not just install a 4 post lift where you want to store the seldom used car and then store another car or stuff under the lift
I have seen precede commercial lofts or platforms for use in factories that can hold tons of weight. There are car dealers that use them nest to the freeway to display cars higher up so they can be seen better.
Just buy one of the above options and install it
Bob
nolimits76
Well-known member
I think there are better and cheaper ways to solve your desired criteria that you should explore.
Regardless, I immediately thought of the following. Keep in mind, this was on a million dollar home in Tahoe. Most don't have those kind of resources, but it is pretty cool.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-57413348-48/a-garage-batman-would-envy/
Regardless, I immediately thought of the following. Keep in mind, this was on a million dollar home in Tahoe. Most don't have those kind of resources, but it is pretty cool.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-57413348-48/a-garage-batman-would-envy/
toolin' around
Well-known member
A bit more information would be helpful.
The picture I have in my mind from what you describe so far, is that you have a sloping lot (sloping down, away from your drive), and you want to build the garage at entry level, with another level below it, with a car elevator that allows a car to be parked and lowered to the lower level, as well as access storage.
Am I on the right track, or have I totally missed your vision???
The picture I have in my mind from what you describe so far, is that you have a sloping lot (sloping down, away from your drive), and you want to build the garage at entry level, with another level below it, with a car elevator that allows a car to be parked and lowered to the lower level, as well as access storage.
Am I on the right track, or have I totally missed your vision???
joe_padavano
Well-known member
I am an engineer and I looked at this very long and hard for my own bank barn (we own an old farm). Traditional bank barns with wood floors support tractors and equipment that weigh more than most cars, but below they typically have columns on eight foot centers. I wanted a large clear span below so I could have a car shop on the bottom and car parking above.
There are many ways to do this. All are extremely expensive. The easiest is to buy the pre-cast concrete deck segments used in commercial parking garages. Not only are these expensive, but they require a large crane to put them in place. The second easiest is a more traditional poured-in-place concrete floor, but this requires specific forms (and obviously engineering) to properly shape the integral beams in the concrete to support the load. Third is to use structural steel with a poured-in-place concrete deck.
I finally figured out that it was going to be MUCH cheaper (though less cool) to build multiple single story buildings than to try to build the double deck design.
Exactly..
I am landlocked, thus without enough acreage for multiple buildings. I could get by very easily with beams and supports every 8 feet, except where the 4post lift would reside.
bczygan
Well-known member
Not clear what you want to do.
offroadsteve
Well-known member
I am an engineer as well, I agree with what most have said, which is "you need an engineer"
The multi-level part should be fairly straight forward. We had essentially what you are looking for in our old house where the actual garage was supported by poured in place concrete walls on two sides and structrual steel and 3 x 4" diam columns, on the other two. The area below was then used as the shop and we had a seperate entry on the lower level. This was not substantially more expensive than pouring 4 concrete walls, filling the void and pouring a slab on top, and we got 500 extra square feet of space.
The "elevator" will be the hard and expensive part in my estimation. My vision for the least expensive option would be if the space is deep enough to have the building essentially 2 cars deep. Then, build the upper level with the front part paved and rated for vehicles, and the back have conventionally framed (wood), and build a space in the wood-framed floor for the 4 post lift. The remainder of the wood framed floor could be machine shop / man cave / whatever, then the entire lower level would be concrete floor on grade and rated for vehicles.
This option is entierly reasonable and could be built with readily avaliable materials, but you absoloutly need a professionally engineer to do the drawings and load calculations. Not a place to cut corners!
The multi-level part should be fairly straight forward. We had essentially what you are looking for in our old house where the actual garage was supported by poured in place concrete walls on two sides and structrual steel and 3 x 4" diam columns, on the other two. The area below was then used as the shop and we had a seperate entry on the lower level. This was not substantially more expensive than pouring 4 concrete walls, filling the void and pouring a slab on top, and we got 500 extra square feet of space.
The "elevator" will be the hard and expensive part in my estimation. My vision for the least expensive option would be if the space is deep enough to have the building essentially 2 cars deep. Then, build the upper level with the front part paved and rated for vehicles, and the back have conventionally framed (wood), and build a space in the wood-framed floor for the 4 post lift. The remainder of the wood framed floor could be machine shop / man cave / whatever, then the entire lower level would be concrete floor on grade and rated for vehicles.
This option is entierly reasonable and could be built with readily avaliable materials, but you absoloutly need a professionally engineer to do the drawings and load calculations. Not a place to cut corners!
cinco
Well-known member
I think Etz may actually be Batman...
I've been playing with the idea of building a 2-storey garage - fictitiously, 3-up and 6-down (construction may be expensive, but thinking's cheap). But in my head it makes sense to build a ramp down to the lower level rather than going full-Sheik with an elevator. Of course, that's a problem with limited land. Whatever you do, don't tell anyone other than your butler.
I've been playing with the idea of building a 2-storey garage - fictitiously, 3-up and 6-down (construction may be expensive, but thinking's cheap). But in my head it makes sense to build a ramp down to the lower level rather than going full-Sheik with an elevator. Of course, that's a problem with limited land. Whatever you do, don't tell anyone other than your butler.
volleyball
Well-known member
I would skip the wood and do it all in pretensioned concrete. Got the crane for 1, won't be much more to do several. Make the cave larger. If you can afford this, you can afford another hobby car. Or make the lower level your shop. I assume a hill so you have a sub level exit
NHBandit
Well-known member
My brain hurts from trying to understand. I need pictures with circles & arrows... I think what you're wanting rather than a 2 story garage is a single story with a basement but I have to admit I'm on my first cup of coffee and not really sure ?
joe_padavano
Well-known member
That's exactly what he's asking about. Again, this is not difficult if you can tolerate lots of columns on the lower floor. Bank barns on farms have been built this way for centuries. Obviously this needs to be designed by a structural engineer, but it won't be horrible. In my case I wanted a clear span below, which meant building the upper deck using parking garage pre-cast panels, and that WAS expensive.
wssix99
Well-known member
Do you not have drive-up access to the lower level? Is that lower level really a basement? If you can, having a driveway down to the lower level will be several orders of magnitude less expensive, you'll end up with a stronger structure, and will need to go through fewer engineering/mechanical gyrations.
You'll definitely need an engineer for this one. The off-the-shelf engineering of the lifts is for an on-grade slab. Particularly if you bolt the lift to the floor, it will impart loads in to the building that will need to be accounted for in the structural design. Your lift manufacturer may also waive their liability and your warranty for such an installation.
You probably cannot do this safely without a mechanical engineer and modifications to the lift. (Probably cheaper to buy a new elevator.) Lifts and elevators are designed and braced differently. (A 4 post lift will typically not have the diagonal structure/bracing needed to withstand a dynamic load moving on top while the platform is raised.)
volleyball
Well-known member
The lift would be installed in the lower section so that would solve the moving load problem with the lift itself. I am not sure how moving on and off would stress it.
The cheapest option is to rent a storage bay at some other location
The cheapest option is to rent a storage bay at some other location
I think there are better and cheaper ways to solve your desired criteria that you should explore.
Regardless, I immediately thought of the following. Keep in mind, this was on a multi-million dollar garage holding millions of dollars of cars in Tahoe. Most don't have those kind of resources, but it is pretty cool.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-57413348-48/a-garage-batman-would-envy/
Fixed it for you
KELLHAMMER
Well-known member
Except for any type of lift, elevator etc a structure to support a vehicle can easily be designed in wood. Bank Barns are a perfect example. I have designed several structures that have upper levels that can support a car or cars. One that is rated to hold 2 feet of water over a 20 x25 foot area (250lbs per sq ft ) All done in wood. The framing for this isn't all that exotic, but is much beefier than standard residential framing. Floor decking can be done using 2x t&g lumber on 3by floor joist spaced 12"or 16" on center. Depending on final spans and loads Girders supporting floor joist can be steel or heavy timber depending on spans and loads. It would wise to hire an architect or a structural engineer to prepare the design drawings for such a structure. Since there are critical calculations that need to take place to ensure the structure is safe for the intended use. As well as, making sure it is economical. Which is done by not being overkill in it's design.
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wssix99
Well-known member
There are the dynamic loads that get transferred to the connections of the posts to the floor and the connections to the posts at the metal platform in the middle of the posts. The connections from the posts to the platform are the ones that can probably not stand a car moving on the platform when it is off the ground.
If you look at the example above with the RV, there are diagonal braces to counter these types of loads. A normal light duty 4 post lift does not have this type of bracing.
volleyball
Well-known member
But he doesn't have a light duty lift. Limo's are heavy. And you can always cross brace a light duty lift. The opening could also be made to lock the lift into not swaying. You pull an drivetrain from a vehicle on a lift and think nothing of it. That changes the load dramatically
That's what I was thinking. It would be very easy to tie the post on the lift into the surrounding floor system. I would also design the top parking portion
to also lock into the surrounding floor when the lift is all the lowered.
Did some research on poured in place floors and walls. Stay in place foam forms look very promising. Not sure of the cost per foot.
volleyball
Well-known member
I assume you have space limitations to even consider this. As well as a large budget.
A whole other direction would be to build a ramp up or down to a second story. The storage section would not need a driveway in front of it.
On that note if you have a need for storage, put in a loft. Use the floor space for the seldom used vehicle. The lift could then be used for repairs and as an elevator for the stuff in storage. With storage, you probably could have more support posts that would not get in the way like they would be for a vehicle. Save you lots of money.
A whole other direction would be to build a ramp up or down to a second story. The storage section would not need a driveway in front of it.
On that note if you have a need for storage, put in a loft. Use the floor space for the seldom used vehicle. The lift could then be used for repairs and as an elevator for the stuff in storage. With storage, you probably could have more support posts that would not get in the way like they would be for a vehicle. Save you lots of money.
It's not as hard as you might think to support heavy loads with wood. You just need a lot of it. My building is 100 years old, and the first floor where I park is about 3.5' off the ground. It is framed out with rough cut (full width) 4x12s spaced 12" on center. There are 12x12 posts under it 10 feet on center. The original flooring was 2 layers of 3/4" boards, and now it has two more layers of plywood so it is 3" thick. Second floor is built the same way and I could put cars up there if I had some kind of lift.
On this floor I have parked my 8500lb diesel truck next to my 6500lb gas truck next to my 7500lb forklift next to my 3500lb boat. Not so much as a squeak.
I also prefer the wood floor to concrete. I like the little bit of bounce it has.
On this floor I have parked my 8500lb diesel truck next to my 6500lb gas truck next to my 7500lb forklift next to my 3500lb boat. Not so much as a squeak.
I also prefer the wood floor to concrete. I like the little bit of bounce it has.
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volleyball
Well-known member
I know wood can be strong. Old growth or new engineered wood can be extremely strong. I use basically scraps to make what I call shanty town. A frame over an outdoor project to protect it (me) against the weather. Everyone thinks it is about to cave in but it never does, even with a snow load. Or staging to work up off of the ground.
I don't like it so much for a garage where petroleum products soak into the wood and then there may be flames or sparks.
I don't like it so much for a garage where petroleum products soak into the wood and then there may be flames or sparks.
wssix99
Well-known member
The loads at the extreme ends of the lift in a drive-on/drive-off scenario are several orders of magnitude greater than pulling a drivetrain, which is located closer to the center of a lift.
Gonz2828
New member
Hello Everyone, I'm new to the forum and also had a Mechanical Engineer degree, certainly not a structural engineer, but with fairly good understanding of loads, forces and structural stresses. I've joint this forum precisely for this thread about a 2nd level parking into an existing double deep garage. I also happened to have a commercial grade 4 post lift some time ago got the idea to built a 2nd story structure (Mezzanine) to double my vehicle storage capacity. My idea is very similar to that mentioned above and I have consider either using timber (wood) or steel supporting structure and trust combined with plywood sub-floor then top off with 2"x 10" planks flooring. Let say that the mezzanine would end up very similar to a wood structure bridge. With that said and to address the last point mentioned above of lift swaying; I would consider fixing the 4 post lift directly into the mezzanine structure to eliminate any sway.
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The bottom of the post are secured into the floor and the tops are secured to the second level. Would that not compensate for the additional stress of moving a vehicle onto the lift?
Think they might be stretching it a bit. Don't see what is keeping the last car on the mezzanine. I wouldn't trust it...
nolimits76
Well-known member
volleyball
Well-known member
You just tilt the rear wing to give lift instead of downforce.
Gonz2828
New member
True, and very good arguments on the ceiling hanging. Just put there to tease your mind a little and to push some out of the box thinking.
wssix99
Well-known member
joe_padavano
Well-known member
Kinda like this:
The only problem with a wooden bank-barn, as I noted above, is that typically the lower floor is broken up into stalls, so it's no big deal to have columns on eight foot centers. These really get in the way if you want to put vehicles down there. Also, the wooden floors tend to be made from oak timbers. These won't be cheap to get these days, and more importantly, the various timbers side-by-side don't make a particularly smooth floor if you want to roll stuff around on it.
As for the floor, I really want a poured in place cement floor. I don't mind some support post scattered under the main floor for support. The lower level will mainly be for storage of same items and such.
I would guess a poured floor would be in the range of 8-10 a foot.
I would guess a poured floor would be in the range of 8-10 a foot.
bczygan
Well-known member
All of this is academic.
What exactly is the layout of the lot?
Photos?
Zoning rules?
What exactly is the layout of the lot?
Photos?
Zoning rules?
Old barns are typically have posts all over but no reason you need to build it that way today. It would be really really easy to span at least a 20' distance with modern materials. No reason the floor needs to be made of "oak timbers", my floor was built with two layers of 3/4" fir tongue and groove boards running in opposite directions. Modern equivalent would be two sheets of T&G OSB. That will support a car just fine with big enough joists underneath. Of course, if you wanted concrete, you could use something thinner as a form and just leave it in place.
I'm planning on building another shop in a few years and I plan on using mostly 2x6 T&G floor boards. It's cheaper than concrete and I've been surprised that I do not miss concrete at all. It feels better to walk on all day. When the surface gets old and dirty just add another layer on top.
