2x4 vs 2x6 walls?

[Teebs]

Hi everyone!

I'm in the process of starting my garage reno shortly once the nice weather arrives which looks to be soon!

Garage is a 25x25ft 2 car detached garage built sometime around the 1930s with 2x3 (Actual depth 2.75") studs and joists. The joists will definitely be replaced to allow some storage upstairs and the plan was to add a 2x4 wall in front of the 2x3 wall bringing it flush with the foundation and allowing for 2x6 R22 insulation in the walls.

After talking with a coworker they insist it's not worth the extra cost and work of building up to a 2x6 wall. I would still need to strap the wall to fit a 2x4 batt in but rough estimate works the difference to be about $800.

Is that money better off spent somewhere else?

 

[LB-1911]

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=313783

 

[Teebs]

I'm located nearby Niagara Falls, ONT Canada. Literally right on the border of Canada and USA. Any closer I would be in the Niagara River.

 

[TAB57]

In kirkville ny have steel building with 8" walls keeps warmer in winter and cooler in summer maybe worth the cost if you can afford the small space loss.

 

[theoldwizard1]

After talking with a coworker they insist it's not worth the extra cost and work of building up to a 2x6 wall. I would still need to strap the wall to fit a 2x4 batt in but rough estimate works the difference to be about $800.

Most heat loss is through the ceiling/roof. Strap the studs and use 4" insulation.

I would be more concerned with are the wall strong enough to hold any increased load from the upgraded joists and stored items.

 

[volaredon]

Most heat loss is through the ceiling/roof. Strap the studs and use 4" insulation.

I would be more concerned with are the wall strong enough to hold any increased load from the upgraded joists and stored items.

for that reason I wish I'd have went with 2X6 instead of 2X4 walls. but either way I would have still built everything at 16" OC even with 2X6 walls, like I did with the 2X4 walls that I have. I see so many garages built at 24" OC... not strong enough for me.

 

[ADSR]

I have. I see so many garages built at 24" OC... not strong enough for me.

LOL, come on, really?

 

[beakie]

I'm a few hours away, but it would be worth the drive just to close the door on my 2x4 framed garage (built by previous owner) and see the "shutter" of the walls as it closes.

go 2x6
insulation is a bonus, but solididity (yes it is now a word!) is the reason to do it.

 

[Richard Cranium]

When I build my new garage it will have 2x6 walls, Better insulation. Hold a larger load.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

for that reason I wish I'd have went with 2X6 instead of 2X4 walls. but either way I would have still built everything at 16" OC even with 2X6 walls, like I did with the 2X4 walls that I have. I see so many garages built at 24" OC... not strong enough for me.

Yeah Ive never seen the sense of saving a few bucks by building anything on 24" centers either.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

LOL, come on, really?

Walk on a roof framed on 24" centers with that nasty *** 1/2"ish osb sheathing and those worthless clips sometime.
Then walk on a roof framed on 16" centers and 3/4" plywood,then tell me theres no differance.
Ill stick with the old ways of framing myself.
As far as wall framing goes its pretty tough to hurt a 2x4 wall framed on 16" centers with plywood sheathing.Other than insulation space Id say a 2x6 wall in a garage is kind of overkill unless of you have really tall walls or a shop sitting on top of it.

 

[ADSR]

Walk on a roof framed on 24" centers with that nasty *** 1/2"ish osb sheathing and those worthless clips sometime.

I've built over 25 homes like that in the last 10 years.

Gimme a break.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I've built over 25 homes like that in the last 10 years.

Gimme a break.

Those roofs are really flimsy arent they? Ive walked on 100s of those roofs myself over the years,its like walking on a water bed.
I can jump on a roof framed on 16s covered with 3/4" plywood ,just like walking on concrete.
Would you frame a house with the floor joists on 24" centers covered with 1/2" osb ?
Then why would you build a roof that has to support the weight of shingles and a **** load of snow depending on where you live?
Ive wired/plumbed way too many houses over the years and spent way to much time cutting plumbing stacks in ,theres a serious differance in strength between the roofs I walked on in the early 70s as an apprentice and the newer roofs Ive been on in the last 20 years.
It comes down to builders being cheap and home buyers not knowing the differance.

 

[Jazz1]

Build the wall up. I don't see the cost of utilities going down.

 

[ADSR]

Those roofs are really flimsy arent they? Ive walked on 100s of those roofs myself over the years,its like walking on a water bed.
I can jump on a roof framed on 16s covered with 3/4" plywood ,just like walking on concrete.
Would you frame a house with the floor joists on 24" centers covered with 1/2" osb ?
Then why would you build a roof that has to support the weight of shingles and a **** load of snow depending on where you live?
Ive wired/plumbed way too many houses over the years and spent way to much time cutting plumbing stacks in ,theres a serious differance in strength between the roofs I walked on in the early 70s as an apprentice and the newer roofs Ive been on in the last 20 years.
It comes down to builders being cheap and home buyers not knowing the differance.

Snow load here is 44lbs sq/ft. I'm light weight 185 and my buddy is 220 and he's never had a problem. I've seen some 260lb+ guys bend it good. The clips do ****, but it's only the lid on the house. It doesn't get a lot of traffic and the loads are spread out over it. It's only there to keep the walls from blowing out and the house dry

I'd have no problem using 24oc on my shack with 1/2 OSB as long as it was done in the summer. In winter, plywood. I've done 48oc with 2x4 purlins and OSB and it was still "OK" lol

 

[ddawg16]

I built my garage using 2x16 16" OC.

Several advantages....more room for insulation....wall is straighter....lots of room for wire....don't have to worry about using nail block plates.....

I wouldn't do it any different....

Now, on that 24" OC.....not me. Personally, it's a classic sign of trying to go cheap. Makes me wonder what else was scrimped on.

 

[ssdave]

It comes down to builders being cheap and home buyers not knowing the differance.

It doesn't come down to builders being cheap. Builders will put in what the buyers are willing to pay and what codes require, and will economize as much as they can to keep prices down, within the limits of minimum requirements.

The lighter span rated roof framing/sheathing is adequate for safety. The fact that you don't like to walk on it because of how it feels doesn't change that fact. These roofs do not fail from normal loading, nor from people walking on them occasionally. Designing them for the minimum standard lowers the cost to the homeowner, and conserves resources. The industry has moved to them because they work, and are cost effective. At the same time, they have moved to heavier floor joists and better flooring systems; this is because they and the buyers are willing to invest in things that really matter to the homeowner. They have also moved to better built, airtight houses and increased insulation. Not because it's cheaper, but because it matters. Safe, but thin roofs don't matter to most people, quiet, stable floors and well insulated houses do. So, houses are built with better floors and insulation, and with minimal, but adequate roof sheathing.

If you like thicker roofs, you still have that option when you specify and build a home for yourself. Many people that build custom homes choose to invest in things that exceed minimal standards that matter to them. Thicker roofs, better shingles, low maintenance trim and siding, upgraded plumbing fixtures, silent bathroom fans, high end appliances, commercial range vent hoods, efficient windows, solid core doors, spec grade electrical outlets. The list is endless. However, on a standard house, those items can add tens of thousands of dollars to the cost, and not raise the appraised the value even a fraction of that cost. So, standard builders do not incorporate them in, unless specified by the buyer, and paid for in the price.

 

[ADSR]

Now, on that 24" OC.....not me. Personally, it's a classic sign of trying to go cheap. Makes me wonder what else was scrimped on.

I'm OCD and I lay out a house in one direction from start to finish. The house is way better with 24oc walls with the trusses at 24oc directly above them. It chases the load all the way down to the foundation.

 

[ddawg16]

Or, lay them out 16" OC for both roof and walls....

I've seen walls done 24" OC......yikes....more waves than the North Sea......

 

[ssdave]

To address the additional topic: 2x3's are pretty minimal, but work for minimal walls. If you start adding additional loading, or wall mounted shelves, they may have problems. I think I'd look at moving out to 6" walls myself.

If you're only worried about the insulation value, I'd insulate with fiberglass, then cover with an inch of foam and sheetrock over that (use long screws) to finish the walls and bring the insulation value up. It'd be a lot less work, and probably similar cost to furring out the walls to 6 inches.

 

[The Cobbler]

Lumber is at an all time low factoring inflation etc. utilities keep rising. I would do the 6" insulation

 

[ADSR]

Or, lay them out 16" OC for both roof and walls....

I've seen walls done 24" OC......yikes....more waves than the North Sea......

I've done it. It add's like 5 - 6 grand on to a house. the real extra cost comes from the trusses.

Plus my arm gets sore having to nail that much more with the gun. So the price goes up.

Code here is every 6" for sheeting. And some roofs are 4" with 2 1/4

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

It doesn't come down to builders being cheap. Builders will put in what the buyers are willing to pay and what codes require, and will economize as much as they can to keep prices down, within the limits of minimum requirements.

The lighter span rated roof framing/sheathing is adequate for safety. The fact that you don't like to walk on it because of how it feels doesn't change that fact. These roofs do not fail from normal loading, nor from people walking on them occasionally. Designing them for the minimum standard lowers the cost to the homeowner, and conserves resources. The industry has moved to them because they work, and are cost effective. At the same time, they have moved to heavier floor joists and better flooring systems; this is because they and the buyers are willing to invest in things that really matter to the homeowner. They have also moved to better built, airtight houses and increased insulation. Not because it's cheaper, but because it matters. Safe, but thin roofs don't matter to most people, quiet, stable floors and well insulated houses do. So, houses are built with better floors and insulation, and with minimal, but adequate roof sheathing.

If you like thicker roofs, you still have that option when you specify and build a home for yourself. Many people that build custom homes choose to invest in things that exceed minimal standards that matter to them. Thicker roofs, better shingles, low maintenance trim and siding, upgraded plumbing fixtures, silent bathroom fans, high end appliances, commercial range vent hoods, efficient windows, solid core doors, spec grade electrical outlets. The list is endless. However, on a standard house, those items can add tens of thousands of dollars to the cost, and not raise the appraised the value even a fraction of that cost. So, standard builders do not incorporate them in, unless specified by the buyer, and paid for in the price.

Builders are the cheapest penny squeezers out there,ive dealt with enough of them over the years.
I should rephrase that,Not all builders are cheap tight *** penny pinchers.
Its mostly the ones like celebrity,benchmark.......... that throw up $200-$300,000.00 mass produced cookie cutter starter homes in cookie cutter sub divisions in west omaha that make me sick.
You can drive through any of those neighborhoods with 10-15 year old houses and tell where every truss is on every roof.
You can drive by and watch the vinyl siding wave back at ya.
Ive dealt with plenty of bottom feeding general contractors back when I had my shops running that would lead you along by a check to get you to do the next job so youd get paid for the last job.
Then theres the builders that would drop you in a minute and replace you with somebody who will wire or plumb a house for $500.00 less using junk materials.
They didnt care,As long as it made it through the 1 year warranty.
And I guarantee you they werent dropping the price for the homeowners by a dime.
Thats why I got to the point where we would only wire and plumb houses for a couple of custom builders Ive known for years and a few commercial general contractors. I didnt want our name associated with 1/2 *** builders,The craigslist bandits can have all that 1/2 *** work they want.
So yeah Id say after being around the building trades since around 1972 other than 8 1/2 years in the Army Ive got enough experiance to voice my opinion on the way things are done.

 

[CNGsaves]

OP . . . . you have this one chance . . . . to . . . Do It Right !!

Put in 2x6 walls and get the benefit of more insulation.

Cutting corners like 2x4 walls and 24" OC's is just cheap *** to me.

Most housing standards now are 2x6 walls anyway. Don't be "that guy" when house is for sale 20 years from now, and your garage is listed as sub-standard as it just has 2x4 walls !!

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

OP . . . . you have this one chance . . . . to . . . Do It Right !!

Put in 2x6 walls and get the benefit of more insulation.

Cutting corners like 2x4 walls and 24" OC's is just cheap *** to me.

Most housing standards now are 2x6 walls anyway. Don't be "that guy" when house is for sale 20 years from now, and your garage is listed as sub-standard as it just has 2x4 walls !!

The only issue Id have with furring the walls out to 5 1/2" would be how the bottem plates and any block under them are installed.
If you have the room to do it ,go for it.

 

[James-W]

I built my garage using 2x16 16" OC.

Several advantages....more room for insulation....wall is straighter....lots of room for wire....don't have to worry about using nail block plates.....

I wouldn't do it any different....

Now, on that 24" OC.....not me. Personally, it's a classic sign of trying to go cheap. Makes me wonder what else was scrimped on.

Same here. I would not even consider building it any other way. But to be fair, I have full storage space above the garage and I do have quite a bit of weight up there.

 

[ddawg16]

I did some searching.......mixed reviews.....

If anything was obvious.....

24" OC 'meets code'........barely

But the only people pushing are the contractors looking to save money.

And.....there is not a lot of long term history on it yet.

Kind of reminds me of the Aluminum wiring of the 60's.

 

[Bill Anderson]

Go the 2x6 route, and do spray foam insulation. You'll be glad you did. Then you can close all the doors and windows, and you won't be able to hear the water rushing over NF lol .

As far as 3/4" sheet goods on roofs, I've never seen it, osb or ply. I've seen 1x wood planks (in older houses), 1/2" plywood, and 1/2" osb (in newer houses), but I've never seen 3/4" sheathing on roofs. Is it in rare cicumstances, or special engineering requirements, heavy load situations, or just overbuilding? 3/4 sheet goods on floors I understand the rationale/requirement for that, but on the roof? I'll have to check it out. Our roof has 1/2" osb, im 260, and i get on the roof at least once a year for one thing or another, and its solid, and there is no sagging to be found anywhere. I'd never want 7/16" to be used on a roof, and the only way I'd use 3/4" on a roof, if it was 24oc, or it had a heavy load requirement.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Go the 2x6 route, and do spray foam insulation. You'll be glad you did. Then you can close all the doors and windows, and you won't be able to hear the water rushing over NF lol .

As far as 3/4" sheet goods on roofs, I've never seen it, osb or ply. I've seen 1x wood planks (in older houses), 1/2" plywood, and 1/2" osb (in newer houses), but I've never seen 3/4" sheathing on roofs. Is it in rare cicumstances, or special engineering requirements, heavy load situations, or just overbuilding? 3/4 sheet goods on floors I understand the rationale/requirement for that, but on the roof? I'll have to check it out. Our roof has 1/2" osb, im 260, and i get on the roof at least once a year for one thing or another, and its solid, and there is no sagging to be found anywhere. I'd never want 7/16" to be used on a roof, and the only way I'd use 3/4" on a roof, if it was 24oc, or it had a heavy load requirement.

The 3/4" was common around here for years,Thats why we have 40-50 yr old houses around here like the one Im sitting in that have nice straight roofs on them,Except for the ones where people cheaped out and throw thin *** fg shingles on them that dont hold up to out winters.
Ive bought old houses around here that had 3 plus layers of shingles on them that still had nice solid sheathing and trusses under them once they were stripped down,They never would of made it the way they throw them up now.

 

[theoldwizard1]

OP never said anything about 24" O.C. stud spacing !


If it were me and I REALLY wanted to beef up the walls (primarily for more load capacity) this is what I would do.

• Jack the wall up enough to remove the current bottom plate.
• Install a new PT 2x6 bottom plate.
• Drop the studs back down, but replace every other stud with a 2x6.
• Fir out the existing 2x3s.
• Insert a couple 2x4 (same thickness as the existing top plate) between the top of the 2x6s and existing joists.

A bit more work than the OP's plan but also less encroachment into the garage.

 

[wfopete]

All other factors being equal; structurally the 2x6 is stronger but as far as insulation, if you foam it (Closed Cell) a 4" cavity is more than adequate as 6" would be overkill & you could use the $ better somewhere else.

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ ^ Only the rich would go all 6" with foam insulation. Most cost effective would be 1 or 2" of foam, then rest normal insulation.

Haven't even heard whether OP would consider ANY foam even with 2x4 walls.

With the 2x6 walls, it gives OP lots of possibilities for insulation options.

 

[walrus]

I did 5.5 inches foam in my 16 by 24 addition for a master bed and bath. But I cut and fit seconds sheet foam in there. Lot of labor, room has no heat in it except what comes in thru door or floor. It's really comfortable.

 

[Ntzabtntr]

Hi everyone!

I'm in the process of starting my garage reno shortly once the nice weather arrives which looks to be soon!

Garage is a 25x25ft 2 car detached garage built sometime around the 1930s with 2x3 (Actual depth 2.75") studs and joists. The joists will definitely be replaced to allow some storage upstairs and the plan was to add a 2x4 wall in front of the 2x3 wall bringing it flush with the foundation and allowing for 2x6 R22 insulation in the walls.

After talking with a coworker they insist it's not worth the extra cost and work of building up to a 2x6 wall. I would still need to strap the wall to fit a 2x4 batt in but rough estimate works the difference to be about $800.

Is that money better off spent somewhere else?

Hey Teebs...

I don't think that we have all of the information to assess your situation. Adding the 2x4 wall to allow an R20 insulation value is a very good idea, but this should coincide with a ceiling R40 value. You mentioned about beefing up the ceiling joists to allow for storage. Will the storage area be heated? Or, will you be able to insulate the ceiling area to about an R40 rating and isolate the storage area?

For a heated and insulated building to work properly, you must also have proper attic ventilation. Heat will escape the insulated room at a slow rate, but will build up in the attic space and cause condensation to form in the insulation, unless allowed to exhaust to the outside. Vented soffits are a must as well as either roof or gable vents for the system to work.

Cheers...

Brian

 

[BruceMc]

24" OC 'meets code'........barely

But the only people pushing are the contractors looking to save money.

And.....there is not a lot of long term history on it yet.

Kind of reminds me of the Aluminum wiring of the 60's.

In cold parts of the country, 2x6 on 24 has been standard practice for decades. That's what I learned when I was framing 35 years ago. It not only provides a deeper cavity for insulation, it reduces the amount of thermal bridging by having fewer studs with a longer heat path to the exterior.

 

[b4z]

One thing about 2x4 walls that bothers me is how the wall shakes when a door is closed. I don't see that with older homes that have better lumber but very much so with new builds. 24" OC is fine as long as the roof rafter are up sized a bit from code. Say 2x8s rather than 2x6s. But I have seen waves in the roof that I don't see with 16" OC.

 

[ADSR]

One thing about 2x4 walls that bothers me is how the wall shakes when a door is closed. I don't see that with older homes that have better lumber but very much so with new builds. 24" OC is fine as long as the roof rafter are up sized a bit from code. Say 2x8s rather than 2x6s. But I have seen waves in the roof that I don't see with 16" OC.

That has more to do with who nailed it up. My walls don't do that. Remember, all interior walls are 2x4 and if the lazy drywallers do not screw it off right, it will boom everytime a door is opened and closed. Drywall should have 2 screws on each edge and 3 in the field every stud. If not, it will rattle.

 

[ADSR]

In cold parts of the country, 2x6 on 24 has been standard practice for decades. That's what I learned when I was framing 35 years ago. It not only provides a deeper cavity for insulation, it reduces the amount of thermal bridging by having fewer studs with a longer heat path to the exterior.

Agreed. Way more cold joint transfer. I'm beginning to see owners opt for styrofoam on the outside of the building before the siding. Must be a pain to pack the windows out for it.

 

[Voi]

Garage is a 25x25ft 2 car detached garage built sometime around the 1930s with 2x3 (Actual depth 2.75") studs and joists. The joists will definitely be replaced to allow some storage upstairs and the plan was to add a 2x4 wall in front of the 2x3 wall bringing it flush with the foundation and allowing for 2x6 R22 insulation in the walls.

Is that money better off spent somewhere else?

I started to read the thread on my phone and it seemed to be getting off track and didn't read all of the responses closely. Sorry if some of this has been covered.

In my opinion if the walls are structurally sound you'd be much better off doing an interior layer of rigid foam over the studs. You'd give up less wall space and do more to reduce thermal bridging. You could then strap over the foam and install drywall or paneling of your choice. There is one blogger on one of the building science websites who thinks rigid foam is most appropriately placed on the interior in heating climates.

Don't get caught up in additive R values. Air sealing and reducing thermal bridging is what you want to do in your climate.

If you did do an interior wall then I'd space the sill plates apart slightly and stagger the studs so they don't line up. You'd be building a double wall of which there are many varieties. You'd have to read up on what the appropriate way would be to keep your sheathing warm to prevent water accumulation on the interior side of the sheathing in your climate.

If your garage renovation includes removing siding then you could even do rigid foam on the outside and leave even more interior space.

With such a small space my first choice would be rigid foam on the outside, if practical. Second would be rigid foam on the interior. I can post a link to an article about how to calculate thickness of foam for your climate if you'd like.

I would only do a double wall if I was somehow planning to make the interior wall load bearing in the process of replacing the joists.

Again, my apologies if some of this was covered in previous posts.

 

[TractorJeff]

OP says "Garage is a 25x25ft 2 car detached garage built sometime around the 1930s with 2x3 (Actual depth 2.75") studs and joists."
Don't you guys get it?
It was built in 1930 to STORE cars in!
It wasn't built to hide from the wife in your own little castle!
Strap out the walls and insulate it!
Double a portion of the 2x3's(think 4x4) to get more strength to support whatever you decide to put upstairs.