2x4 vs 2x6 walls?

[Ironcrow]

In cold parts of the country, 2x6 on 24 has been standard practice for decades. That's what I learned when I was framing 35 years ago.

Yes. And 35 years ago 2x6 was a "green" selling point. Now we look at foam on the outside or double 2x4 walls to reduce thermal bridging if we are interested in "green".

 

[James-W]

Since the walls are only made from 2X3 stock I don't see how that would meet any kind of building code, at least around here it wouldn't. Perhaps you should get someone from the local building inspection department to look it over and find out just what needs to be done to the building to make it meet the current building codes and let them know what you want to do for attic storage so they can factor that in as well.

Personally, if it were me, I would also look into the cost of putting up a new building as well as the cost of renovating the existing one. Once you have a rough idea as to the cost of new versus renovation, you can make a more informed decision as to what you want to do.

 

[Justanoldguy]

LOL, come on, really?

In New Zealand Most stand alone garages are 2 x 4 at 24" centres.
Works fine here.. lol

 

[ADSR]

In New Zealand Most stand alone garages are 2 x 4 at 24" centres.
Works fine here.. lol

I'd use that here if it didn't cost a fortune to heat. I hear you get a lot of sun there

 

[Justanoldguy]

I'd use that here if it didn't cost a fortune to heat. I hear you get a lot of sun there

We get more than our fair share..

Even the majority of our housing is 2 x 4 pine framing.

 

[lakeroadster]

Hi everyone!

I'm in the process of starting my garage reno shortly once the nice weather arrives which looks to be soon!

Garage is a 25x25ft 2 car detached garage built sometime around the 1930s with 2x3 (Actual depth 2.75") studs and joists.

Since the walls are only made from 2X3 stock I don't see how that would meet any kind of building code, at least around here it wouldn't. Perhaps you should get someone from the local building inspection department to look it over and find out just what needs to be done to the building to make it meet the current building codes and let them know what you want to do for attic storage so they can factor that in as well.

Personally, if it were me, I would also look into the cost of putting up a new building as well as the cost of renovating the existing one. Once you have a rough idea as to the cost of new versus renovation, you can make a more informed decision as to what you want to do.

Code Schmode... it's been around since the 1930's... that's evidence enough the design is satisfactory.

 

[Ironcrow]

Code Schmode... it's been around since the 1930's... that's evidence enough the design is satisfactory.

You got that right! I had a buyer's inspector that was going to write up a report including a discrepancy in the way the joist blocking was done in my basement. I told him the same thing. It's been working fine for 90 years. I ain't changing it now.

 

[Teebs]

The 2x3s have been holding the building up just fine since the 1930s. Bought the house off the bank about 4 years ago after it had repossessed and left empty with a large hole in the roof for a year. So the previous owners unwanted possessions were tossed either by the previous owner, or the company hired by the bank to manage the property into the garage attic and still remain there. I'd estimate half a dozen truck loads of junk and it's still standing.

My best guess is the garage has seen a few uses. There was a large brick chimney that I literally pushed over, looks like it may have had barn doors on the front at one point and I keep digging up horseshoes. I'm pretty close to the horse racing here, so it's possible it was built for a farrier?

At some point a garage door was added and may have been used by a backyard mechanic. There was a locked cabinet with key rings hanging up when I moved in and various parts in the backyard and attic.

Also appears the attic space was used as a hangout for the kids. Tons of names written on the ceiling and joists with dates. All this is speculation and rumors from some of my personal investigating and talking to some of the long time neighbours.

I resided the garage a couple years ago and extended the roof overhangs out since they were almost flush with the wall. No foam on the outside and I never liked the idea of foam on the outside walls. I've heard too many bad stories from contractors here fixing damage caused by trapped moisture.

The thought had crossed my mind to stagger the new wall to reduce thermal bridging but I haven't calculated the cost difference yet. Foam on the interior has also been considered but I haven't priced it out yet. My concern with the foam was finding studs in the future for hanging things.

 

[Voi]

No foam on the outside and I never liked the idea of foam on the outside walls. I've heard too many bad stories from contractors here fixing damage caused by trapped moisture.

Definitely need to take care to not trap framing and sheathing in a vapor barrier sandwich. Alas, since you've resided I would scratch this option off your list.

Foam on the interior has also been considered but I haven't priced it out yet. My concern with the foam was finding studs in the future for hanging things.

If I were doing this I'd install a beefy French cleat system as you go and know the stud locations. Let this take care of the majority of your hanging needs and use the screw locations on the cleats be your indicator of where studs are.

 

[Teebs]

Definitely need to take care to not trap framing and sheathing in a vapor barrier sandwich. Alas, since you've resided I would scratch this option off your list.

Most old houses here when they get resided it seems like it's standard practice to get blown in or exterior foam. Blown in is know to settle and collect moisture causing the walls to rot from the bottom up and foam can create a double moisture barrier. Plus the cost vs "estimated" savings didn't work out for me. I settled with house wrap and vinyl and don't regret it at all. It's a 910sq/ft home, it doesn't take much to heat...

If I were doing this I'd install a beefy French cleat system as you go and know the stud locations. Let this take care of the majority of your hanging needs and use the screw locations on the cleats be your indicator of where studs are.

That was the plan either way. Using the 4x8 sheets of siding cut to 4ft with a french cleat "chair rail" all the way around. Durable to handle some abuse since I do a lot of work on my cars in there and water resistant so when I get around to having water out there I can wash the car in the winter.

 

[kjdhawkhill]

Now, on that 24" OC.....not me. Personally, it's a classic sign of trying to go cheap. Makes me wonder what else was scrimped on.

And we have a winner. Having lived the majority of my life in homes 60 or more years older than me, and now living in a 1990s house built on the cheap, I've come to realize that everything "nice" about the newer home is simply dressing and topcoat. My house is 16" but hollow core doors, manufactured trim , 1/2" sheet rock don't compare to solid wood doors built by a carpenter in 1923, real woodwork and real plaster walls... Don't even get me started on flooring options...


If I ever contract to build a house I know I'll have a hard time even finding someone to do it the way I want, and an even harder time affording things the way I want...

In short, I'm too young to be a grumpy old man, but modern "architecture" of homes makes me angry.




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[sammons]

2x6 is my vote. More sturdy, increased insulation and wiring area. I had the same dilemma when I built mine and I'm very glad that I did

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[James-W]

Code Schmode... it's been around since the 1930's... that's evidence enough the design is satisfactory.

I don't care if the building has been standing since the 1830's, when you renovate a building you have to bring it up to the present day code, at least around here you do. Besides that, the opening poster wants to be able to have some storage space up above so he can put a bunch of stuff. He needs walls (and ceiling) that are strong enough to hold up the weight of whatever it is he wants to store up there.

 

[Junkman]

I would go for the 6" wall thickness, but I wouldn't do fiberglass. Instead, I would use closed cell foam. Energy prices are down presently, but it is only a matter of time till the high price of energy returns. I have seen gasoline prices raise this week by 10 cents. I am old enough to remember 25 cent gasoline, and back in the 1980's, a friend said to me, that the country will continue to prosper, as long as we have cheap energy. In the 2000's, energy prices skyrocketed, and our economy stumbled, and almost all of our manufacturing went overseas.
Getting back to the insulation, if you use foam, you don't have to worry about bugs or mice getting into the walls and nesting. Foam will also make the walls more rigid, and keep mold and rot at bay. It is more expensive to install, but when your utility bill arrives, you will be saving money, for as long as you will own the building. It will also increase its resale value.

 

[acer66]

I bought a 1901 farmhouse with walls and roof build with 2x4's 24" oc and the 1x planks on the walls were installed vertical,
was the first time I have seen that.

Seems to have worked fine but having said that all the new exterior walls I will frame will be 2x6 24" oc for better insulation and more space for electrical boxes and such.

 

[lakeroadster]

Code Schmode... it's been around since the 1930's... that's evidence enough the design is satisfactory.

I don't care if the building has been standing since the 1830's, when you renovate a building you have to bring it up to the present day code, at least around here you do. Besides that, the opening poster wants to be able to have some storage space up above so he can put a bunch of stuff. He needs walls (and ceiling) that are strong enough to hold up the weight of whatever it is he wants to store up there.

Bringing the entire building up to present day code? I think not. If your premise was factual it would mean nearly every remodel of a building older than 60 years would require demolishing the entire building and starting over.

Certainly any changes to the wall loading as a result of storage will need to be evaluated and signed off by a P.E.

 

[CNGsaves]

^ ^ ^ . . . 'Cept for Kalifornia !!!!

You start any remodel . . . then you MUST update to water saving toilets, etc.

With extreme drought, they've resorted to extreme measures.

 

[James-W]

Bringing the entire building up to present day code? I think not. If your premise was factual it would mean nearly every remodel of a building older than 60 years would require demolishing the entire building and starting over.

Certainly any changes to the wall loading as a result of storage will need to be evaluated and signed off by a P.E.

You can think whatever you want, but when you renovate something, around here at least, it must be brought up to the current building code. Everything he touches/works-on will need to be brought up to code. If he has to do any wiring, that will have to be brought up to code as well. Whatever he works on will need to pass current code inspections, at least that is how it works around here. Where he lives may be different, but I tend to think most places have similar building rules.

Think about it, if you are working on the walls to make then stronger, why WOULDN'T you have to bring the walls up to the current building code? It would be just like building a new garage, you have to follow the building codes and get everything inspected, except in this case he would "re-building" the walls in order to make then stronger to support the storage space and to be able to have more insulation.

 

[Teebs]

You can think whatever you want, but when you renovate something, around here at least, it must be brought up to the current building code. Everything he touches/works-on will need to be brought up to code. If he has to do any wiring, that will have to be brought up to code as well. Whatever he works on will need to pass current code inspections, at least that is how it works around here. Where he lives may be different, but I tend to think most places have similar building rules.

Think about it, if you are working on the walls to make then stronger, why WOULDN'T you have to bring the walls up to the current building code? It would be just like building a new garage, you have to follow the building codes and get everything inspected, except in this case he would "re-building" the walls in order to make then stronger to support the storage space and to be able to have more insulation.

While I see you point, there is a limit to what can be brought up to code with in reason and most inspectors here seem to understand that and are willing to make some exceptions. Furring the 2x3s up to a 2x4 will do nothing for improving the structure and in the 80+ years it's been standing on 2x3s there's no evidence of the structure being inadequate. My main reason for wanting to add the 2x4 wall is to gain extra R value and allow me to make the walls nice and true for finishing. Gaining structural strength is a welcome bonus and I doubt the 2x3s are going to start being an issue anytime soon.

 

[James-W]

While I see you point, there is a limit to what can be brought up to code with in reason and most inspectors here seem to understand that and are willing to make some exceptions. Furring the 2x3s up to a 2x4 will do nothing for improving the structure and in the 80+ years it's been standing on 2x3s there's no evidence of the structure being inadequate. My main reason for wanting to add the 2x4 wall is to gain extra R value and allow me to make the walls nice and true for finishing. Gaining structural strength is a welcome bonus and I doubt the 2x3s are going to start being an issue anytime soon.

I wasn’t trying to start a big argument about this, it’s just that I know from personal experience that around here when you remodel/renovate something you need to do it in accordance with the current building codes. I will give you a perfect example of this.

A good friend of mine has an older home and his wife has been on his case for a long time about remodeling their kitchen and getting all new appliances. He finally decided to do the remodel his wife has been nagging him about and he asked me to help him. I told him I would help as much as I could.

He went down and talked with the city building people and got the permits he needed and then he went with his wife and picked out all the stuff they wanted for the new kitchen.

We ripped down all the walls, (lathe and plaster) which was a real dirty/messy job and then threw it all out into a big dumpster he had procured from the waste disposal people. The wiring he had previously was only 2 wires but he did have 100 amp service and there were a few extra circuit breakers in the electrical box. Since we were adding some new circuits, he had to have an electrical permit and he had to bring the whole kitchen up to code and have it inspected.

The studs in the walls were not all the same, some studs were 12 inches on center, others were 24 inches on center, and the rest were all sorts of different distances apart and the inspector said we could have extra studs, but we had to at least have a stud every 16 inches. One problem we had was the studs were actually 2X4 so we had to use 2X6’s and cut them down with a table saw to be the right size, depth wise. Anyway, we ended up removing the old studs one at a time and putting in all new ones so that we could insulate with regular rolls of fiberglass insulation. Took us awhile to do that but it worked out really well.

Since we were working with the plumbing as well, we had to follow all the current plumbing codes for the whole kitchen. We ran plumbing for an ice maker/water in the door refrigerator and we replaced all the water lines in the kitchen and drain lines as well. We also ran power and water for the new dishwasher (they didn't had one before) and we even put in a garbage disposal, which I am not big fan of. Everything had to meet the current codes for plumbing.

In short, everything we worked on in the kitchen had to be brought up to the current building code and everything had to be inspected to be sure we did the work correctly.

That’s why I said what I did, around here if you remodel/renovate a building, whatever parts you are working on, when you are finished, it has to meet the current building codes. Things may be different where you live, I don’t know. All I can tell you is how it is around here but I think most places would have similar rules.

 

[frank001]

for that reason I wish I'd have went with 2X6 instead of 2X4 walls. but either way I would have still built everything at 16" OC even with 2X6 walls, like I did with the 2X4 walls that I have. I see so many garages built at 24" OC... not strong enough for me.

My garage built about a year ago has 2x6 studs 16" on center. I wouldn't use anything less. The roof tiles alone weigh 16,000 lbs! So even with no snow load here in S. Cal, 2x6 is the way to go.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=284998&highlight=frank001

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

While I see you point, there is a limit to what can be brought up to code with in reason and most inspectors here seem to understand that and are willing to make some exceptions. Furring the 2x3s up to a 2x4 will do nothing for improving the structure and in the 80+ years it's been standing on 2x3s there's no evidence of the structure being inadequate. My main reason for wanting to add the 2x4 wall is to gain extra R value and allow me to make the walls nice and true for finishing. Gaining structural strength is a welcome bonus and I doubt the 2x3s are going to start being an issue anytime soon.

Wht wouldnt gluing/nailing furring strips on the edge of the existing wood to make the 2x4s dimensionally make them stronger?
The stud walls are under a compression load,making them bigger would make them stronger to my simple way of thinking anyway.

 

[lakeroadster]

My main reason for wanting to add the 2x4 wall is to gain extra R value and allow me to make the walls nice and true for finishing.

Have you considered using regular 2 x 4 batts in the walls and then adding 2" 4'x8' sheets on the face of the studs? This will give you a thermal break and you'll end up with 5" of insulation.

I was going to do this on my attached garage but decided it wasn't cost justifiable since it isn't a heated space.

Just a thought..

Wht wouldnt gluing/nailing furring strips on the edge of the existing wood to make the 2x4s dimensionally make them stronger?
The stud walls are under a compression load,making them bigger would make them stronger to my simple way of thinking anyway.

It would make it stronger, technically, but the increase in strength would be negligible.

Take a 1-1/2" x 1" strip of pine, 8 ft long, and push on it, like buckling a column. Pretty easy to buckle isn't it?

 

[jt777]

Id do 2x6 for the money it should insulate more and just be sturdier. I'm not a professional carpenter though but i find it nicer to work with 2x6.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Have you considered using regular 2 x 4 batts in the walls and then adding 2" 4'x8' sheets on the face of the studs? This will give you a thermal break and you'll end up with 5" of insulation.

I was going to do this on my attached garage but decided it wasn't cost justifiable since it isn't a heated space.

Just a thought..



It would make it stronger, technically, but the increase in strength would be negligible.

Take a 1-1/2" x 1" strip of pine, 8 ft long, and push on it, like buckling a column. Pretty easy to buckle isn't it?

Thats why I say to glue and nail it to the existing board,Doesnt bend quite so easily that way.

 

[Dragfluid]

I must have missed this one before. I take it that you're going to heat it and play around in it in winter? Then it's a no brainer. Definitely do the 2x6 walls for the insulation! Blow in dense pack cellulose and put 1" rigid foam under the drywall. When you go to hang something on the wall, see if there's a stud there with a small nail, and if there isn't, use a quality drywall anchor, the kind that butterfly out. Yes, they work.

And you need to blow lots of cellulose up in the attic. At least 16". Forget about storing **** up in the attic. You put it up there, and it's there for life. If you want to store stuff, extend the length of the building.

 

[Randy in Maine]

I am sure someone up there manufactures SIPs that would suitable for your structure.

Not only stronger but also more energy efficient than almost any "stick built" out there. Less labor, time and waste to do it.

My wife's next husband is really going to enjoy it.

 

[SCMW]

We're in the midst of renovating a 1928 masonry building that will house my wood shop and other equipment. Lots of tuckpointing and a new roof are in the plan. The concept is to stud her out with 2x4's on 16" centers on the inside and use closed cell foam insulation for the roof and walls. Check to see what it would cost to go with closed cell spray foam. If a gnat farts in there, you'll smell it for weeks. ;-)

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I am sure someone up there manufactures SIPs that would suitable for your structure.

Not only stronger but also more energy efficient than almost any "stick built" out there. Less labor, time and waste to do it.

My wife's next husband is really going to enjoy it.

SIP's????????????????

 

[Teebs]

SIP's????????????????

Structural Insulated Panels... Big boy legos. There's a manufacturer here in town, but it's more suited to new construction or additions. Not really meant for renos?

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Structural Insulated Panels... Big boy legos. There's a manufacturer here in town, but it's more suited to new construction or additions. Not really meant for renos?

Okay now it makes sense.

 

[Voi]

Structural Insulated Panels... Big boy legos. There's a manufacturer here in town, but it's more suited to new construction or additions. Not really meant for renos?

SIPs are sometimes used in renovation projects but I don't think they're a good candidate for this case.

By the way, there is an article on Green Building advisor about the use of interior rigid foam. I could probably find the link but it's one of the articles that requires a paid subscription to the site. So I haven't read it. But there are discussions in the free forums about it.

Another retrofit to read up on is a Mooney wall. It wouldn't be my first choice for this project but maybe there is something about your interior remodel that will play nice with this approach.

 

[Randy in Maine]

I would get a price on the SIPs for a re-build. You have a pretty small structure. It may be about the same money as trying to improve what you have.

My 28x40x12 two bay with woodshop went up in just a few days and it is really energy efficient and strong.