3 phase and single phase in one shop.

[Jim Johnstone]

Hey guys a random thought popped into my head. I'm planning a new shop build in the spring and will have 3 phase in the shop. will I need 2 power feeds into the shop? one for the 3 phase and another for the single phase? or does the single get split from the 3 phase in the shop?

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[wyliesdiesels]

Hey guys a random thought popped into my head. I'm planning a new shop build in the spring and will have 3 phase in the shop. will I need 2 power feeds into the shop? one for the 3 phase and another for the single phase? or does the single get split from the 3 phase in the shop?

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Need more info to answer this question as there is several different types of 3 phase.

Do you know which type and voltage of 3 phase you are getting?

208Y/120, 480Y/277; 240D/120, 480D are the most common in the US...But you are in Canada so there is also 600Y/347

 

[manwithtools]

Typically if you have three phase service, you will use a transformer inside the building to supply the single phase loads. Depends on your three phase supply voltage. If it happens to be 208v / 3 phase / 4 wire, which I think you might be supplied with for a small building in your area; then you can get 120 volts from one 3 phase leg and neutral. This negates the need for a transformer.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Typically if you have three phase service, you will use a transformer inside the building to supply the single phase loads. Depends on your three phase supply voltage. If it happens to be 208v / 3 phase / 4 wire, which I think you might be supplied with for a small building in your area; then you can get 120 volts from one 3 phase leg and neutral. This negates the need for a transformer.

You can get 120v from each hot leg to neutral.

On the other hand with 240D/120, you can get 120v from only 2 hot legs amd neutral. The third leg is the "high leg" or stinger leg and is 208v to neutral.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

I know most of the machines I'm looking for are 600 volt.

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[manwithtools]

You can get 120v from each hot leg to neutral.

On the other hand with 240D/120, you can get 120v from only 2 hot legs amd neutral. The third leg is the "high leg" or stinger leg and is 208v to neutral.

Yes, that's correct. Any and all legs and neutral from a 208Y service will supply 120. I was not implying only "one" specific leg could be used.

 

[manwithtools]

Are you sure that Ontario Power will supply 600 volts to a small shop? Or is your new panned shop 20,000 sq. ft. or such?

 

[Jim Johnstone]

Are you sure that Ontario Power will supply 600 volts to a small shop? Or is your new panned shop 20,000 sq. ft. or such? [emoji38]_hitti[emoji38]_hitti

if I'm operating a business there, I see no reason why they wouldn't.

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[tfi racing]

Is there 3 phase out on the street? They may not run it it to a residential building either,your first step is talk to your utility,otherwise you get general answers from people that live nowhere near you and know little about your local requirements.

 

[klassenl]

Perhaps a simple answer to a complicated question. You can put in a transformer to step down from 600 to 208 and you can feed all of your 120/208 single and 3ph loads from there. Or you can have 2 separate services. Your electrical contractor will be able to tell you which makes more sense.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

Is there 3 phase out on the street? They may not run it it to a residential building either,your first step is talk to your utility,otherwise you get general answers from people that live nowhere near you and know little about your local requirements.

yes I'm not in a residential area. I'm in the country with nothing but farmland around me and all the local farmers have 3 phase to their out buildings.

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[Jim Johnstone]

Perhaps a simple answer to a complicated question. You can put in a transformer to step down from 600 to 208 and you can feed all of your 120/208 single and 3ph loads from there. Or you can have 2 separate services. Your electrical contractor will be able to tell you which makes more sense.

I guess the short answer is that i will still likely only have a single feed into the building, then have it branched off inside?

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[barbedwireleather]

Is there 3 phase out on the street? They may not run it it to a residential building either,your first step is talk to your utility,otherwise you get general answers from people that live nowhere near you and know little about your local requirements.

Finally somebody asked the right question[emoji847]If there’s no three-phase power at the street you are out of luck


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[Jim Johnstone]

Finally somebody asked the right question[emoji847]If there’s no three-phase power at the street you are out of luck


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I wouldn't have asked the question I didnt know in bad access to it.

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[4 FN 27]

Finally somebody asked the right question[emoji847]If there’s no three-phase power at the street you are out of luck

Not really true at least here in my area. I did not have 3 Phase at the street. I made a phone call and they pulled it from a 1/2 Mile away. I had to pay for the 5 new Poles and the labor to install them and portion of the 3 new Transformers near the 7700 volt source (I think it was 7700 but I could be wrong). But they were happy to provide the service.

We ran 208/120 (I think, I am not an electrician) 400 amp single phase to the house and 480/277 400 amp 3 phase service to the shop.

In the pic below the panel on the right is the main 480/277 3-Phase Panel. Off of that there is a feed to the transformer in the corner. The Transformer feeds the second panel from the left stepped down to 208/120. The Panel on the left is a subpanel at 208/120 since we ran out of space in the other panel.

The short Panel 3rd in from the left is 480/277 3 Phase for the Geothermal system which has it's own meter. This allows us to take the "Dual Fuel" credit and the KW rate is $.50 on the dollar to the normal KW rate which since it is 480 3 phase it is discounted $0.01 per KWH as it is considered commercial. The Power Company really struggled with this since they have very few customers running commercial power in residential areas. We still have issues with the billing. They forget to bill the 480 non-Geo power sometimes for 3 months in a row and we call and cal. Oh well...

I tried to get the Power Company to give me 2 separate services in the shop, 1 in 480/277 and 1 in 208/120 so I wouldn't have the transformer but they said no. I hate transformers when they are on my side of the Meter.

A little investment up front is saving me a few headaches as I add equipment.

Only thing I would have done different is I would have laid the panels out with the 480 Main on the left and feed the Transformer under the slab keeping it in the corner. My Electrician wasn't the best at planning ahead and I didn't think of it until I saw his lay out.

Let us know the outcome. Good luck.

 

[Matt Matt]

Jim, in Canada you are allowed only on a residential property, in coming 240 V single phase. You are allowed to step it up, but you are not allowed to disperse it. You are allowed to disperse it if your shop property is zoned on commercial property . Now what I mean by dispersing, you're not allowed to have above 150 V to ground in the walls or attached to the building in anyway.

I'm pretty sure this was as clear as mud.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

Finally somebody asked the right question[emoji847]If there’s no three-phase power at the street you are out of luck


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To clarify, 3-phase primary.

But with enough money anything can be done

 

[Matt Matt]

So I looked up the rule and more or less it is stated the same on both sides of the border.

This is my summarize.

"If the property is zoned residential you are not allowed to have more than 150 V to ground disbursed"

The dispersed part clarifies: no extension cords, no conduit, no attachment to building. But there are loopholes here.... it's under the generator act. Which I'll let you do your research on. Under generators and distribution. And there is some cross-referencing under the Solar/wind turbines generators.

Farm properties are allowed to have dual & triple zoning, if registered with the Town or city building department. And in some rare cases they can be grandfathered.

Bringing in real three-phase, two things need to be excepted. The Power companies application acceptance with the towns approval. This opens up a whole new can of worms.

Property transformer (depending on situation), property power demand calculation, allocated power room, more transformers, two or three meters, multiple panels....

Now from my experience:

Most power companies do not want to deliver multiple services. Unless you're willing to pay for prime demand on three phase. And are willing to pay for the labour and materials for the delivery.

I hope you report back with your full experience.

 

[Dragfluid]

To clarify, 3-phase primary.

But with enough money anything can be done

About 36 years ago, I inquired about the feasibility and cost of running 3 ph to my business. At that time, it was about 3/4 mile away. "Oh sure, there's that one big tree along the highway in the way that will have to go, but yea, we can do that........ $10,000."

To this day, I still have single phase.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

a friend of mine owns a huge produce farm with his family. they were quoted $250000 for 3 phase, they called the local member of parliament and a few weeks later the lines were in at no charge.

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[Matt Matt]

a friend of mine owns a huge produce farm with his family. they were quoted $250000 for 3 phase, they called the local member of parliament and a few weeks later the lines were in at no charge.

That is amazing. What was the 3p voltage they dropped on the property?

 

[Jim Johnstone]

That is amazing. What was the 3p voltage they dropped on the property?

I believe 600 volt, it was more the distance they had to run, but there were so many farms down the road the MP helped convince the utility to run the lines. we're in the middle of a similar situation with natural gas. no gas lines on our road, but several large produce farms that want it, so we're trying to get some help convincing the gas company to run the lines.

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[Matt Matt]

I believe 600 volt, it was more the distance they had to run, but there were so many farms down the road the MP helped convince the utility to run the lines. we're in the middle of a similar situation with natural gas. no gas lines on our road, but several large produce farms that want it, so we're trying to get some help convincing the gas company to run the lines.

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i'm just saying the last few shops that I help set up had 14,000 V dropped on the property and they were responsible for the properly transformer.

A lot of rural lines are in the 5000 range.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

i'm just saying the last few shops that I help set up had 14,000 V dropped on the property and they were responsible for the properly transformer.

A lot of rural lines are in the 5000 range.

well I don't see an external transformer on their property, the lines go straight from the pole to the farm building. would the step down transformer be inside?

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[manwithtools]

Generally primary voltages (over 600) are not allowed inside buildings unless you have a trained maintenance staff - think factory. If there is a step down transformer required it will be on the pole or on a pad near the building, but it will be outside.

 

[Jim Johnstone]

Generally primary voltages (over 600) are not allowed inside buildings unless you have a trained maintenance staff - think factory. If there is a step down transformer required it will be on the pole or on a pad near the building, but it will be outside.

ok that makes sense.

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[wyliesdiesels]

No way would a PoCo transformer be inside the premise.

If there was transformers inside a building in a vault, it would be customer owned. Ive seen several like that.