3 phase electric

[lukedwag]

How many of you guys have a 3 phase service? How much are you paying over what a single phase service would cost ? I'm planning a 40X64 and don't want to short myself on the juice.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Where are you at? If you're in a residential area it most likely will not happen. At least not for a reasonable price...

Tommy

 

[Rookie2]

Personal use or a business ?

 

[930dreamer]

No power company 3 phase, I use a rotary phase converter in my shop. If your not in an established light industrial area wait for the sticker/install/cost shock.

 

[Stuart in MN]

What everyone else said, and it also depends on what size of machinery you're planning on using. The vast majority of homeowners/hobbyists don't need it.

 

[My Old Tools]

Rotary phase converter here too.

 

[tractordude]

You would pay a extra fee for that monthly, residential or commercial. About $25~35 depending on your provider.

The nice thing about 3 phase equipment, it sells for much less at auctions. I guess the general population has never heard of a phase converter.

 

[theoldwizard1]

3 phase is typically ONLY available in commercial areas. Maybe some rural area with big farms.

 

[thecj3man]

I live out in the middle of nowhere and for some odd reason 3 phase power runs right by my house. The houses along the street are hooked up to it, or at least two wires of it. I asked about getting it when I had a new service installed. The cost was $10k vs $2k for standard 200 amp service.

 

[4 FN 27]

How many of you guys have a 3 phase service? How much are you paying over what a single phase service would cost ? I'm planning a 40X64 and don't want to short myself on the juice.

I brought 3 Phase onto my property when we built the house in 2008-09. I called my local electric which happens to be Excel and they came out and gave me a time and material not to exceed bid. Now I am not going to tell you it is cheap or sell you on the fact that the cost per KWH is $0.01 less than my home electrical cost.

But I wanted 3 Phase and was willing to pay for it. Why...well my long term plan is to retire and play in my shop and have every piece of equipment I dreamed of while I couldn't afford squat while restoring and building cars back in the day. I am at that point now and just installed a Sharp VMC with a Fanuc Control on it. Brand new unit. If I had a phase converter there is no warranty.

Now my Bridgeport, Lablond Lathe and Press Brake can all run off a phase converter but it is not reliable power for a servo drives equipment with high end drivers.

So I opted for a 400 amp 3 Phase service.

Additional costs: Step down transformer, 480 Panel(s), Disconnects and a few other things. The meter cost is the same per month but a minor savings on the KWH price.

Now where you can save serious money is the gauge of wire is half for the 480. So if you have long runs with the price of copper you can save little chunks here and there. But you'll spend it on the disconnects and cord caps.

All that said I would do it all over again. I brought the power up the street from a 1/2 mile away. The power company ended up charging me 77.3% of the original bid. I had to pay 100% upfront so I got a nice check back when they were done.

Now the city, for a lack of better words they were pissed off but there wasn't anything they could do about it. The deal was between me and Excel and they had zero say.

So I own the 5 poles, the three additional wires and a giant transformer on the ground and 3 in the air. At least that is what I tell myself...LOL...

 

[sberry]

There needs to be a reason for it. Or should be. Unless you plan on a real machine shop you dont need it.

 

[klassenl]

In my part of the world, no company will even bring 3 ph to a residence.

Believe it or not there is 3ph in the alley behind my house. It runs at 4160 volts (plus or minus) so not useful to me.

 

[4 FN 27]

In my part of the world, no company will even bring 3 ph to a residence.

Believe it or not there is 3ph in the alley behind my house. It runs at 4160 volts (plus or minus) so not useful to me.

Where are you at?

I bet if you ask for a bid they give you a quote. Never heard of an electricity supplier turning down a paying work order from a customer. Unless the local Gov has an ordinance against it which I doubt.

 

[md21722]

In my part of the world, no company will even bring 3 ph to a residence.

Believe it or not there is 3ph in the alley behind my house. It runs at 4160 volts (plus or minus) so not useful to me.

4160 is common in urban or suburban areas. 7200 is also used, probably more so in rural areas. Then transformers are used to deliver 120/240V single phase to homes.

 

[klassenl]

It is part of the code.

In town on a residential lot there is no way to get Fortis to bring me 3phase. If I lived outside of town I could build a shop on the opposite side of my property and they would drop 3phase 480v or 600v as long as I was willing to pay for it. Kind of dumb.

 

[William Payne]

I don't live in america so am a bit different but I for my needs wouldnt not have it. I have industrial grade machines in my home garage. For me 3 phase power is extremely beneficial.

For me it was a required need to be able to run my machines. Also down here in new zealand when it comes to industrial surplus equipment, 3 phase is the norm, to get equivalent in single phase is extremely expensive here as you either have to buy brand new or pay a premium on the used market as the used market is dominated by 3 phase gear.

Your needs may differ.

I personally am of the opinion to have a power supply to match your equipment rather then buy equipment to match your power supply.

Don't take my views as gospel though as I don't live in america and also 3 phase sounds very very expensive to install over there in the states. Its not cheap here but its on every power pole so much easier to access.

 

[gnpenning]

I have 3 ph. It's about $25 a month more for the base charge. KWH cost is on a sliding scale depending on how much I use every month.

 

[4 FN 27]

It is part of the code.

In town on a residential lot there is no way to get Fortis to bring me 3phase. If I lived outside of town I could build a shop on the opposite side of my property and they would drop 3phase 480v or 600v as long as I was willing to pay for it. Kind of dumb.

Wow...dumb is right.

 

[sberry]

The OP likely doesn't even know if he needs this, he is just worried about more juice. Not one word about what a guy might likely to be doing in the place.

 

[Alchymist]

The OP likely doesn't even know if he needs this, he is just worried about more juice. Not one word about what a guy might likely to be doing in the place.

Would take quite a home shop (or small commercial one) to max out a 400 amp service which is readily available. I "could" go 3 phase if needed, the wires are right across the road from the shop. On the other hand, my 3 car is fed with a 60 amp service, and haven't come close to maxing it out. (Did wire it with #4 copper, so I could up the breaker if needed, but haven't needed to).

 

[sberry]

No home shop will tap a 400/3 to the max. They wouldn't a 200 and they wouldn't 100. Lets do a hp calc to see what size motor could be put on 400, in excess of 100 hp maybe. How many watts and what would the bill be per hr?

 

[4 FN 27]

No home shop will tap a 400/3 to the max. They wouldn't a 200 and they wouldn't 100. Lets do a hp calc to see what size motor could be put on 400, in excess of 100 hp maybe. How many watts and what would the bill be per hr?

Probably not. But I'll take a run at it. For my current equipment and future plans on equipment I need clean 3 phase power. The OP, I don't know what his needs might be???

Back when we built our Fab Shop Excel would only give us a 600 amp transformer based on the equipment installed at the time. I did put a 2000 amp service inside the building planning ahead for growth. Has single Phase protection and a Cap Bank to keep the power factor in check. About 4 years after we moved in our Transformer blew up. Additional equipment added to big of a load.

We were down for 3 days while they designed, acquired and installed a 2000 Amp. Lucky for us it blew on a Thursday afternoon and they had us back online Sunday.

Bigger is better IMHO except when it comes to Gov, Women and Taxes...LOL...

 

[laser3kw]

where did the OP go?
lots of questions, little feedback......

 

[4 FN 27]

where did the OP go?
lots of questions, little feedback......

Popped breaker and cannot get online.

 

[sberry]

Right,,, but you have a use for this service other than the building dimensions which probably seem large at this point. The internet amplifies the load calcs. Most of the worlds work in small garages use 2 circuits for 90% of it, one lightly loaded for lights and a few wall warts and one with a tool plugged in they a 15A cord. The next demand in line is air comp and the duty cycles are quite low its almost a non factor.
A common garage adds almost nothing to loads, its just so intermittent and adds 1 tool at a time. This is obviously not true for those with special plans but most people that do this already know.

 

[sberry]

How much of this 400 you figure you used in this "retired to play" with car stuff you figure you used? Obviously money wasn't a primary concern here if we are retired and buying new machines and worried about warranty.
This kind of makes my point, 1 partial question and everyone is piling on, next thing this guy will think this is something he must have and it could involve great expense to something he wouldn't even use.

 

[Rock knocker]

Where are you at?

I bet if you ask for a bid they give you a quote. Never heard of an electricity supplier turning down a paying work order from a customer. Unless the local Gov has an ordinance against it which I doubt.

I think Klassen is right.

It's not that three phaes is disallowed in homes, but that supply voltage greater than 120 to ground is not allowed in a residential setting.

So you are allowed 208/120, but not 240 three phase. But the power distribution in the street doesn't readily allow 208/120 drops to houses, they won't do it.

I think part of this is covered in 210., and the rest is economics.

 

[4 FN 27]

How much of this 400 you figure you used in this "retired to play" with car stuff you figure you used? Obviously money wasn't a primary concern here if we are retired and buying new machines and worried about warranty.
This kind of makes my point, 1 partial question and everyone is piling on, next thing this guy will think this is something he must have and it could involve great expense to something he wouldn't even use.

Not retired yet but planning ahead. Not sure if I have 2 1/2 years per the original plan or 7 1/2 based on the fun I am having in the business. Either way I like to plan and work ahead.

How much of the 400? Not really sure. But based on my discussions with my Electrician and the power companies rep this was the best solution.

I do plan on putting in a 5 Axis Machining Center, 1/4 inch Shear, Water Jet and either a Hi-Def Plasma or a 2500+ watt Laser. I doubt all of it would be running at the same time. That would be working out of my "retirement"...that would mean I am busier than I would like.

The Warranty word is a little misleading. What I mean is if a Machine Tool Manufacturer will not warranty a Machine because it is on a Phase Converter because of "dirty power" I want to steer clear of any issues. We have lost servo drivers here at the Fab Shop and I have signed off on repair bills over $10K. I certainly do not want to do that on the home front (or the business front but it is what it is in business).

I am not stupid with money. The Machine Tools are an investment. Should something happen to me my Wife could recoup the investment to a certain extent. Looking out in the future as our younger generations age will they share the same passion "we" share building stuff in the backyard with low tech or high tech equipment or will they be chasing Pokiemon? If they are chasing Pokiemon or whatever it is and the schools are not sparking that interest in fabrication/machining tools and equipment will there be a market for said equipment you and I own in the future???

As mentioned 3 Phase equipment sells for less...but there will be a guy that someday after I am gone buys my VMC and runs it on a Converter and has great success.

In my 30+ year career in fabrication I have only bought new equipment 99.5% of the time. Guessing, I am thinking at least 20 Turrets, 16 lasers and over 50 press Brakes. People stand inline to buy our trade ins because we take care of the equipment. Turrets last forever so those don't get changed out as often. Lasers are changed out frequently because of technology updates and the same with Press Brakes. Since we moved into this facility with the clean power we have in house we have very few if any power related issues. Can't say that about our old facility.

I am sure the OP will make up his own mind on his best practice. When someone shares their experience or knowledge I love to listen and learn. When some one starts the conversation with "you know what you ought to do" I am going to listen and listen hard because only I know my situation and sort through the bs and come to my own resolve.

I like te knowledge and experience this place has to offer...

 

[4 FN 27]

I think Klassen is right.

It's not that three phaes is disallowed in homes, but that supply voltage greater than 120 to ground is not allowed in a SFR.

I think this is covered in 210.

I believe it. But I would still ask. Only reason why is back when I built my first house my builder told me I could not have a Floor Drain in the Garage. He said it was against the code. Moved in, met my neighbor and was standing in his garage with a floor drain right in the middle. It was not against the code. Just had to add a flameable waste trap. I learned my lesson. I dig for the answers. I don't shop for them.

My builder at my current residence and the electrician both told me I could not have 3 Phase power. I made the call to Excel and they said no problem.

Lesson learned. If you don't ask, you don't get.

 

[Steve from Socal]

It is going to depend on a number of things, tarrifed rate and zoning in cities vary widely. I have 600 amp 480 service at my shop, in addition to power and taxes most 3 phase service has a demand fee. Once you use power above the demand base for X time you pay additional charges to have the power available. The demand charge changes with use,some times with billing cycles some times not. If you have 10KW of demand on billing period, then the next billing period you only use 5KW in demand, it may change or it could be averaged over a longer time.

Another thing to remember, you buy power by the watt, a 200 amp 480 service has as much KW power as a 400 amp 240 service. Also; with 480 service you will need your own transformer for 240/120 service.

While three phase motors ARE more efficient than single phase motors generally, if you pay demand, your bills would be higher. There are a few places in SoCal that do have three phase in residential areas with out demand but, I think they all have TOU meters.

My shop is in Kansas, if I moved my machinery back to California, I would look at either a battery bank or Phase Perfect type phase converter. The battery bank I am taking about would be on the order of a Chevy Bolt type, 60~70KW driving three phase inverters.

Steve

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I brought 3 Phase onto my property when we built the house in 2008-09. I called my local electric which happens to be Excel and they came out and gave me a time and material not to exceed bid. Now I am not going to tell you it is cheap or sell you on the fact that the cost per KWH is $0.01 less than my home electrical cost.

But I wanted 3 Phase and was willing to pay for it. Why...well my long term plan is to retire and play in my shop and have every piece of equipment I dreamed of while I couldn't afford squat while restoring and building cars back in the day. I am at that point now and just installed a Sharp VMC with a Fanuc Control on it. Brand new unit. If I had a phase converter there is no warranty.

Now my Bridgeport, Lablond Lathe and Press Brake can all run off a phase converter but it is not reliable power for a servo drives equipment with high end drivers.

So I opted for a 400 amp 3 Phase service.

Additional costs: Step down transformer, 480 Panel(s), Disconnects and a few other things. The meter cost is the same per month but a minor savings on the KWH price.

Now where you can save serious money is the gauge of wire is half for the 480. So if you have long runs with the price of copper you can save little chunks here and there. But you'll spend it on the disconnects and cord caps.

All that said I would do it all over again. I brought the power up the street from a 1/2 mile away. The power company ended up charging me 77.3% of the original bid. I had to pay 100% upfront so I got a nice check back when they were done.

Now the city, for a lack of better words they were pissed off but there wasn't anything they could do about it. The deal was between me and Excel and they had zero say.

So I own the 5 poles, the three additional wires and a giant transformer on the ground and 3 in the air. At least that is what I tell myself...LOL...

I assume the pad mount trany is for single phase 120/240 service. How large is it?

Do u have to pay demand charges and time of use rates?

 

[md21722]

I would have considered a Phase Perfect too, have not used one personally but have never heard anything bad about them. Kudos to 4 FN 27 for getting what he wants out of life, even if it doesn't make sense to others, live and let live. If 3 phase was easy where I live I'd have it too. By the time you buy single phase new, convert 3 phase to single phase, or buy into converters, sometimes its just nice to get a bill from the power company who provides reliable power for a low monthly cost. I am wondering if Xcel takes care of you better because you have 3 phase. They are a pretty good company, I work with them daily and the general perception I get is that they really do try to take care of their customers.

 

[matt_i]

Ime, if you are trying to run servo drives or things that regen-sink power back to the grid, at or near a place you live (i.e. generally residential or rural area), the most economical solution is a Phase Perfect. In very rough terms its a DC bus which gets charged up and then VFD-style IGBT technology PWMs the missing phase. The huge bonus is if you ever move, the thing goes with you to your next shop with only paying for your wire cost. The tradeoff is if it stops working you pay Phase Perfect rather than calling the utility. I've been using it for 5 years now, not a heavy user but its lights out reliable running a Fadal and a Mazak plus other fab items like a 10hp hydraulic shear, OD & surface grinders, automatic bandsaw, etc.

They make "CNC-rated rotary phase converters" but I personally wouldn't touch them. I don't want to save on the incoming electrical and pay 3x as much in dead servo drives and troubleshooting costs. Some people use them successfully but that's my reason for not using them.

If you are just running lightly loaded motors (mill, lathe, bandsaw) then a rotary phase converter is excellent and effective. If you have a good electrical background then a VFD per machine is a nice way to go, as funds become available with the added bonus of variable speeds.

 

[wyliesdiesels]

I think Klassen is right.

It's not that three phaes is disallowed in homes, but that supply voltage greater than 120 to ground is not allowed in a residential setting.

So you are allowed 208/120, but not 240 three phase. But the power distribution in the street doesn't readily allow 208/120 drops to houses, they won't do it.

I think part of this is covered in 210., and the rest is economics.

not entirely true.

On 120/240v delta, voltage to ground is 120v on 2 out of 3 legs. The third leg is the high leg or stinger and is 208v to neutral/ground.

Also, out here homes that share the same transformer that businesses use are fed 120v/208v single phase...

 

[sberry]

This aint a hobby,,, I can do without the stuff and like it all single plug and play 50A and under if I can do with it. I own 1 piece would overheat a number 10 wire and don't even use it.
Agree if a guy wants machine tools it has a place and would prefer line voltage too. All we know though is the guy is considering a 40x64 garage, the rest is speculation.

 

[Norcal]

not entirely true.

On 120/240v delta, voltage to ground is 120v on 2 out of 3 legs. The third leg is the high leg or stinger and is 208v to neutral/ground.

Also, out here homes that share the same transformer that businesses use are fed 120v/208v single phase...

But the high leg is not used as a L-N load, standard 120/240V circuit breakers are not allowed to be used on the high leg. There are many older homes in the Phoenix area that have 120/240 3Ø power, using the now prohibited delta breaker as early A/C units were 3Ø only.

 

[matt_i]

Just to add to the discussion, I had a medium conversation with my utility's field-engineer when I was close to building my shop in TN (Duck River EMC). The basis of that was the utility was going to remove my 1 pole-mounted transformer and install 3, larger ones in its place. I had to dig the trench and install a 5" conduit (yes no typo) with a 1/4" nylon pull rope from the bottom of the power pole to the meter base. They inspected it, and if approved, also furnished the wire (forget the size of the service, I'm thinking 200A, but the uniform install instructions were also for a 400A service). Essentially they put multi-thousands of dollars and labor and materials into setting a person up, which was partially covered by the up front cost (around $8k as I recall) but they also wanted to sell power long-term at a steady volume. Essentially the economics of it had to work out slightly in their favor, as they aren't trying to make wild profits but rather to be just better than solvent.

The appointment with the field-engineer was free and was well worth the time spent. I'd recommend anyone considering a service install (1 or 3ph) to even have just a basic phone chat with them. Its even better if they come out and look at your property.

 

[4 FN 27]

I assume the pad mount trany is for single phase 120/240 service. How large is it?

Do u have to pay demand charges and time of use rates?

75 KVA Transformer

NO demand charges. The House bill is identical to the shop bill except the KWH rate is $0.01 less.

I would have considered a Phase Perfect too, have not used one personally but have never heard anything bad about them. Kudos to 4 FN 27 for getting what he wants out of life, even if it doesn't make sense to others, live and let live. If 3 phase was easy where I live I'd have it too. By the time you buy single phase new, convert 3 phase to single phase, or buy into converters, sometimes its just nice to get a bill from the power company who provides reliable power for a low monthly cost. I am wondering if Xcel takes care of you better because you have 3 phase. They are a pretty good company, I work with them daily and the general perception I get is that they really do try to take care of their customers.

Never heard of a Phase Perfect until I read this. That is what I love about this place...you can learn something. Took a brief look at their site. Interesting.

 

[Falcon67]

We could "probably" get it here because there are farms close by - like 250' or so - and we're on a co-op. The co-op is pretty accommodating, unlike AEP. But I'd not be willing to pay for the extra wire they would need to hang on the poles or the three transformers required, so for this shop it'd be a rotary.

 

[R7237]

Rotary Phase converter here. One recommendation I would have on a Rotary Phase Converter is to add a breaker panel on the outflow side. Not only will it let you split up the load for other machines, but also to give you a breaker to turn off the service to the machine. Two legs of the three will be hot when the phase converter is off, or at least that is the way mine is wired. American Rotary is the brand I went with and am happy with it and the service is excellent.