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30AMP breaker with 12AWG wire

TexasKen

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The main breaker box has a 30 AMP breaker that feeds (this wire is huge so I assume it is either 10 or 8 AWG - just can't see the wire label) to the detached garage where there is a "subpanel" with just the one 30AMP breaker. Coming out of the subpanel box is 12AWG wire feeding the outlets and lights. It has been like this for 50 years. I am about to do some rewiring in the garage and want to install a GFI outlet - can't find a 30AMP GFI outlet - is there such an animal or will using a 20AMP GFI work?
 
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alfredeneuman

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If the only breaker in the garage panel is a 30A, you need to change the breaker to a 20 Amp. You can't use a 20 Amp receptacle on a 30A circuit, and a #12 is proper for a 20A circuit

(The headquarters for The International Association of Electrical Inspectors is in Richardson, Tx :D)
 
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TexasKen

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Well, it took a while for me to get back around to fixing this. Decided to replace the sub panel since it is 58 yrs old and glad I did - turns out it was stab loc panel. Replaced and ran two new circuits from it, each with 5 outlets and a couple of LED lights.

New panel 2 20AMP circuits
08398d966eca0f018148708f860934f3.jpg

A couple of outlets
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sberry

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We should see in the panel and see how its wired. This is an equipment disconnect, not really a service panel.
 
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sberry

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What I did about electric panels is,,, when I started it was all jobbers with limited parts taking turns screwing who they could and like tools to some extent were limited to the trades.
I love the fact one can go in and set up 6 spaces off the shelf for parts in a few minutes for a HOM 6 space panel for under 20$, they nick you a dollar or 2 on a bar, for under 50 in parts can have brandy new stuff. Under 5 I believe yet for a breaker, a couple clamps and a cable to a plastic box and gfci and a guy has the best possible circuit, add another 49 cent outlet and a box as needed.
 

sberry

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I have a room above my office, by the way it has a couple circuits running thru it with outlets but I wanted to move a heater. I used a breaker space but vs piping from an existing was as simple to stick half a pipe and a handi box, didn't need gfci and was the only thing it went to.
It used to be more practical before gfci. They cost more than a circuit breaker. In a modern garage there is some cost incentive to do more outlets on one which is often a good thing, makes it way more simple.
GFCI is the great equalizer here except foor bonding of this box, even in the event of ground fault interruption with faulty wiring,,, at any point back to the service there is still fault protection.
I got a shock in a building off a farmer rigged get up, was all wired before gfci, he wired some **** absolutely faulty, not a clue why and it would have tripped for sure as ****, he energized a floating piece of equipment. He managed to interrupt the bond theru a cord and energize it at the same time with a 3 way in a handi box with a cord,,,, no ****.
At first I went wtf I asked, this place wired by a licenced guy with a permit and it was and it took me a bit to track down this thing he added as some kind of off on, he had used a 3 way instead of a single pole, managed to hook the ground wire to it. In frickin real.
 
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mm08822

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A 30 amp breaker on a 12 gauge circuit would only be acceptable if it was sized for the inrush current of a motor load.

Forget motor circuits here - n/a.

He fixed it by putting 2 two 20a cb's on the end of the #10/#8 (whatever) that is protected by a 1P30a cb. So the 12's hanging off of the 20's are fine.
 

nh_yota

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Forget motor circuits here - n/a.

He fixed it by putting 2 two 20a cb's on the end of the #10/#8 (whatever) that is protected by a 1P30a cb. So the 12's hanging off of the 20's are fine.

Oh I understand I was just providing additional information so people understand there are exceptions to the 12 gauge/20 amp rule.
 
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TexasKen

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thanks for the comments everyone and appreciate the help and advice.

Your screws aren't clocked!
- well it is a garage. I'll take care of this issue when I replace the plates after insulating and covering the wall in shiplap :thumbup:

any gfci recepts?
- yes - first outlet on each run is gfci

Shouldve put a 6 space panel for future stuff
- don't really need. I had an additional 100AMP subpanel added a few years ago that is on the other side of the garage. Just wanted to use this one for a few outlets to eliminate some wire runs.

We should see in the panel and see how its wired. This is an equipment disconnect, not really a service panel.
- to cold to go outside and get a picture. There is a 30AMP breaker inside the house that feeds this panel so if by chance I overload one day that breaker will trip.

here is the link to my Garage Gallery thread: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=347547&highlight=tinkerer
 

sberry

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It is a 30A load center, read it closer, says plain as day only for use with 240 breaker and no N provided, this would assume the OP understands mor has the proper input number of conductors and the N insulated and nutted together. BTW there Edison a water heater is a load.
 

sberry

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It says "Load Center" right on it. It's listed for the purpose it is being used for.

Another thing, would you be willing to sign on the line this is wired correctly? You just assume that from a panel with the cover on?
BTW to the OP, it about doesn't matter what breaker is on the other end, it could be a 60 for a 10 and up to a 100 in some sense if it was number 8. Its the 20's that protect the incoming wire from overload in this case.
The old version of this was a one armed bandit, hence 30A and not 20,,, but designed as a local disconnect for water heaters and fed with a 10 cable from 60A main lug feed thru on old fuse service entrance equipment.
 
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pattenp

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It is a 30A load center, read it closer, says plain as day only for use with 240 breaker and no N provided, this would assume the OP understands mor has the proper input number of conductors and the N insulated and nutted together. BTW there Edison a water heater is a load.

You are misreading the listing. The note is only for when used as 240V only. It's listed as 120V, 120V/240v, and 240V. The 240V only is marked with the note. Doesn't say neutral is not provided, it says not used.
 

sberry

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In garage services they were often used to feed air compressors and the welding machine would be wired to the 50A range fuses. Used them on occasion as feeds for wells on old residential.
 

alfredeneuman

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120Vac/-1ph 2W
120/240Vac/-1ph 3W
240Vac/-1ph 2W
It says plain as day that it will provide for ANY of these systems.

The triangle next to the "straight 240" system correlates to the triangle next to your instructions. :bounce:
 

sberry

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You could be right, do we still bet the OP wired it correctly? I wont argue it cant be wired safe but it should be done with some caution. I opened a panel the other day, beautiful work and wired wrong. If he wired it 130 would need the 30 breaker on a 10
 

sberry

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120Vac/-1ph 2W
120/240Vac/-1ph 3W
240Vac/-1ph 2W
It says plain as day that it will provide for ANY of these systems.

The triangle next to the "straight 240" system correlates to the triangle next to your instructions. :bounce:

You are correct upon reading it closer but the basic concern remains, we seem to be willing to accept the fact this is ok since we see the cover on, don't know if the main feeding it is 120 or 240, cant see the incoming wire or number of conductors.
Is the wire feeding it from 1958?
 
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sberry

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BTW I actually did spot the thingy after I looked at it again but didn't give a ****, we all know yall know and are direct decedents of Edison.
I am with wylie on the 6 space panel basically cause it has all the right bars in it for this type of circuit. I agree with the OP that he is highly unlikely to need more power since he didn't indicate he was going to start a machine shop at the end of this wire.
He gained a lot with this, proper breaker and getting rid of old wire and adding gfci. Huge improvement.
 
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sberry

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I think the OP did a fine job!
This isn't school class. Jeez....

Have you seen a pic under this cover? Unlike some other things we seem to find to worry about we see a problem with this on a regular basis by handyman, its not isolated and one of the main reason to do upgrade wo0rk is to fix any ambushes. The original install was faulty, if some aspects were copied may still have some of the same problems.
Maybe I am wrong, I can handle that but if I was giving a blessing to this would want to look.
 
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TexasKen

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Do you have more than one feed going into this detached garage?

short answer: basically yes

long answer: original to the house was a 30AMP breaker on the house panel that fed to the detached garage where this equipment disconnect/subpanel is located. This thread addresses its replacement and update.

additionally, a few years ago I had the meter moved from the house to the garage so that I could get the power line moved and wouldn't hang over the driveway. when the meter was installed on the garage I had the electrician install a 100AMP panel. that is where the majority of the garage power will be sourced from.

:thumbup:
 

alfredeneuman

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BTW I actually did spot the thingy after I looked at it again but didn't give a ****, we all know yall know and are direct decedents of Edison.

All I did was (correctly) point out that the panel qualified for more than a disconnect, and you started in on the name calling. That last one didn't make any sense. (did you mean to say descendant?).
 

sberry

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All I did was (correctly) point out that the panel qualified for more than a disconnect, and you started in on the name calling. That last one didn't make any sense. (did you mean to say descendant?).

I agree and I start that little argument at my own risk to cause enough **** so you wake the fuk up to all isnt dandy cause you see a pretty cover. Yall fuss over if he needs 100A and a good chance the piece he got aint wired right.
As I recall I actually did start to suggest that the neutrals were insulated here and pass thru and bond this to ground if it has enough conductors. I think I erased it. My guess is maybe someone converted it from an old dryer circuit as it may be 10 wire and a 30A breaker.
 

Angelfire

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short answer: basically yes

long answer: original to the house was a 30AMP breaker on the house panel that fed to the detached garage where this equipment disconnect/subpanel is located. This thread addresses its replacement and update.

additionally, a few years ago I had the meter moved from the house to the garage so that I could get the power line moved and wouldn't hang over the driveway. when the meter was installed on the garage I had the electrician install a 100AMP panel. that is where the majority of the garage power will be sourced from.

:thumbup:

This is against code (2 feeds to the detached garage). An easy solution would be to disconnect your 2 breaker panel from the house feed and run new wire over from the 100A on the other side of the garage.
 
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TexasKen

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Here is the inside picture everybody wants. I added the ground that runs through a pvc pipe down the wall and outside.

Sorry sigma_x, the screws are not clocked

Sberry, you are correct that the dryer was originally in the garage. There was an addition to the house in the 70's and a utility room was added and the dryer was moved inside. I'm now thinking that at that time the garage electric was updated and the old disconnect was not replaced.

aa9972e88bdaca7dc073126d491cf330.jpg


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