Between 705 & 1200 SQ/FT 31x36 Barn Project

[tealetm]

I've posted a few design related threads on this, but now that I'm officially starting the project I figured starting a build thread would be appropriate. I'm located in upstate NY in a busy town so zoning variences had to be granted (for building height and location) and I'll have to have regular inspections done. I plan on doing most of the work myself.

The building is going to have an overall footprint of 31x36, which is made up of a 20x36 heated shop area (woodworking mostly), and an enclosed 11x36 lean to storage area for my boat and tractor. The 20x36 portion will have 10' side walls with 9/12 scissor trusses and the enclosed overhang will simply have rafters set at 2/12 pitch. With setbacks and existing driveway locations, the size was limited to that footprint unfortunately but it should suffice for what I need.

I'll have electric to the building but no plumbing.

I'm going with a pole barn but in lieu of having the wood poles sunk directly in the ground I'm putting in concrete piers (12" sonotubes on top of 28" bigfoot bases). Studi-wall brackets will be wet set into the piers when I pour them and the 10' 6x6 posts will be anchored to them. I started digging for the piers over the weekend and got 8 out of the 22 bases set. Since I'm doing this project myself in my spare time I'll be doing the piers in steps a few at a time.

Lots of work putting the piers in, holes had to be dug significantly oversized due to rocks and layout. Backfilling with 57 stone is expensive but ensures good compaction and drainage. The 2 ton excavator I rented worked fine on the holes I've dug so far, but the remaining holes have large rocks and extremely hard soils about 3' down that I'll have to get a bigger machine and hammer for.

More to come, but its finally started!

 

[billconner]

Also from (way) upstate NY, diy - almost solo - a 28 x 32. More conventional foundation. Sounds like a great plan. The only drawback to sturdi wall is you may need some lateral bracing.

 

[tealetm]

From what I've read, the sturdi-wall brackets are the only type of bracket out there that provide moment support (similar to dropping posts straight into the holes). I'll be adding a few braces though, I have so much clean stone around the piers instead of virgin ground that it will make me sleep better at night.

The plan is to take tomorrow off to pouring 8 out of the 22 piers as well as dig the rest.

 

[billconner]

Researching this, the Perma- columns are very close to an embedded post, but I don't believe either the wet set or bolt in sturdi-wall brackets are nearly as strong. Whether they're strong enough is another question.

I'm fairly certain NY building and residential codes require post frame to have sealed drawings, so if you're in an area that requires permits and it's not an agricultural building that's exempt, let the registered design professional take responsibility.

 

[tealetm]

Yes- it’s a designed building and they don’t show anything to counter racking other than the embedded bases. Posts are fairly close together (most are around 7’ but some are less) so maybe the added posts make the moment strength. I’ll confirm.

 

[billconner]

That is close spacing and may make up the difference. I also don't know other details. NY is not a particularly high wind state, and metal siding gets credit. If your plans are by an engineer, I'd say you're fine.

Are the trusses only at the posts or in between as well?

The bony soil is a pita. I did a rubble trench foundation and there were just 2 stones - one large now at end of driveway, and one small one. Otherwise all 90% sand 10% loam.

 

[tealetm]

That is close spacing and may make up the difference. I also don't know other details. NY is not a particularly high wind state, and metal siding gets credit. If your plans are by an engineer, I'd say you're fine.

Are the trusses only at the posts or in between as well?

The bony soil is a pita. I did a rubble trench foundation and there were just 2 stones - one large now at end of driveway, and one small one. Otherwise all 90% sand 10% loam.

Trusses are actually 24 inches on center, I’m going with a shingled roof. I’m using scissor trusses as well. I’ll be doing bookshelf Gertz on the exterior walls, and have yet to determine what I’m going to do for siding (probably bird and batten over tyvek)

 

[tealetm]

Got 12 of the piers poured today. Lots of work when working by yourself!

I’ll dig the remaining piers tomorrow and pour them next week

 

[borgdog]

looking good.

where will final grade be in relation to the top of those piers?

 

[tealetm]

Final grade is high- it’s at the top of the sonotubes. The grade differs about 14” from one end to the other right now, on the opposite end from the picture grade is slightly above the piers. I have plenty of fill to bring it up on the one end.

 

[jblnut]

I like the SturdiWall brackets !! I have over 100 of them installed in three different buildings. Two of the buildings the brackets are set into a concrete wall that is 4' out of the ground with a 14' pole on top to give an 18' ceiling height. Those two are professionally engineered by a company that charged a s#*t pile of money to do so to make sure they don't blow over. The brackets are built to be as strong as a continuous post from what they told me.

I've got pictures of all three buildings in my gallery thread somewhere and can post more in here if you'd like. You'll be fine with them as long as you use all the bolt/screw holes.

They are not a new product but are sort of a new idea so lots of people by me questioned them. I priced the concrete piers that you add onto the posts and shipping was a killer so I did the pier setup like you're doing on my shop. I was able to use a post hole auger in my clay and can't imagine digging a huge hole for each of them !!!

What type of woodworking do you do ?

 

[billconner]

The brackets are built to be as strong as a continuous post from what they told me.

Did you see in "How do they fasten to the ground? Pole Barn vs. Steel building".

Quoted from the Sturdywall plus design manual.

"The standard Sturdi-wall brackets are designed to transfer uplift, shear, and downward forces from the wood post into the concrete foundation and can be installed wet set or post drilled anchors. The standard Studi-wall brackets do not have an ability to transfer any measurable moments from the wood columns to the concrete foundation."

You won't get the lateral bracing that embedding a post in the ground achieves. I acknowledge it may not always be needed and other means of lateral bracing if needed are fine.

 

[tealetm]

Agreed that the standard sturdy wall brackets (bolt down) do not resist moment forces however the sturdy wall plus brackets (embedded into the pier) do resist moment forces. Granted, I don’t have the calculations on how much moment force they each can resist but their data is available.

 

[jblnut]

Did you see in "How do they fasten to the ground? Pole Barn vs. Steel building".

You won't get the lateral bracing that embedding a post in the ground achieves. I acknowledge it may not always be needed and other means of lateral bracing if needed are fine.

I should have been more clear I guess in that I was referring to the Sturdi-Wall Plus brackets that are set into the concrete like the OP is using and not the drill and anchor ones. From what I've been told they are a positive connection into the concrete wall or pier like a post is

 

[Firebrick43]

Agreed that the standard sturdy wall brackets (bolt down) do not resist moment forces however the sturdy wall plus brackets (embedded into the pier) do resist moment forces. Granted, I don’t have the calculations on how much moment force they each can resist but their data is available.

They can take "some". Unfortunately the design manual doesn't allow you to copy or paste, so I have to type it all out. Further down, for the sturdi-wall plus, it states.

"The building must be designed to resist lateral loads through diaphragm action or other bracing means. SW and SWP are NOT an alternative to this requirement and are not recommended for columns that do not have a lateral restraint at top."

Link below.

Section 16 of the design manual.

 

[tealetm]

Understood.

I also neglected to say that the intermediate wall separating the heated and non heated areas will be sheathed providing additional shear strength in the long building dimension. I nor my engineer are concerned due to the sheathing and the frequency of the posts coupled with the “small” size of the building. I can always add further bracing as well.

Thanks for making me revisit the concern though!

 

[Firebrick43]

Understood.

I also neglected to say that the intermediate wall separating the heated and non heated areas will be sheathed providing additional shear strength in the long building dimension. I nor my engineer are concerned due to the sheathing and the frequency of the posts coupled with the “small” size of the building. I can always add further bracing as well.

Thanks for making me revisit the concern though!

I am sorry if I took some away from your thread. (A) I am not sure why/how I was quoted in this thread to begin with, it was from another thread brought over somehow?

(B) I am not questioning if/how your building is built. You posted plans so it would be safe to assume that your architech/engineer did their job. Its more to educate others that may "assume" that wood post and or permacolumns will perform the same as sturdi-wall brackets.

 

[billconner]

And I don't question you plans, just felt it was important to clarify the brackets - wet set or drill in - are not as strong as an embedded post.

And it an impressive project, from someone who is dyiing a large garage solo.

 

[tealetm]

No worries guys- this is the reason I enjoy posting on constructive forums. I learned how to rebuild vintage motorcycles by support in good forums so I do appreciate the feedback here which give me ideas and makes me double check my thought processes.

 

[tealetm]

Perimeter insulation is going in. 4” thick rigid laid vertical going 24” down from finish floor.

Couldn’t help but set the first pole today as well. These brackets are nice!

 

[tealetm]

Ready for the slab. Just need to lay down the 2” rigid, vapor barrier and #4 bar at 18” OC both ways. Ran a little shy in stone, so the slab will be about 6” versus 5”. Stone thickness ranges from 8-12” and compacted very nicely.

 

[tealetm]

 

[Paul_VR6]

Interesting pier design for sure. What is holding the skirt boards on?

 

[tealetm]

Skirt boards are made of three PT 2x6’s- two are vertical with the 24” vertical insulation board sandwiched in between them and the third is horizontal anchored to the top side of the piers. Think if an unpaid e down U shape with the foam in the middle. This serves a few purposes as it creates a rat board to keep critters from getting inside, an edge form for the slab and an outer nailer for the siding.

A bit more framing progress today:

 

[tealetm]

Some solo progress over the weekend. Got one window framed in, started the headers and plumbing up the columns before drilling and bolting them to the brackets. You can see the window opening on the adjacent wall in the photo.

The only new photo to post is the one my son took of me using the "death saw" as he calls it to cut notches in the columns so the outer header can be recessed in the post (and be better supported). The outer 2x10 header is recessed and the inner 2x10 header is flush mounted, then they are both through bolted with 1/2" carriage bolts leaving a flush outer edge for the siding to clear. I'll figure out how to trim out the inside later on. Debating on putting a top plate across the headers- no real reason for doing it but it would firm things up, give me an extra 1.5" of height and the only downside that I can think of is the cost the lumber. I'm using hurricane ties to fasten the trusses to the header so it doesn't have any impact on that either.

Drilling holes for the base anchor bolts to the columns is proving to be a challenge. The holes in the steel brackets are 5/8", the bolts are 1/2". Drilling through one side perfectly so it comes out the hole on the other side is nearly impossible, and there isn't enough wiggle room to use a larger bit for play in the bolt alignment. Lots of hogging out the wood seems to work but its a challenge for sure and I'm going to chew up a few drill bits. A 1/2" hole with a 1/2" bolt is tight enough as is let alone room for misalignment.

Slab is getting prepped today and hopefully poured tomorrow so that will be nice and will allow me to continue working off of a hard surface.

Trusses arrived late last week so I'd like to get these headers in this week and maybe start trusses next but we will see as my free time for this is limited.

Ordering rough cut board and batten siding today so it can air dry a little bit before installation. Also ordering the Haas 9x8 insulated garage door (8 week lead time). I went with a plain jane R-17.66 white garage door and will build a sliding "barn door" in front of it for looks instead of spending crazy money on a nice carriage style garage door.

 

[tealetm]

Slab is in! The guys battled a suprise rain shower but at the end of the day it came out looking great. After these photos they burned it one more time and the following morning added some control joints. This is the first building I'll ever have with a nice, flat concrete floor and I'm very excited about it- what an improvement over working in the dirt or on old wood barn floors.

 

[tealetm]

Getting headers all buttoned up and ready for trusses.

 

[tealetm]

Trusses went up this weekend. Three of us were able to get them up an in place by hand in a half a day (but I'm a little tired and sore!)

 

[tealetm]

Sheeted the whole roof, built gable overhangs and installed fascia.

3 man roofing crew was in and out in 7 hours.

 

[dmittz]

thank you for sharing your wonderful build. I love the roofline and that you used sizor trusses. It will be a very nice space when its done.

 

[tealetm]

 

[jarhead]

Nice looking building.

 

[mwbailey]

Great job; good luck.

 

[tealetm]

 

[tealetm]

About 150 feet of underground going in to feed the new hundred amp system a subpanel

 

[Weldman]

Glad you keep that hoe greased well, most think they run without it. Nice build, simple design.

 

[jcarapet]

The aesthetic is going to work really well with the setting. It's a good visual design and looks like a good chunk of space. Hope everything continues to go well.

 

[billspit]

I love your garage project. That is what is like to build, but would probably use a different foundation system.

 

[tealetm]

I’m more excited than I should be.

 

[tealetm]

insulated door went in today with a high lift kit to get a little more headroom when open.